Good mid-price audiophile switches

NigelB

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Jan 2, 2023
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Makes sense. I just tried a pair of TrendNet FMCs with TrendNet single-mode SFPs, just to test the impact of optical on my system. The results were very positive.

As an aside, even the designer of my DAC (the technical Grammy-award winning Daniel Weiss), had suggested to me that noise over ethernet shouldn't be an issue and measures to isolate it shouldn't be needed. He referred to the fact that ethernet connections are galvanically isolated by design.

I still have my Pink Faun LAN isolator in the chain, after the FMCs. Maybe it is serving to clean up any noise the SFPs produce, as you suggest. At the least, it doesn't do any harm.

Next stop will be the Fiberbox II (in a couple of months).
I am playing with a couple of Trendnets, also in single mode; it's my first real experience of optical in my own system and I like what they do.

All DAC designers claim you don't need any of this add-on stuff (switches, FMC's) to hear their DAC at its best, and most who supply their DACs with switched mode PSU would claim the same! Galvanic isolation is a mitigator not a neutraliser. If galvanic isolation was all we needed, any cheap ethernet switch would do the job as galvanic isolation is basically inherent in network switch board designs. But clearly we audiophiles go further than that, and it's not just because we have wild imaginations.
 

audiobomber

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Oct 13, 2020
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I hugely respect your experiences but have to argue with your rationale. There is simply no mechanism by which noise can be transferred over an optical cable. Well, not one I'm aware of, so you'll need to educate me if you feel different. Noise is transferred over electrical connections and no such connection exists using optical.

Power supply changes can and will absolutely make a difference - as @darkfrank says, you say, and my own personal experiences testify. The noise any PSU produces cannot be transmitted over an optical connection though; it's in the electrical circuit feeding your equipment.

I don't know what is happening if you hear a difference when you change either of those ethernet cables but the final Corning fiber will kill any noise being transmitted with the data which contains the digitised music.
I lack the expertise to explain, so I'll quote John Swenson from Uptone Audio:

Q. What about fiber-optic interfaces? Don’t these block everything?

A. In the case of a pure optical input (zero metal connection), this does block leakage current, but it does not block phase-noise affects. The optical connection is like any other isolator: jitter on the input is transmitted down the fiber and shows up at the receiver. If the receiver reclocks the data with a local clock, you still have the effects of the ground plane-noise from the data causing threshold changes on the reclocking circuit, thus overlaying on top of the local clock
.

I highly recommend to read the entire white paper.
 
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kennyb123

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Nov 30, 2012
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I highly recommend to read the entire white paper.
+1

Fiber optic networking wasn’t engineered to provide audiophiles with a solution that will perfectly isolate their streamers from noise. In fact, no system has ever achieved perfection as engineering aims to balance tradeoffs. We are fortunate to be able to gain some benefits from fiber as long as we are careful to balance the tradeoffs ourselves.
 

Atriya

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Feb 25, 2023
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+1

Fiber optic networking wasn’t engineered to provide audiophiles with a solution that will perfectly isolate their streamers from noise. In fact, no system has ever achieved perfection as engineering aims to balance tradeoffs. We are fortunate to be able to gain some benefits from fiber as long as we are careful to balance the tradeoffs ourselves.

I assume that something like the Edison Fiberbox II, discussed extensively in this thread, would count as "fiber optic for audiophiles".
 
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kennyb123

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Nov 30, 2012
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It is not a white paper it is an FAQ from an manufacturer that builds Ethernet and USB Switches no optical at all. Pure marketing fluff not a white paper.
You should really consider the author’s credentials before tossing out such assertions. I’d venture to guess that he’s forgotten more about what happens at the physical layer of networking than most of us here have ever known. Those who don’t have an engineering background can learn a lot from John as he’s really good at making complex topics easy to understand. Given your haha reaction to my post above (#413), time spent reading what John has written would be an excellent use of your time if gaining a better understanding was actually important to you.
 

Republicoftexas69

Well-Known Member
You should really consider the author’s credentials before tossing out such assertions. I’d venture to guess that he’s forgotten more about what happens at the physical layer of networking than most of us here have ever known. Those who don’t have an engineering background can learn a lot from John as he’s really good at making complex topics easy to understand. Given your haha reaction to my post above (#413), time spent reading what John has written would be an excellent use of your time if gaining a better understanding was actually important to you.
Should get out more. Not the only one who can read fluff when it’s posted as a white paper. cheers.
 

Republicoftexas69

Well-Known Member
Swenson explains what I'm hearing. You say I can't hear it. Guess who I believe. :rolleyes:
Believe what you like. I am not looking to change you opinions. Simply pointing out what the paper truly is, Marketing. If it works for you then good for you.
 

Superdad

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Apr 22, 2015
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Believe what you like. I am not looking to change you opinions. Simply pointing out what the paper truly is, Marketing. If it works for you then good for you.
Guess you overlooked the fact that our EtherREGEN also includes an SFP for optical transceivers. So your (apparently delete) post about us not offering optical is quite incorrect.

And Audiobomber is correct: John Swenson was a senior chip engineer for LSI Logic>Avago>Broadcom for 31 years, with his specialty being design of the power networks inside large and small ASICs. He has literally designed (as part of a large team of course) Ethernet switch chips and PHYs—used in Cisco and other enterprise-level equipment.

Our ‘white paper’ was our attempt to explain in lay terms some of the key underlying factors about why people are able to hear the differences they do with network (and USB) gear in music systems. It is not about the bits—it about ground-plane perturbations which propagate, from everything upstream and from within the chips themselves!
Remember: A clock is just a highly accurate periodic voltage (either square or sine wave) with risetime/ramp which other chips use to trigger off of at some set voltage along that ramp. But a clock’s voltage is referenced to a zero-volt ground plane. If that ground plane bounces—even a tiny bit—it moves the ramp of the clock forward in time. THAT’S JITTER!

So you can call our little paper ”Marketing” all you want. But please show me any other company in this space who is even attempting to educate the consumer about the real mechanisms taking place and why it matters.
I see an awful lot of expensive switches out with either no original innovation and/or a lack of willingness to even publish a clear photo of their board with an explanation about their design. (And a good number of these switches are simply mass-market PCBs with some clocking mods and a power supply tacked on and put into a fancy case.) :rolleyes:
 

Republicoftexas69

Well-Known Member
Guess you overlooked the fact that our EtherREGEN also includes an SFP for optical transceivers. So your (apparently delete) post about us not offering optical is quite incorrect.

And Audiobomber is correct: John Swenson was a senior chip engineer for LSI Logic>Avago>Broadcom for 31 years, with his specialty being design of the power networks inside large and small ASICs. He has literally designed (as part of a large team of course) Ethernet switch chips and PHYs—used in Cisco and other enterprise-level equipment.

Our ‘white paper’ was our attempt to explain in lay terms some of the key underlying factors about why people are able to hear the differences they do with network (and USB) gear in music systems. It is not about the bits—it about ground-plane perturbations which propagate, from everything upstream and from within the chips themselves!
Remember: A clock is just a highly accurate periodic voltage (either square or sine wave) with risetime/ramp which other chips use to trigger off of at some set voltage along that ramp. But a clock’s voltage is referenced to a zero-volt ground plane. If that ground plane bounces—even a tiny bit—it moves the ramp of the clock forward in time. THAT’S JITTER!

So you can call our little paper ”Marketing” all you want. But please show me any other company in this space who is even attempting to educate the consumer about the real mechanisms taking place and why it matters.
I see an awful lot of expensive switches out with either no original innovation and/or a lack of willingness to even publish a clear photo of their board with an explanation about their design. (And a good number of these switches are simply mass-market PCBs with some clocking mods and a power supply tacked on and put into a fancy case.) :rolleyes:
I stand corrected. Not buying it (product). I see all kinds of companies in HK, Korea, PRC with images of their boards and internals. Please have a great day and I hope you sell a few more units too.

So it is an upsell for SFP?


Only Gigabit LC-optical or copper interface modules are compatible with the SFP cage of the EtherREGEN. They can be SX multi-mode, LX multi-mode, or LX single-mode, as long as they are Gigabit and match what is used at the other end of the optical cable.
 
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Superdad

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Apr 22, 2015
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So it is an upsell for SFP?

Sorry but I do not understand your question.

The EtherREGEN has an SFP cage which accepts any SFP (small form pluggable) transceiver, be it SFP or SFP+. But that port’s only speed is Gigabit (like most all SFP transceivers), and as with other switch products it is important to match cable type (single-mode or multi-mode) to the transceivers used at both ends.

There is no “upsell“ for SFP with EtherREGE. The cage is there and its use is optional for the user.
 

Republicoftexas69

Well-Known Member
Sorry but I do not understand your question.

The EtherREGEN has an SFP cage which accepts any SFP (small form pluggable) transceiver, be it SFP or SFP+. But that port’s only speed is Gigabit (like most all SFP transceivers), and as with other switch products it is important to match cable type (single-mode or multi-mode) to the transceivers used at both ends.

There is no “upsell“ for SFP with EtherREGE. The cage is there and its use is optional for the user.
Thanks, guess you did understand the question, we’ll you did answer it. Cheers. Doing some experimenting in at my sons home right now with the TaraDak switch, impressed so far.
 
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Gene 15352

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Feb 18, 2013
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Anyone have success with plugging in their modem, router, ethernet switch, fibre box into something like a Torus isolation transformer? The Torus will isolate these devices and block noise from coming in from outside the system but it won't help with component-to-component interference like a Shunyata. I'm thinking I should not plug the ethernet switch and power supply into the same star grounded/star wired non-filtered distribution box as my streamer, dac and preamp.
 

Atriya

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Feb 25, 2023
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Does anyone have an opinion on how much better the FiberBoxII Extreme + Firebird LPS (i.e., using the DC version of the Exteme) is than just the AC version of the Extreme (which also seems to have an LPS built into it)?
 

markramler

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Sep 19, 2014
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New York, NY
Does anyone have an opinion on how much better the FiberBoxII Extreme + Firebird LPS (i.e., using the DC version of the Exteme) is than just the AC version of the Extreme (which also seems to have an LPS built into it)?
I was using the standard AC version of EdisCreation switch and FiberBox II and upgraded to the Extreme DC versions of both with the Firebird LPS. There was a very noticeable improvement in clarity, flow and depth of the music. The quality of my streamed music is now on a par with my music on SSD. Before I could easily tell the difference now I cannot.
 

Atriya

New Member
Feb 25, 2023
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I was using the standard AC version of EdisCreation switch and FiberBox II and upgraded to the Extreme DC versions of both with the Firebird LPS. There was a very noticeable improvement in clarity, flow and depth of the music. The quality of my streamed music is now on a par with my music on SSD. Before I could easily tell the difference now I cannot.

Thanks, but this is in a FB Standard vs. FB Extreme DC + Firebird LPS. I can't help but wonder whether the improvements were due to moving from FB Standard to FB Extreme, or because of the Firebird LPS, or because you also changed the switch from Standard to Extreme. Probably some combination of all of them.

I'm not going to get the switch, nor am I considering the FB Standard, so the question for me is really FB Extreme (AC) vs. FB Extreme DC + Firebird LPS.
 

F208Frank

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Mar 27, 2020
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New York
I have a innuos phoenix net switch for sale if anyone is interested. I am the 1st and only owner, item is mint. PM if needing.
 

Gene 15352

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Feb 18, 2013
79
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925
Canada
Can either markramler or someone else let me know if they've ever auditioned the Ediscreation Fiber Box II with the Ediscreation's Silent Switch OCXO, and just with the Fiber Box II? My Fiber Box is currently being assembled and am not sure if getting the Silent Switch will bring negligible positive returns. Thanks everyone
 

pjwd

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Jun 22, 2015
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Brisbane
Can either markramler or someone else let me know if they've ever auditioned the Ediscreation Fiber Box II with the Ediscreation's Silent Switch OCXO, and just with the Fiber Box II? My Fiber Box is currently being assembled and am not sure if getting the Silent Switch will bring negligible positive returns. Thanks everyone
Gene
I have both and they work very well together but had not done extensive trials. I was at a friend's yesterday who also has both and we tried them separately and together and there was a clear improvement with both. Whether its worth the expenditure is subjective
Cheers
Phil
 
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