I don't think he is that crazy, he would have just put 7 SME arms on it. Conservative tango
finally updated my system page......
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
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I don't think he is that crazy, he would have just put 7 SME arms on it. Conservative tango
Well, we keep reading what we want to read and interpret it as we want - the very few data points we have are too biased to be of any help to create general theories on sound quality of drive systems or topologies.
And yes, I fully agree on you that there is a lot more in turntable design than the drive system.
BTW, I have found that many times "sense of drive and propulsion" is a nice way of saying truncated low bass and some exagerated peaks in mid bass.
Micro, and I've heard way more lumpy bass in belt drives than I ever have done in idlers/rim drives or DDs.
Those exaggerations you state never suggest to me greater propulsion, indeed they normally signify less drive and more sluggishness.
Idlers can be accused of a sense of euphonic colouration. I've heard one modded 301 that was a bit bloomy, but a few more that were pretty insistent. Here, plinth material and isolation may make the difference.
Full circle back to drive topology maybe not being THE critical factor.
But for me at least, I've only heard the drive and palpability from my rim drive in one belt drive, the Vyger. Other contenders just lacked something (TW Acustic AC3, AMG Viella, Linn Sondek, Roksan Xerxes and TMS, SME 20).
And it may be the SOTA 3 way air isolation system of the Vyger which now supercedes the drive topology alone in being most critical, meaning air/belt trumps non air/idler.
And it helps that Vyger ticks every other box going, incl a very fancy LT air arm.
Now, an idler-drive Vyger, that would be quite something...
Those exaggerations you state never suggest to me greater propulsion, indeed they normally signify less drive and more sluggishness.
Idlers can be accused of a sense of euphonic colouration. I've heard one modded 301 that was a bit bloomy, but a few more that were pretty insistent. Here, plinth material and isolation may make the difference.
Full circle back to drive topology maybe not being THE critical factor.
But for me at least, I've only heard the drive and palpability from my rim drive in one belt drive, the Vyger. Other contenders just lacked something (TW Acustic AC3, AMG Viella, Linn Sondek, Roksan Xerxes and TMS, SME 20).
And it may be the SOTA 3 way air isolation system of the Vyger which now supercedes the drive topology alone in being most critical, meaning air/belt trumps non air/idler.
And it helps that Vyger ticks every other box going, incl a very fancy LT air arm.
Now, an idler-drive Vyger, that would be quite something...
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where i'm really curious about the Saskia II is whether it can do large scale music as effortlessly as the NVS. the neutrality and linearity of the NVS (my opinion about that, of course) allows the music to just go and go. i push harder, it just soars. it never limits me. the bass hangs together and images stay coherent....the music always organized and with ease and authority.
is it as sexy as other tt's? in it's own linear way.....yes.....i think so. a truth machine.
Isn't "pushing harder" more a function of amps and amps/spkrs/room synergy? Rather than of the source?
sure; the whole system and room have to be up to the task.
but a source that is (1) non linear, and (2) mechanical and subject to feedback from high SPL's will, at some point, go toward chaos as the fur flies. does the feeling of the music continue to get more involving as you push it.....or does it push back? or bite back?
That's why you need to get that isolation sorted.
The perfect opportunity to compare Tana v Daiza on inert stand.
The perfect opportunity to compare Tana v Daiza on inert stand.
I heard that first para on NVS exactly the way you describe it. Every word resonates
Mike, for what it's worth, there's a fantastic balance of attributes running an insistent rhythmn machine like an idler, with a hugely neutral fast arm like a LT.
I could easily see Saskia paired w something like Schroeder LT or Thales Statement combining verve, soul and pure enlightenment.
I couldn't imagine being parted from my rim drive/air LT combo.
I could easily see Saskia paired w something like Schroeder LT or Thales Statement combining verve, soul and pure enlightenment.
I couldn't imagine being parted from my rim drive/air LT combo.
we just don't know these things in the context of my expectations. linear tracking is no panacea and we can't say it would overcome an as yet unknown/unlikely turntable coloration.
my only reason to bring it up is it's a significant issue for me and really is at the heart of why i went to the trouble to build my room to begin with. i expect the Saskia to have no problem, but don't take it for granted.
Mike, we all make decisions that lead to other decisions, and either get side tracked/fail, or find solutions/directions that strike a chord.
For me, my future until 2005 was gonna be an SME30, Musical Fidelity Kilowatt monos driving ML Prodigy panels. Ie uber neutral belt drive, megawatts driving hugely inefficient non SET friendly behemoths. In 2005, I really thought I was gonna love all this when I got it...
...A year later I bought my first tube product, Hovland HP200 preamp, which pushed me twds uber tube friendly Zus, thence to medium pwr SETs. And looked back on 2005 w wry amusement...
...And in 2013, after having heard a few idlers on top of stacks of belt drives over two decades, realised that my deep passion for the tonally dense and saturated sound of tubes w full range high efficiency spkrs, made idler the natural choice. Finally settling on my rim drive choice. With the added bonus of the air LT arm that came w it.
You're coming to Saskia after a period of using idlers in the past. I'm sure your fond memories of the insistent, vervey, dense Dobbins 301 sound is part of the decision.
For me, my future until 2005 was gonna be an SME30, Musical Fidelity Kilowatt monos driving ML Prodigy panels. Ie uber neutral belt drive, megawatts driving hugely inefficient non SET friendly behemoths. In 2005, I really thought I was gonna love all this when I got it...
...A year later I bought my first tube product, Hovland HP200 preamp, which pushed me twds uber tube friendly Zus, thence to medium pwr SETs. And looked back on 2005 w wry amusement...
...And in 2013, after having heard a few idlers on top of stacks of belt drives over two decades, realised that my deep passion for the tonally dense and saturated sound of tubes w full range high efficiency spkrs, made idler the natural choice. Finally settling on my rim drive choice. With the added bonus of the air LT arm that came w it.
You're coming to Saskia after a period of using idlers in the past. I'm sure your fond memories of the insistent, vervey, dense Dobbins 301 sound is part of the decision.
Marc, i respect that you developed your expectations over time like me. and that it led you to rim drive and linear tracking.....with tubes. i recall almost 20 years ago myself switching from Levinson/Wilson to Kharma/Tenor....then belts to direct drive/linear tracking....then to where i've been since.
i'm not 100% sure where i'd fit my Dobbins 301 experience into my hifi viewpoint....it's somewhere. and it does make me smile. hoping for more of that from the Saskia.
i'm not 100% sure where i'd fit my Dobbins 301 experience into my hifi viewpoint....it's somewhere. and it does make me smile. hoping for more of that from the Saskia.
Marc,
This is the kind of argument that does not prove anything. IMHO our limited negative experiences do not prove anything. You refer to belt drives as if they were a defined class of turntables - nothing more wrong IMHO. There is diversity enough in belt drives - suspension, structure, motor, type of belt, speed correction to foreclose such analysis. Perhaps idler drives have less variables, they seem to share all the same basic points.
There are so many "sliding doors" moments in audio. Like the mid 80s when I heard the Meridian 207Pro and M20 active spkrs, and got ready to sell all of my 500 lps and replace them w cds...
...and then went to audition a Linn LP12/Naim active system.
Mike, for me idler/rim drive is a totally special way to listen to music. Trading the ultimate transparency and neutrality of the best air suspension belt drive for more incision, assertiveness and "the notes".
Now, if Saskia can keep 100% of idler hypnoticness and add more "see thru", it will be v special indeed.
For me, I've really maxxed out my more modest tt w the Stacore Adv/additional massy slate stand, bespoke motor psu, mag lev platter and feet, and Symposium Svelte isolation of drive wheel pod, and this has dramatically added authority and transparency. Indeed, the Stacore is so integral to the sound I class it as part of the tt, not an add on or tweak. Mike, that's why I'd ask you to seriously consider this direction yself, I cannot imagine it would be anything other than stellar.
...and then went to audition a Linn LP12/Naim active system.
Mike, for me idler/rim drive is a totally special way to listen to music. Trading the ultimate transparency and neutrality of the best air suspension belt drive for more incision, assertiveness and "the notes".
Now, if Saskia can keep 100% of idler hypnoticness and add more "see thru", it will be v special indeed.
For me, I've really maxxed out my more modest tt w the Stacore Adv/additional massy slate stand, bespoke motor psu, mag lev platter and feet, and Symposium Svelte isolation of drive wheel pod, and this has dramatically added authority and transparency. Indeed, the Stacore is so integral to the sound I class it as part of the tt, not an add on or tweak. Mike, that's why I'd ask you to seriously consider this direction yself, I cannot imagine it would be anything other than stellar.
I can't really disagree w you on that. It's just that rim/idler talks to me in ways that v few belt drives do.
I guess the Koetsu lover is really gonna struggle w any Lyra.
I could repeat your words concerning the Techdas AirForce One Premium when compared with other turntables I have owned - neutrality and linearity, but the feeling of easiness that many other turntables miss. The coherency that also shows in free jazz, making us dig in types of music we are not used to.
great to hear that the AF1P is working well in your system. 'ease' but with 'linearity' to me is the magic combination. the music does not fight the system. you get flow and energy. congrats!
do you have any feedback on comparison with the EMT 997? if you have already written about this comparison please point me to it. thanks.
i know that like me, you love your digital. has the ratio of digital to vinyl listening changed with the AF1P?
I think Micro had the 927 and it did not meet his expectation. I cannot speak for him or his tt. Also cannot generalize the 50 years old 927 to all sound the same. Kedar has heard three four different 927 and he told me their level of goodness varied. Anyway in my system, the music from AF1P "always organized with ease and authority." I say it sounds excitingly neat. To a certain degree possesses a digital characteristic.. the good one. In contrast my 927 is a musical machine it is free'er to form and pattern. It sounds bigger than the AF1P. The most dynamic tt I own. But it has less resolution than the AF1P. Music is bigger less precise than the AF1P. I match the 927 with the GFS because the GFS has a lesser upfront presentation, excellent resolution and hold instruments to their own. Still I find gap of differences between the two.
Kind regards,
Tang
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