Mike, I and I am sure many others continue to look forward to your detailed comparison of the Tosca and the Telos Sapphire.
finally updated my system page......
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
i think many can chose to buy things, but don't make that choice. we can't judge people's situation by the gear they own. saying i can afford it sends the wrong message, so i added 'choose to'. it's hard earned assets we use to acquire our toys.
Mike, I'm sure we get that. Likely I would have struggled to justify the $60k+ (tt/packaging/shipping/tax) the Saskia II would have demanded 3 years ago when I was seriously considering it, and would not have done it justice by not being able to run it with a commensurate quality arm.
And in some ways I feel happier from a holistic point of view in not top loading my spending in the last 3 years 99% into just the tt.
Not a problem you have. You can do it proper justice. Are you looking at a Taiko Tana to support/isolate the Saskia? Can the Herzan within the Tana cope w 250kg of slate?
And in some ways I feel happier from a holistic point of view in not top loading my spending in the last 3 years 99% into just the tt.
Not a problem you have. You can do it proper justice. Are you looking at a Taiko Tana to support/isolate the Saskia? Can the Herzan within the Tana cope w 250kg of slate?
I believe Mr. Lavigne will stretch for that last inch. Its his drive for that last bit that gets my two thumbs up.
Tang
I believe Mr. Lavigne will stretch for that last inch. Its his drive for that last bit that gets my two thumbs up.
Tang
it's a question whether the motor and motor mount design of the Saskia II will be 'active' friendly. the motor on some turntables (the AS-2000 for instance based on Christian's experience) throws off vibrations which cause a continuous feedback loop to the active sensors. the NVS obviously is not one of those.
the Saskia II has the Pabst motor mounted to the lower plinth. impossible to predict how much vibration it has, or how that vibration propagates into that lower plinth and feet of that plinth. the good news is i have a Tana shelf sitting right there (under the NVS) to try it with and so it won't cost me anything other than the beer i need to feed some strong helpers to move the tt's around to investigate.
the weight capacity of the TS-140 Tana shelf is 330 pounds so not an issue.
i do hope it does work as that would boost the performance by a considerable margin. but my expectations is about a 33% chance of that.
The main reservations I heard about the Saskia was the possibility of all that mass loaded slate (200kg+) creating some kind of colouration in the sound.
What I've found w my tt which runs a 25kg slate plinth on 95kg slate Stacore isolation platform on 50kg inert slate single-tier stand ie 170kg of combined slate, is very much the opposite. My tt sound is really on the neutral, uncoloured, transparent end of the spectrum.
Mike, I would strongly encourage you to reach out to Jarek of Stacore. I'm sure he could provide a totally amazing slate-based isolation solution to this potentially amazing tt. After 2 years, I can totally vouch for my Stacore Adv platform under my tt, has been one of the most critical upgrades in my system, and wholly positive here.
What I've found w my tt which runs a 25kg slate plinth on 95kg slate Stacore isolation platform on 50kg inert slate single-tier stand ie 170kg of combined slate, is very much the opposite. My tt sound is really on the neutral, uncoloured, transparent end of the spectrum.
Mike, I would strongly encourage you to reach out to Jarek of Stacore. I'm sure he could provide a totally amazing slate-based isolation solution to this potentially amazing tt. After 2 years, I can totally vouch for my Stacore Adv platform under my tt, has been one of the most critical upgrades in my system, and wholly positive here.
to my ears i heard no penalty from the mass of slate in the Saskia, in fact the opposite. i agree.
if the Tana is a no go for the Saskia we will see. likely i might try the Daiza platorm with footers (assuming those footers can handle that weight capacity) first and see if that is an uptick. the Daiza already sitting there used on top of the Tana would work for that to try. next it's possible that Stacore Basic+ would be a choice; it has the weight capacity and size required. i could see trying that.
That's totally inaccurate and false information Mike!
You wouldn't be able to listen to the turntable if the AS or any other turntable's motor put out that much vibration on any platform. Christian came away with the same negative results with his AF1that only has a tiny and very well isolated motor. I've gone over it in many threads here which started way before the AS2000 was even a design concept, it's basic physics this type of active platform is simply the wrong tool for this job and IMO for audio use in general. He only bought the 2nd large unit based on your advice and insistence in-spite of his earlier experience. We had this conversation too, for most of us it's basic common sense not to put put a jiggly, vibrating platform with a ringing top under a turntable. This is your infatuation with this product and having it under your NVS doesn't make it a reference nor other products flawed!
david
David, i respectfully disagree. but you are 100% correct in that we don't need to re-hash old subjects. so let's just see what happens.
We can disagree Mike but fact remains that this particular platform wasn't designed for audio and turntables. It's top platform rings like crazy and you have no control over how or what it reacts to or tune what it does. It works by constantly introducing vibration and resonance into the system based on their sensor inputs reacting to who know's what from a turntable or any else. Such a great tool Mike that you had to all that time and money on Taiko products and various footers and tweaks just to counter it's full effect on equipment. Facts are facts.
david
Mike,
Interesting, but hard to believe. Are you saying that vibration coming from the load on top of active tables can create a continuous feedback loop? Just asking about the technical aspects, not the subjective performance.
I remember the manufacturer of one of the active platforms, not designed originally for audio use, saying something similar. He was delighted to find a new market, but stated that the ringing aluminum platform would have to be re-designed to make the active suitable for audio use.
The audiophiles feeding-frenzied before the fact, hungering to anoint the new status grail.
ok. really did not want to go here. but no avoiding it now. neither of you is going away.
the piezo electric sensors don't know where the resonance is coming from. they sense it and then the piezo electric actuators compensate for that resonance.
note that the top plate of Christian's larger NDW Herzan workstation with the AVI system is quite different than my TS unit. that top plate is much, much larger, and less precise than my units. and that top plate is not contained in a heavy duty chassis, it's free floating. i can't comment on David's comments that it rings......it very well might. in any case, we now know that system was not a good match for the AS-2000, or maybe any hifi application. this is old news. my experience with the Herzan TS units did not project to these NDW-AVI units as it appeared it should.
further, regarding the 'ringing' David mentions. the Tana units have a top plate that is tapped and there is an added 10mm top layer of panzerholtz. i can't say exactly how this works as Emile designed it. but the performance of the Tana is much beyond the stock Herzan TS units. of course, there is also the great LPS that was added to the Tana.
getting back to the issue of resonance from a turntable motor, in the case of a belt drive turntable with a free standing motor unit like the AS-2000 or others the enclosures these motors are in are not equally designed to eliminate resonance. whereas the separate plinth and platter are well protected from resonance. whatever resonance might exist in the casework of these motor boxes will be picked up by the top plate of an active device and cause a compensating action to offset the resonance. so there will be added resonance from a feedback loop. not only will this add noise, but it will eventually burn out the actuators.
some (belt driven, idler and direct drive) turntables will not allow any resonance to get to the turntable feet and transfer it to the top plate. but every case might be different. i know i'm not the only one successfully using a Tana system under their turntable.
i've had multiple cases of asking local friends to listen to my system with and without the Tana, both for my amps and my NVS. there was no hesitation as to the result. i've recently posted about it. i respect that David has his opinion and observation of Christian's situation. i have no illusions of changing his mind.....on.....anything....ever. so be it.
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ok. really did not want to go here. but no avoiding it now. neither of you is going away.
the piezo electric sensors don't know where the resonance is coming from. they sense it and then the piezo electric actuators compensate for that resonance.
note that the top plate of Christian's larger NDW Herzan workstation with the AVI system is quite different than my TS unit. that top plate is much, much larger, and less precise than my units. and that top plate is not contained in a heavy duty chassis, it's free floating. i can't comment on David's comments that it rings......it very well might. in any case, we now know that system was not a good match for the AS-2000, or maybe any hifi application. this is old news. my experience with the Herzan TS units did not project to these NDW-AVI units as it appeared it should.
getting back to the issue of resonance from a turntable motor, in the case of a belt drive turntable with a free standing motor unit like the AS-2000 or others the enclosures these motors are in are not equally designed to eliminate resonance. whereas the separate plinth and platter are well protected from resonance. whatever resonance might exist in the casework of these motor boxes will be picked up by the top plate of an active device and cause a compensating action to offset the resonance. so there will be added resonance from a feedback loop. not only will this add noise, but it will eventually burn out the actuators.
some (belt driven, idler and direct drive) turntables will not allow any resonance to get to the turntable feet and transfer it to the top plate. but every case might be different. i know i'm not the only one successfully using a Tana system under their turntable.
i've had multiple cases of asking local friends to listen to my system with and without the Tana, both for my amps and my NVS. there was no hesitation as to the result. i've recently posted about it. i respect that David has his opinion and observation of Christian's situation. i have no illusions of changing his mind.....on.....anything....ever. so be it.
Ok, I see. You are saying that active tables are not appropriate for turntables where the separate motor drains its energy to its support and the table top. IMHO it makes sense, I would never use an active table with the AF1, unless I had permanent micro-earthquake problems.
People do not realize that sometimes a slightly vibrating motor can be a good thing - it is dissipating energy, that otherwise would be sent to the platter.
BTW, the use of the word feedback must be used with care in active tables. Intrinsically all active tables always use feedback - what we are addressing are the different feedback paths in different turntable designs when used with active tables.
The NVS has the best motor/platter configuration to potentially benefit from active isolation.
It will be interesting to get Mike’s take on active isolation on the new table. On first glance it’s unlikely to work as well. It may be different and it may be preferable. Only by trying will we know.
It will be interesting to get Mike’s take on active isolation on the new table. On first glance it’s unlikely to work as well. It may be different and it may be preferable. Only by trying will we know.
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