Golden Ear - Triton (closer to the) Reference

[MortenB]

Yes, I see that. How likely is it that if we used quality after market spade connectors would there be a sound downgrade from point to point soldering? Or are we talking about splitting hairs here? Just curious, it would seem that upgrading the crossover and the internal wiring would make the most impact.

Sorry, but this makes no sense… You will spend more money (and you say cost is important to you), you will spend more time crimping on all these spades. You need to buy crimping tool also, and you will never get as good connections/sound, as direct soldering quality wire to the drivers.

Adding a spade connector, most likely made of brass that is a poor conductor, between your quality cable, and the drivers is just stupid. Sorry to be direct.

And since you need to cable tie the cable to the driver baskets, as shown by both me and Markuzz, it will be quite difficult to use spades in the first place. You CAN NOT use thick/stiff wiring on these drivers without the stress-relieve from the wire being tied to the basket of the drivers. This because the lugs on the drivers are quite flimsy. If you go ahead and use spades + thick/stiff cable, and do not cable tie the cable to the driver baskets, you WILL DAMAGE the drivers beyond repair. The lugs will break, and so will the litz wire between lug and voice coil = driver ready for the trash can.

I have tried explaining this more than a few times now, hope it makes sense.

 

[Markuzz]

Yes, I see that. How likely is it that if we used quality after market spade connectors would there be a sound downgrade from point to point soldering? Or are we talking about splitting hairs here? Just curious, it would seem that upgrading the crossover and the internal wiring would make the most impact.

I agree with @MortenB. It does not really make sense to use spades.

But in case of the Triton Reference, where the woofers are in fact subwoofers and play up to approximately 120Hz.... changing the cabling (or connection) to the subs will have a small effect (if audible at all).

In a regular speaker where the woofer in a 3-way design plays up to 200-500Hz, or in a 2-way up to 2.5kHz it will make a vast difference to change the cables to that woofer.

Having said that, it is a fairly easy task to change the cabling to the subs. So the question is, why not change it (after all the efforts of making the passive section good)

 

[MortenB]

As stated from my first post in this thread: My mission with this upgrade is to get the full potential out of these speakers, that are well engineered, but build to a price point. For me this means replacing the crossovers, the binding posts and all wiring to the drivers + soldering wires directly to drivers with high quality parts. That’s what I wanted, and that’s what I have done.

If others have a different mission and want to do something else, something less, or something more. If you do not think this or that matter and therefore keep things stock… All good And I am aware, that we disagree on some topics here.

But please, please don’t damage you speakers in the process, as you will have a high risk of doing Raesco with spade connectors, and no stress relieve of the cables going to the drivers.

 

[Raesco]

Well in the interest of being educated, let me play the devils advocate. I am questioning your assertion about using spade connectors, as being stupid, (sorry for being so direct).

I can understand and appreciate why you as a DIYer would use point to point wiring, wire stress relief, quality wiring, etc

However, considering that the manufacturer opted for a " less then quality" wiring harnesses and spade connectors, that obviously, the vast majority of Triton Reference owners apparently seem to be happy with and it is the tiny minority like us that want to squeeze that nth degree of improvement out of the speakers by doing what we're doing.

That being said Is it beyond the realm of possibility that the difference in sound quality between using quality highly conductive audiophile connectors with the appropriate stress relief which is obviously a point of concern, (forget about the crimping, wire thickness, cost, etc) and point to point wiring will make such an important difference on the sound quality and will be negligible?

PS, I will do point to point soldering when I get my crossovers just to cover all my bases, don't want to leave any performance on the table.

 

[MortenB]

Sorry, I can not help you… I have been trying to help, explaining over and over and over for 10 pages, and I can’t do that any longer, I’m going nuts.

I stop here.

 

[Markuzz]

Gents, relax and keep your shirts on!

No need to lecture, or feel offended.

In case of any questions, I will stay available.

 

[MortenB]

Sorry for being human.

Earlier HigherSound mentioned, that I must have ‘’the patience of a god’’, having the patience to answer the same questions and concerns again and again. I have done my best, but this is wearing me down now, and I can’t do it any longer. It seems I’m not that patient after all.

I have designed this upgrade, shared details, photos, answered all quesions as good as I can, so I have done my part. I hope you will all enjoy the result of your upgraded T Ref’s

 

[Markuzz]

Sorry for being human.

Earlier HigherSound mentioned, that I must have ‘’the patience of a god’’, having the patience to answer the same questions and concerns again and again. I have done my best, but this is wearing me down now, and I can’t do it any longer. It seems I’m not that patient after all.

I have designed this upgrade, shared details, photos, answered all quesions as good as I can, so I have done my part. I hope you will all enjoy the result of your upgraded T Ref’s

Sorry for being human? Really?

I appreciate it can be annoying to answer questions several times. But - on the other hand - it's not realistic to assume that anyone will remember every single detail from this thread. As I understand it, four sets of filters have been sold (including to me). So I would consider that a success, as it is clear people actually believe in your concept. Plus it is not a cheap upgrade, and you have not been very forthcoming with schematics and measurements. And that's fine, but If I were you I would enjoy this project a little more and let the cynicism you feel slide. It's a forum, people sometimes come across different than they actually mean.

So, on a positive note..... the new filters have been playing for about 15 hours here. And they are coming around very, very nice! Tonal balance was a bit off in the beginning. Now the Tref's sound alive, dynamic (and smooth at the same time) and with an increased soundstage.

Good job @MortenB!

Please reconsider your decision

 

[higher sound]

Hi guys
Morten please don't leave us!
for everyone
each message thread has a number on the upper right hand corner and if you
to refer to something that has been said by you or someone else you can refer to it by mentioning
the number then it would be up to us to look it up and find the answer
(to avoid beating a dead horse)
just saying ok
Best to all
PS: Raesco and I have yet to receive our crossovers being held up in customs here in Oakland
so be kind to us

 

[Raesco]

Morten,

my apologies, I don't mean to be obtuse or obstinate but being a visual learner and not having a background in the subject matter it is difficult for me to visualize what needs to be done and how. That being said, I've researched information on the internet which is different from this forum and I'm trying to discern the best path forward for myself. Again, I want to thank you for initiating this thread and your invaluable contributions to it.

Let's all enjoy the music, after all that's why we're here. Peace.

Rafael

 

[Mark D]

Hello all
I'm the other person in the states that got a set of these crossovers and cabling. I just got home from a job that had me away for over a week. I opened everything up when I got home to check everything out and the new crossovers look great. I just want to post on here a big thank you to MortenB for making this post and finding out that Tony Gee already had all the values to make the crossovers for the T-Refs. I had already talked to Danny at GR research about building a set of crossovers for me but I would of had to ship or take a speaker to him to do so. So after reading this post I contacted MortenB and Tony Gee and got a set ordered. So hopefully I will have time this week to get them installed. I already have the new binding posts installed and just that made a positive difference. I'm sure the crossovers and new cabling will make a huge positive difference. For all the rest of you doing or done this upgrade what are your impressions of the new sound coming from your T-Refs? As for me I will be doing all the cabling like MortenB. That way all the cables in the speakers will have the same values and nothing will be different. I going to a audio show next month in Texas. The southwest audio fest. I'm hoping that my speakers will sound as good as some of the higher end speakers that will be at the show. Thanks everyone for all your posts! Its been fun reading all this and I hope it keeps going.

Thank you
Mark Dorey

 

[Markuzz]

Welcome Mark!

Interesting you had contact with Danny at GR. I am familiar with his method of working with one loudspeaker and (re)design a filter for it. It has led to some controversy on the internet in the past

I've built speaker designs from Tony before, and I like his approach and component choice. I regard Tony as an absolute expert on filter design, and trust him even without having access to a Tref loudspeaker.

I swapped the filters last weekend, and the new Tref's have been playing for about 20hrs since then. For me, the upgrade is worth while. Dynamics have improved, and yet the sound remain smooth. Soundstage is better/bigger as well. I only have one remark and that is top end sparkle. In my book that is not the Tref strong point. For now, I'll let everything settle some more..... maybe in the future I'll consider a small adjustment to the tweeter filter, or maybe add a supertweeter as there is space above the MTM section.

Cheers, Markuzz.

 

[Mikko Mattila]

I only have one remark and that is top end sparkle. In my book that is not the Tref strong point. For now, I'll let everything settle some more..... maybe in the future I'll consider a small adjustment to the tweeter filter, or maybe add a supertweeter as there is space above the MTM section.

Cheers, Markuzz.

Thanks Markuzz for your insights on burn-in.
I was thinking the top end sparkle you mentioned. When checking out measurements by Stereophile and NRC, nothing suggest excessive distortion on the top area. JA observed however "low level artifacts" on the area and suggests these anomalies may be caused by reflections of the tweeters output from the edge of the chassis.
Not sure if anyone has tried to use felt with thickness, say 1-2 mm, to cover edges of the tweeter. Some manufacturers, including Wilson uses felt surrounding their tweeters, though not being AMT-type.
Any thoughts on this?

 

[Markuzz]

Thanks Markuzz for your insights on burn-in.
I was thinking the top end sparkle you mentioned. When checking out measurements by Stereophile and NRC, nothing suggest excessive distortion on the top area. JA observed however "low level artifacts" on the area and suggests these anomalies may be caused by reflections of the tweeters output from the edge of the chassis.
Not sure if anyone has tried to use felt with thickness, say 1-2 mm, to cover edges of the tweeter. Some manufacturers, including Wilson uses felt surrounding their tweeters, though not being AMT-type.
Any thoughts on this?
View attachment 146461

View attachment 146462View attachment 146463

Yes Mikko, using felt has crossed my mind. This is easy to try with the Tref's and a good suggestion on your part. It may help with baffle diffraction. Sandy Gross has thought very well about the width of the baffle, so I suspect the effect will be minimal.

I am also considering to do a measurement myself on the frequency response from 200Hz to 20kHz. It will be a system/room measurement, so not calibrated at all. It can however be useful to see if my impressions are really there, or that I am just chasing ghosts

Also I had Tony put in the Duelund JDM tinned copper bypass caps in the tweeter filter. I have good experiences with this cap, especially in combination with the Alumen Z cap. This bypass tends to 'darken' the tweeter somewhat and make it sound a little more 'organic', so it's interesting to see what happens if I get it out of the chain. Another option would be to use the silver variant of this Duelund cap. Or to change the Alumen Z altogether with a copper based cap (instead of aluminum), for instance a Jupiter Bee Wax.

But then again, I am used to a very high end horn design (Tony) with a 2" compression driver that excels in top end air and clarity. So maybe I just need to get used to this AMT 'sound'.

For now I just leave things mature some more. It's seems it's getting better by the hour

 

[Mikko Mattila]

But then again, I am used to a very high end horn design (Tony) with a 2" compression driver that excels in top end air and clarity. So maybe I just need to get used to this AMT 'sound'.

For now I just leave things mature some more. It's seems it's getting better by the hour

Markuzz - please keep us updated abt you notes with caps.

AMT has its own flavor of top end. Each design has their trade offs, apparently AMT, too.
Have seen some other reviewers been mentioning sparkle in the old Triton One reviews, too. For me, never have been bothered with the top end - may be it depends on the type of music where it matters. I was also so used to the Ones for long time and was so happy this is now better. My experience with Tritons is that they are very "responsive" with other components.
If i may still ask if you observed any sibilance or is it harshness of the cymbals, perhaps? Yours were also tube powered like Mortens?

I was not the first suggesting to use felt surrounding the tweeter - forgot the new T66 uses this. On the measurements there's still an anomaly on the 12 kHz region, so appears this is not the medicine for that. JA mentioned elevated top-end in his review. There's no distortion measurement in Sphile, though. In NRC report, no sign of excessive distortion, (however measured upto 10 kHz only)

Inserting felt to the edges should be rather low risk tweek to experiment?...using 2-sided adhesive tape to attach the felt. That could be removed if not happy. I would probably try to cut inner edges the way in Wilsons.

 

[Markuzz]

Markuzz - please keep us updated abt you notes with caps.

AMT has its own flavor of top end. Each design has their trade offs, apparently AMT, too.
Have seen some other reviewers been mentioning sparkle in the old Triton One reviews, too. For me, never have been bothered with the top end - may be it depends on the type of music where it matters. I was also so used to the Ones for long time and was so happy this is now better. My experience with Tritons is that they are very "responsive" with other components.
If i may still ask if you observed any sibilance or is it harshness of the cymbals, perhaps? Yours were also tube powered like Mortens?

I was not the first suggesting to use felt surrounding the tweeter - forgot the new T66 uses this. On the measurements there's still an anomaly on the 12 kHz region, so appears this is not the medicine for that. JA mentioned elevated top-end in his review. There's no distortion measurement in Sphile, though. In NRC report, no sign of excessive distortion, (however measured upto 10 kHz only)

Inserting felt to the edges should be rather low risk tweek to experiment?...using 2-sided adhesive tape to attach the felt. That could be removed if not happy. I would probably try to cut inner edges the way in Wilsons.



View attachment 146466View attachment 146468View attachment 146469

Interesting it is mentioned by others on the Triton One's. If I am correct, it uses another AMT compared to the T-ref's. And in the T66's the same AMT is used again.

I believe I hear some "harshness" on cymbals as which can be 'tuned' a bit with lesser toe-in (as per suggestion of @MortenB). But then you tame the top end as well...... As always, it's a compromise. And I am very interested in the experience of @Raesco @higher sound and @Mark D. Hope they get the filters cleared at customs soon!

Currently I have the T-ref's amped by a NAT integrated. It's a SET design with GM70's in the end stage delivering up to 50W of tube power. This amp is ruler-flat up to 20kHz. I also have a nice Leben CS600X (push pull EL34 tubes 28W), which is currently at my brother's. Will try this amp in the coming weekend, as you mention the concern of system matching (which is always key in my experience).

That picture of the T66 with the felt is nice. Definitely worth a try. You mean a star figure in the felt, as per Wilson's design?

 

[Mikko Mattila]

Interesting it is mentioned by others on the Triton One's. If I am correct, it uses another AMT compared to the T-ref's. And in the T66's the same AMT is used again.

I believe I hear some "harshness" on cymbals as which can be 'tuned' a bit with lesser toe-in (as per suggestion of @MortenB). But then you tame the top end as well...... As always, it's a compromise. And I am very interested in the experience of @Raesco @higher sound and @Mark D. Hope they get the filters cleared at customs soon!

Currently I have the T-ref's amped by a NAT integrated. It's a SET design with GM70's in the end stage delivering up to 50W of tube power. This amp is ruler-flat up to 20kHz. I also have a nice Leben CS600X (push pull EL34 tubes 28W), which is currently at my brother's. Will try this amp in the coming weekend, as you mention the concern of system matching (which is always key in my experience).

That picture of the T66 with the felt is nice. Definitely worth a try. You mean a star figure in the felt, as per Wilson's design?

Yes, according to product literature TRef tweeters (like One.Rs) are improved what was in the One. Have not seen that many complaints on TRef reviews, but i know GE is polarizing audiophile audience particularly due the AMT.
I'm quite convinced your SET is not a reason for any harshness. Will be interesting to hear how it sounds using different amps. Need to check what Morten said abt treble area after modification, did he found treble harshness gone or decreased after burn-in.

On local audio show last fall some fellow audiophiles reported T66 having less than super treble when driven by Hegel 200. Local distributor told when compared side to side One.Rs and T66 2/3 of the customers preferred One.Rs. Also noted mr Darko was not fully satisfied when he used some Hegel amp, but was happy with another solid state - which implies that they appear to be sensitive for component match.
Understandable they're having more trade-offs, due their low price point.

Yes, i was thinking similar star-shape felt like in Wilsons, extending over the edge of the inner slope next to diaphgram openings.

Out of curiosity i checked out how Wilson's treble performs and strange enough their trebles have similair patter above 10k. This is the graph of latest Watt/Puppy. Always regarded Wilsons' treble being some kind of reference (for non-horners)

 

[Markuzz]

Yes, according to product literature TRef tweeters (like One.Rs) are improved what was in the One. Have not seen that many complaints on TRef reviews, but i know GE is polarizing audiophile audience particularly due the AMT.
I'm quite convinced your SET is not a reason for any harshness. Will be interesting to hear how it sounds using different amps. Need to check what Morten said abt treble area after modification, did he found treble harshness gone or decreased after burn-in.

On local audio show last fall some fellow audiophiles reported T66 having less than super treble when driven by Hegel 200. Local distributor told when compared side to side One.Rs and T66 2/3 of the customers preferred One.Rs. Also noted mr Darko was not fully satisfied when he used some Hegel amp, but was happy with another solid state - which implies that they appear to be sensitive for component match.
Understandable they're having more trade-offs, due their low price point.

Yes, i was thinking similar star-shape felt like in Wilsons, extending over the edge of the inner slope next to diaphgram openings.

Out of curiosity i checked out how Wilson's treble performs and strange enough their trebles have similair patter above 10k. This is the graph of latest Watt/Puppy. Always regarded Wilsons' treble being some kind of reference (for non-horners)

View attachment 146477

Again, interesting stuff @Mikko Mattila.

I once was part of an audioclub here in The Netherlands and one of the members owned a pair of Puppy's. It was paired with Spectral amplification. I had the privilege of listening to this set for an entire night at his home. Although, it sounded good..... for some reason it didn't really involve me. For the rest, I've seen/heard several Wilson loudspeakers at audio shows. Again, just not my cup of tea.

To take away any misconceptions, it is not that I am complaining about the high frequencies of the T-ref's. It's just that - to my taste, in my set and room - it could do with some more sparkle. Now it tends to sound a bit 'dry'. This is all in comparison to what I am used to.

I've built about 25 sets of loudspeakers in my life (for myself and friends). Also with AMT's, for instance with the Mundorf AMT1908c. That tweeter (in a 3-way with Accuton drivers) was spectacular on detail retrieval, and also flat in response up to 40kHz. In fact, it needed to be tamed quite a bit, as it could be a little too much

Also, the new filters for the T-ref's have not changed anything on the behavior of it's drivers. The crossover point and slopes sound similar. Lastly, my experience is that it sometimes can take some time for components to get up to specs and as a result for the sound to open up. So for now, I'll just keep playing music...... And am very interested on the experiences from the others that ordered the filters.

Just for fun, I hooked up a monitor loudspeaker that I built about 20 years ago. It is equipped with the famous Vifa XT300 ring radiator tweeter. The filter consists of a very elegant first order crossover, with just one cap and one resistor in the signal path. Although this monitor cannot compete in any department with the T-Ref...... it does sparkle a little more

Stay tuned gents.

 

[Mikko Mattila]

Again, interesting stuff @Mikko Mattila.

I once was part of an audioclub here in The Netherlands and one of the members owned a pair of Puppy's. It was paired with Spectral amplification. I had the privilege of listening to this set for an entire night at his home. Although, it sounded good..... for some reason it didn't really involve me. For the rest, I've seen/heard several Wilson loudspeakers at audio shows. Again, just not my cup of tea.

To take away any misconceptions, it is not that I am complaining about the high frequencies of the T-ref's. It's just that - to my taste, in my set and room - it could do with some more sparkle. Now it tends to sound a bit 'dry'. This is all in comparison to what I am used to.

I've built about 25 sets of loudspeakers in my life (for myself and friends). Also with AMT's, for instance with the Mundorf AMT1908c. That tweeter (in a 3-way with Accuton drivers) was spectacular on detail retrieval, and also flat in response up to 40kHz. In fact, it needed to be tamed quite a bit, as it could be a little too much

Also, the new filters for the T-ref's have not changed anything on the behavior of it's drivers. The crossover point and slopes sound similar. Lastly, my experience is that it sometimes can take some time for components to get up to specs and as a result for the sound to open up. So for now, I'll just keep playing music...... And am very interested on the experiences from the others that ordered the filters.

Just for fun, I hooked up a monitor loudspeaker that I built about 20 years ago. It is equipped with the famous Vifa XT300 ring radiator tweeter. The filter consists of a very elegant first order crossover, with just one cap and one resistor in the signal path. Although this monitor cannot compete in any department with the T-Ref...... it does sparkle a little more

Stay tuned gents.

"So for now, I'll just keep playing music......" - excellent sign! I'm happy for you. Happy to hear others, too!

BTW, do we know who's OEM for TRef treble element?
Interesting you mentioned Ring Radiators. I have had three Audio Physics which used Ring Radiator. I found their treble very satisfactory if not excellent, however got fatigued sooner than later due their other trade offs. Had to trade them for an upgrade until eventually came across the Ones.

FYI, Here's AP Caldera III with Ring Radiator measured by Stereophile. Same strange ridge of resonance/diffraction on 10+ kHz area.

Perhaps we should not care too much abt that pattern on the TRefs and accept that as a feature...

 

[Raesco]

Hello all
I'm the other person in the states that got a set of these crossovers and cabling. I just got home from a job that had me away for over a week. I opened everything up when I got home to check everything out and the new crossovers look great. I just want to post on here a big thank you to MortenB for making this post and finding out that Tony Gee already had all the values to make the crossovers for the T-Refs. I had already talked to Danny at GR research about building a set of crossovers for me but I would of had to ship or take a speaker to him to do so. So after reading this post I contacted MortenB and Tony Gee and got a set ordered. So hopefully I will have time this week to get them installed. I already have the new binding posts installed and just that made a positive difference. I'm sure the crossovers and new cabling will make a huge positive difference. For all the rest of you doing or done this upgrade what are your impressions of the new sound coming from your T-Refs? As for me I will be doing all the cabling like MortenB. That way all the cables in the speakers will have the same values and nothing will be different. I going to a audio show next month in Texas. The southwest audio fest. I'm hoping that my speakers will sound as good as some of the higher end speakers that will be at the show. Thanks everyone for all your posts! Its been fun reading all this and I hope it keeps going.

Thank you
Mark Dorey

Welcome, Mark, and now there are five.