Entreq Tellus grounding

[spiritofmusic]

Devert, I guess Barry saw your comments re insinuating snake oil, and assumed you were staying clear. In addition to your hint that maybe the effects of Entreq not being easily explained by standard laws of physics. Unless you're open minded to see if your reservations could be challenged, or have a broad sense of humour and are cool to try stuff. No hope for Purite Keith I'm afraid.
In my opinion, I think it's been a massive drawback that this stuff is described in terms of grounding, esp re the ambiguity confusing it w/the electrical ground installation that can't be interfered w/re safety. I'm not sure what term could have been used, but I'm sure for every potential buyer who's open to the concept, there's another who can't get past their skepticism/confusion w/traditional function of electrical grounding. Maybe "impedance matching", or "electrical/RF/EMI sump drainage" might have been more unambiguous (although not as snappy as "grounding").

 

[dmnc02]

In my opinion, I think it's been a massive drawback that this stuff is described in terms of grounding, esp re the ambiguity confusing it w/the electrical ground installation that can't be interfered w/re safety. I'm not sure what term could have been used, but I'm sure for every potential buyer who's open to the concept, there's another who can't get past their skepticism/confusion w/traditional function of electrical grounding. Maybe "impedance matching", or "electrical/RF/EMI sump drainage" might have been more unambiguous (although not as snappy as "grounding").

The possibility that impedance matching is part of what the Entreq does is perhaps supported by the observation that connection to an input or an output makes a very significant difference.

Yesterday I had the two Apollo earth cables connected to a line stage input (the one between the two that I use for the phono stage and DAC). Today I tried moving the earth cables to one of the two outputs of the line stage (I only use one) and I did not like the result.

Comparisons that require disconnecting and reconnecting the earth cables are a bit tricky, since it takes some time for the effect of the Entreq to build up again, but this seems to be a much faster process if the cables are only disconnected for a few seconds (the time to move the connection from one spot to another).

 

[mauidan]

Devert, I guess Barry saw your comments re insinuating snake oil, and assumed you were staying clear. In addition to your hint that maybe the effects of Entreq not being easily explained by standard laws of physics. Unless you're open minded to see if your reservations could be challenged, or have a broad sense of humour and are cool to try stuff. No hope for Purite Keith I'm afraid.
In my opinion, I think it's been a massive drawback that this stuff is described in terms of grounding, esp re the ambiguity confusing it w/the electrical ground installation that can't be interfered w/re safety. I'm not sure what term could have been used, but I'm sure for every potential buyer who's open to the concept, there's another who can't get past their skepticism/confusion w/traditional function of electrical grounding. Maybe "impedance matching", or "electrical/RF/EMI sump drainage" might have been more unambiguous (although not as snappy as "grounding").

I have an open mind when it comes to audio tweeks, but I'm still trying to understand how these passive boxes work, so once again:

Has anyone measured the resistance of the Entreq grounding boxes with a ground resistance meter/tester and compared that measurement to the ground resistance of their AC mains?

If the Entreq is not providing a lower resistance ground path, and the signal ground connection you're using to connect your component to the Entreq is also connected to the IEC's AC safety ground, why would your component use a ground path that has higher resistance?

Found this on the net:

In television stations, recording studios, and other installations where sound quality is critical, a special signal ground known asa "technical ground" (or "technical earth", "special earth" and "audio earth") is often installed, to prevent groundloops. This is basically the same thing as an AC power ground, but no general appliance ground wires are allowed any connection to it, as they may carryelectrical interference. For example only audio equipment is connected to the technical ground in a recording studio.
In most cases, the studio's metal equipment racks are all joined together with heavy copper cables (or flattenedc opper tubing or busbars) and similar connections are made to the technical ground. Great care is taken that no general chassis grounded appliances areplaced on the racks, as a single AC ground connection to the technical ground will destroy its effectiveness. For particularly demanding applications, themain technical ground may consist of a heavy copper pipe, if necessary fitted by drilling through several concrete floors, such that all technical grounds maybe connected by the shortest possible path to a grounding rod in the basement.

I'd love to try one of the Entreq boxes, but there's no dealer in my area.

BTW, my name is Dan.

 

[spiritofmusic]

dmnc02, as w/all things, YMMV. I have ground leads connected to spare INPUT jacks on source components and preamp that I'm grounding. All excellent. Haven't tried output jacks on these, may well be a variable result. SET monos are grounded via the spare output jacks. The only exception to this is my Straingauge cart energiser box (sim to phono stage), where a spade-spade lead shares the ground terminal w/the ground lead of my phono cable. This recipe seems to work for me.
I've just invested in a dual mono preamp, and am waiting for a second Apollo, atm my preamp is back to being ungrounded. And then finally grounding my Zu sub amps.
Don't get too urgent re a-b comparisons, try a variation, get used to it. Switch connections, and again take your time to compare changes.

Dan, can't help you w/your measurement query, but if it helps, Entreq do suggest grounding the rack as well, to form a Faraday Cage effect, and this is paralleled in your description of studio metal equipment racks being grounded back to a ground post. How many users go this far, prob not many, but the possibility remains.
It may v.well be that Entreq grounding is a domestic equivalent of this "technical ground".

Tbh, skepticism based on the physics of all this is reasonable, just not the tired arguments played out re listener bias placebo.
Contact the US Stillpoints dealer, a trial could be poss.

 

[dmnc02]

Found this on the net:

In television stations, recording studios, and other installations where sound quality is critical, a special signal ground known asa "technical ground" (or "technical earth", "special earth" and "audio earth") is often installed, to prevent groundloops. This is basically the same thing as an AC power ground, but no general appliance ground wires are allowed any connection to it, as they may carryelectrical interference. For example only audio equipment is connected to the technical ground in a recording studio.
In most cases, the studio's metal equipment racks are all joined together with heavy copper cables (or flattenedc opper tubing or busbars) and similar connections are made to the technical ground. Great care is taken that no general chassis grounded appliances areplaced on the racks, as a single AC ground connection to the technical ground will destroy its effectiveness. For particularly demanding applications, themain technical ground may consist of a heavy copper pipe, if necessary fitted by drilling through several concrete floors, such that all technical grounds maybe connected by the shortest possible path to a grounding rod in the basement.

That's what I meant yesterday when I mentioned the Entreq possibly being similar to a recording studio technical ground.

dmnc02, as w/all things, YMMV. I have ground leads connected to spare INPUT jacks on source components and preamp that I'm grounding. All excellent. Haven't tried output jacks on these, may well be a variable result. SET monos are grounded via the spare output jacks. The only exception to this is my Straingauge cart energiser box (sim to phono stage), where a spade-spade lead shares the ground terminal w/the ground lead of my phono cable. This recipe seems to work for me.
I've just invested in a dual mono preamp, and am waiting for a second Apollo, atm my preamp is back to being ungrounded. And then finally grounding my Zu sub amps.
Don't get too urgent re a-b comparisons, try a variation, get used to it. Switch connections, and again take your time to compare changes.

My point was that if impedance matching is part of what is going on, as you suggested, then connections should only work to input or outputs, but not both.

 

[mauidan]

That's what I meant yesterday when I mentioned the Entreq possibly being similar to a recording studio technical ground.

Unless you're floating all of your components/PLCs from AC ground, it's not the same.

 

[dmnc02]

Unless you're floating all of your components/PLCs from AC ground, it's not the same.

Agreed: similar to, not the same.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm going to bow out of this specific tech consideration. Happy to help w/experiences, as are others. Hoping our US cousins like Christian chime in more as time progresses. Get a trial!

 

[Barry2013]

I have an open mind when it comes to audio tweeks, but I'm still trying to understand how these passive boxes work, so once again:

Has anyone measured the resistance of the Entreq grounding boxes with a ground resistance meter/tester and compared that measurement to the ground resistance of their AC mains?

If the Entreq is not providing a lower resistance ground path, and the signal ground connection you're using to connect your component to the Entreq is also connected to the IEC's AC safety ground, why would your component use a ground path that has higher resistance?

Found this on the net:

In television stations, recording studios, and other installations where sound quality is critical, a special signal ground known asa "technical ground" (or "technical earth", "special earth" and "audio earth") is often installed, to prevent groundloops. This is basically the same thing as an AC power ground, but no general appliance ground wires are allowed any connection to it, as they may carryelectrical interference. For example only audio equipment is connected to the technical ground in a recording studio.
In most cases, the studio's metal equipment racks are all joined together with heavy copper cables (or flattenedc opper tubing or busbars) and similar connections are made to the technical ground. Great care is taken that no general chassis grounded appliances areplaced on the racks, as a single AC ground connection to the technical ground will destroy its effectiveness. For particularly demanding applications, themain technical ground may consist of a heavy copper pipe, if necessary fitted by drilling through several concrete floors, such that all technical grounds maybe connected by the shortest possible path to a grounding rod in the basement.

I'd love to try one of the Entreq boxes, but there's no dealer in my area.

BTW, my name is Dan.

Your earlier comments about snake oil and Sweden really didn't help your position.
Atmasphere back in April of this year tried to do a similar test with voltmeters and had only a limited response so as I recall he was not able to draw any definitive conclusions, but I am sure he could tell you more.
I am content to rely on my ears and the practical experience of others worldwide who have all reported significant and clearly audible improvements in the sound quality of their varied systems. In fact I am not aware of anybody who has tried the Entreq grounding reporting negative results in this or any other forums I have seen.
Have you considered asking your dealer to try and arrange a trial with Stillpoints?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, I'm going to have to step off, this is monopolising space here. I do wonder why you spend time banging on about this. Doubly ironic since none of us here would deny your argument that spkr/room acoustics/interaction is pretty pivotal, and that your room really doesn't serve your Liszts well. It's great you don't hear differences w/expensive PCs and grounding/power. I would love this to have been the case w/me, the extra cash saved would have been useful. And by your own admission, Trinnov which digitises the sound and reproduces a flat in-room response at your premises caused a fair number of your visitors to run for the hills, w/a treble heavy uninvolving end result.
Measurements alone would drive me to the Halcro/Devialet/digital only/B&W/Yamaha camp, and I'd rather give up listening to music (no disrespect intended to devotees of these brands :b) if I was forced to run this kind of system.
If you were really consistent w/your view, you would be going down Ked's route, i.e. DSP adjusted multichannel, w/minimal room adjustments. No, you have your own solution to peddle (understandable, we are all "defending" our positions), which is ultra expensive horn loudspeakers and radical room expenditure.
Nothing left for me to contribute to this blind alley of an argument, over and out Keith.

 

[microstrip]

Marc, , Dirac and Grimm all use DSP ( digital signal processing ), the ideal would always be a 'perfect' room and some Cessaro customers have the means and have gone to those lengths , for most of us we have to try and make the most of what we have.
Keith.

Since you are an experienced dealer why don't you create your own thread describing your own experiences and your customer systems, as well as their and your findings? We would appreciate it.

 

[rockitman]

The Entreq grounding boxes should never be attached to either of the speaker output terminals of an amplifier.

I would like to assume that I could plug a tellus into the spare rca inputs of my mono block power amps ? I currently use the XLR in's for my music signal from the main pre. I ask this as my 2 Silver Tellus' and 6 atlantis cables arrive tomorrow. I know the positive effect on my preamp and phono stage from my demo, but was unable to try it with the amps. I plan to try the amps first to see if I hear improvement there prior to connecting my other components. I just want to make sure it is okay to do so. My gut instincts say yes.

 

[dmnc02]

I would like to assume that I could plug a tellus into the spare rca inputs of my mono block power amps ? I currently use the XLR in's for my music signal from the main pre. I ask this as my 2 Silver Tellus' and 6 atlantis cables arrive tomorrow. I know the positive effect on my preamp and phono stage from my demo, but was unable to try it with the amps. I plan to try the amps first to see if I hear improvement there prior to connecting my other components. I just want to make sure it is okay to do so. My gut instincts say yes.

Hopefully somebody with direct experience will post here, but there is a user on another forum who has reported connecting his Krell amp to a Silver Tellus. I will PM you the link so that you can email him to confirm. Unfortunately, this is not an option with my amps as they have a single XLR input.

I will try the Atlantis cables next week. This thing keeps getting better and better.

 

[LL21]

I would like to assume that I could plug a tellus into the spare rca inputs of my mono block power amps ? I currently use the XLR in's for my music signal from the main pre. I ask this as my 2 Silver Tellus' and 6 atlantis cables arrive tomorrow. I know the positive effect on my preamp and phono stage from my demo, but was unable to try it with the amps. I plan to try the amps first to see if I hear improvement there prior to connecting my other components. I just want to make sure it is okay to do so. My gut instincts say yes.

Better qualified people than i should answer this. HOwever, what i CAN say is that if you wish to hook your amp to Silver Tellus via a grounding screw...or any chassis screw that grounds the unit, i am told that is fine. I have spoken with both Entreq Distributor and the founder of Tripoint about this. You need to find a screw which could act as a ground (not all do)...and your manufacturer would easily be able to tell you.

In my case, i emailed Gryphon and cc'd Tripoint to make sure a novice like me did not electrocute myself...but it turned out there are no exposed screws on the Gryphon which act as grounds (there practically are no exposed screws actually). So i do not have the Gryphon connected to Tripoint...but the rest of the electronics are.

 

[Barry2013]

John's earlier post raised no problem with two earth leads for dual monos and previously you used two on your dual mono phono stage with beneficial results so I can see no problems with what you propose.
One for each mono block power amplifier is completely logical and should give good results. and I can see no safety issues using the spare RCA inputs.

 

[accwai]

Better qualified people than i should answer this. HOwever, what i CAN say is that if you wish to hook your amp to Silver Tellus via a grounding screw...or any chassis screw that grounds the unit, i am told that is fine. I have spoken with both Entreq Distributor and the founder of Tripoint about this. You need to find a screw which could act as a ground (not all do)...and your manufacturer would easily be able to tell you. [...]

Has anybody with the necessary cables actually compared signal vs chassis grounding on the Entreq?

I have a Silver Tellus coming. Was supposed to arrive yesterday but the tracking website now says delayed due to severe weather and rescheduled to Monday . I'm using an "integrated amp" which in reality is nothing more than a stereo power amp with dual mono volume control. No spare input. No ground post either, but the entire top plate is grounded. So one of the screws up there should work. Hooking into the signal ground would likely be much more convoluted--e.g. putting a metal shim under the one of the input sockets or perhaps have one of the interconnect cables modified to include a 3.5mm grounding socket just those on the Entreq cables. I'm wondering if it's worth the effort though.

In fact, a few days ago I took out my ancient multimeter and measured the resistance between grounds on input sockets, the chassis and the ground pin of the power socket. On all my components, resistance among the three is trivial. So in essence they are all directly connected to each other. And once the Tellus box is in place, it will be tied to the ground of the house as well.

In any case, really looking forward to trying out the Tellus box.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have a couple of Apollo ground leads (spade-spade) connected to spare spkr cable output terminals on each of my SET mono blocks (each sporting a pair for 8 Ohms, and a pair for 16 Ohms). If it wasn't for having 2 pairs per amp, I would be stuck on connections.
No comment on chassis grounding, I'm actively not investigating this option. Lloyd is your man on this.

 

[dmnc02]

Although I believe Lloyd is using a Troy, which was specifically designed with chassis grounding in mind.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dmnc, like all things in the high end, one has to set limits as to how far one will venture/spend cash. At the time I first delved into grounding, the Summer of 2014, Entreq in the UK was really the only option, both in terms of availability for trial (Troy has since got UK distribution), and cost (my chosen initial configuration of Silver Tellus ad single Apollo lead being 20% the price of sim Troy set up). At this point where I have grounded another 4 components, I'm still well below Troy entry ticket. Since this point, my set up now is that I've got a fantastic boost combining Entreq, my Burmester 948 conditioner, and Westwick 8kVA balanced transformer, which in total equates to the cost of Troy. I'm pretty much exhausted in terms of funds for more grounding, but am still curious re grounding the mains via Entreq Cleanus to my transformer. No way can I go to a whole round of chassis grounding too. But that's just me. Tbh, if your funds/patience can stretch to a-b'ing signal v chassis grounding, you should go for it.

 

[dmnc02]

Spirit, I am not advocating the Troy (which I have not heard) over the Entreq: I made my choice.

All that I meant to say is that positive results with chassis grounding using the Troy (which was designed with chassis grounding in mind) do not necessarily apply to the Entreq (which was designed with signal grounding in mind). I used to think (before getting the Entreq) that grounding is grounding, but after playing with my unit and experiencing how sensitive it is to the choice of a specific grounding point, I am not so sure.

I will most likely try at some point to connect the grounding post of my TT and a chassis screw of some component to the Entreq, just to exhaust all the possibilities, but I have the feeling that this is not necessarily going to be beneficial with the Entreq.