Grounding

[BE718]

No-one was attacking the owners as PO claimed, in fact it seemed rather the other way around with the ad hominem being squarely aimed at anyone who criticised or challenged the efficacy of the product.b I confess there was a degree of sarcasm involved and a few suffered a sense of humour bypass.....

I don't agree there is any IP to lose here. The box is so easy to copy it's already gone. I don't think that's the reason PO refuses to talk about the technicalities. I don't think there is any "magic" secret methodology behind its alleged mode of operation

 

[jkeny]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the title of this thread is "Grounding" & not "Another thread to slag off the Entreq"? Have some people not already satiated their psychological need in denigration of the product?

Does anybody want to discuss grounding of devices in the playback chain?
Here's a starter point for discussion - it's been stated that what these ground boxes reveal is deficient grounding among the playback devices.

So how does one go about selecting devices which are not "deficiently grounded" - is double insulated devices sufficient (i.e no mains earth)?
If one already has a system, how does one go about isolating any deficiency & correcting it?

What are the audible symptoms of various categories of ground noise?
I believe we all know the audibility of some steady state HF noise as a background hiss & LF noise as a hum (mains harmonics) but what about RF noise & what about signal correlated noise or modulated noise - what are the symptoms of such?

 

[Barry2013]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the title of this thread is "Grounding" & not "Another thread to slag off the Entreq"? Have some people not already satiated their psychological need in denigration of the product?

Does anybody want to discuss grounding of devices in the playback chain?
Here's a starter point for discussion - it's been stated that what these ground boxes reveal is deficient grounding among the playback devices.

So how does one go about selecting devices which are not "deficiently grounded" - is double insulated devices sufficient (i.e no mains earth)?
If one already has a system, how does one go about isolating any deficiency & correcting it?

What are the audible symptoms of various categories of ground noise?
I believe we all know the audibility of some steady state HF noise as a background hiss & LF noise as a hum (mains harmonics) but what about RF noise & what about signal correlated noise or modulated noise - what are the symptoms of such?

+1

 

[Speedskater]

Except it has already been reported that people with good chassis-grounding solutions still benefited from having a purported 'signal' 'grounding' box...

Audio enthusiasts are given to reporting any number of things.

Art Dudley :: Stereophile Magazine

 

[spazmatron]

have a look into , Ben duncan earth henry.

 

[BE718]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the title of this thread is "Grounding" & not "Another thread to slag off the Entreq"? Have some people not already satiated their psychological need in denigration of the product?

Does anybody want to discuss grounding of devices in the playback chain?
Here's a starter point for discussion - it's been stated that what these ground boxes reveal is deficient grounding among the playback devices.

So how does one go about selecting devices which are not "deficiently grounded" - is double insulated devices sufficient (i.e no mains earth)?
If one already has a system, how does one go about isolating any deficiency & correcting it?

What are the audible symptoms of various categories of ground noise?
I believe we all know the audibility of some steady state HF noise as a background hiss & LF noise as a hum (mains harmonics) but what about RF noise & what about signal correlated noise or modulated noise - what are the symptoms of such?

Did you read the op which specifically referenced grounding boxes? Intrinsic part of the discussion so give it a rest JK.

sorry but all your questions are meaningless. There is such are variation in component performance and individual configuration that the noise level in any system is going to be unique.

I know it's a heinous suggestion to some here, but without measurement you are frankly ******* in the wind. You have no idea what's going on. You'll have no idea if anything you are doing has helped or hindered.

Connecting to mains earth isnt a solution, especially if it's contaminated. It has the potential to make this worse. However you may have no choice, it's dependant on your equipment. If your kit has the signal Gnd/0v connected to mains earth then you have potential for trouble. If more than one of those bits of kits is connected to mains earth then the potential for trouble increases with loops etc.

If you are trying to distill this into a set of rules that will always work, then you will probably be disappointed. You seem to be working from a position that there is a problem to be solved. Your systems noise performance may well be just fine.

Avoid loops
Balanced will be better
A mains earth connection is not a necessity - that doesn't mean you should disconnect your equipments mains safety earth if it has one. It's there for reason.

 

[jkeny]

Did you read the op which specifically referenced grounding boxes? Intrinsic part of the discussion so give it a rest JK.

Yes I read it & didn't take it as an invitation to "have another go at Entreq". Your continued misnaming as "Entrails" is childish

sorry but all your questions are meaningless. There is such are variation in component performance and individual configuration that the noise level in any system is going to be unique.

I know it's a heinous suggestion to some here, but without measurement you are frankly ******* in the wind. You have no idea what's going on. You'll have no idea if anything you are doing has helped or hindered.

Right so measurements are the only way, you say.

It seems to me that excludes 99.9% of the readership here & so instead they try a grounding device, hear a difference & decide if they want to keep the device in their system. The alternative is to buy the equipment to measure noise in their system (cost?) & learn how to do such measurements in a rigorous way (time?).

Would this be a fair summation?

Connecting to mains earth isnt a solution, especially if it's contaminated.

I don't remember anybody suggesting this. Who is your answer directed to?

It has the potential to make this worse. However you may have no choice, it's dependant on your equipment. If your kit has the signal Gnd/0v connected to mains earth then you have potential for trouble. If more than one of those bits of kits is connected to mains earth then the potential for trouble increases with loops etc.

If you are trying to distill this into a set of rules that will always work, then you will probably be disappointed. You seem to be working from a position that there is a problem to be solved. Your systems noise performance may well be just fine.

I wasn't looking for a set of rules, just some guidelines as to the various issues from someone with experience in the matter. I gather you are not that person although you do seem to comment quite a bit on the topic - usually in a negative & non-constructive manner

Avoid loops
Balanced will be better
A mains earth connection is not a necessity - that doesn't mean you should disconnect your equipments mains safety earth if it has one. It's there for reason.

Ok, if that's the sum total of what you have to say on the matter - thanks!

 

[Speedskater]

have a look into , Ben duncan earth henry.

Are Ben Duncan's old papers available on-line?

 

[spazmatron]

don't know, he has a web site though..

 

[amirm]

I will state some facts here and see what people think:

1. Superlative sounding systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

2. Superlative measuring systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

I ask: what is broken in the system prior to deploying such a device? What is missing in the sound you hear? And what is the theory that says that missing thing is fixed by a grounding box?

You don't go randomly taking pills without a diagnostic of what is wrong with you. I like to understand why there is a need on behalf of users to deploy any device of the sort.

 

[amirm]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the title of this thread is "Grounding" & not "Another thread to slag off the Entreq"?

OP asked why they do what they do and this example is fresh with pictures of the box in hand. What is another model/brand of interest to discuss?

Does anybody want to discuss grounding of devices in the playback chain?

Why don't you start with your theories and we will pick it up from there. Right now we are stuck in the mud with the seemingly trivial nature of the Entreq box eluding us from any theory we can put forward that sticks.

Here's a starter point for discussion - it's been stated that what these ground boxes reveal is deficient grounding among the playback devices.

So how does one go about selecting devices which are not "deficiently grounded" - is double insulated devices sufficient (i.e no mains earth)?
If one already has a system, how does one go about isolating any deficiency & correcting it?

This is backward. You need to start with what is wrong with your system audibly first. Explain that to me and then we can look for cause and effect.

The worst thing one can do with these tweaks is to believe some fancy sounding theory of what is wrong with your system and run off to "fix it." Because if you do you fall victim to the marketing pitch of these companies. "Your electrons aren't lined up so here is a wire that lines them up." Who says I had such a problem and where is the evidence that the fix was that???

What are the audible symptoms of various categories of ground noise?

What do you think it is?

 

[amirm]

According to PO, it does.

I like to see what he has written. If something goes to the wire in the box, what is keeping it from doing the reverse? If the device is piezoelectric, then what is keeping the large vibrations created by the sound in your room from generating current and riding on top of your ground wire? You would have a nice little feedback loop now.

Folks go through a lot of trouble to isolate their electronics. If what he says is true and he can't demonstrate one-directionality then you are feeding orders of magnitude more of that sound vibration back into the system!

 

[Atmasphere]

Then how does these grounding boxes help

We did a survey about a year or two ago regarding grounding systems such as these. Here are the results:

In cases where the equipment in the audio system (amplifier, preamp, etc.) have errors in their respective grounding systems, a box such as the ones mentioned can help. An example of a 'grounding error' might be where the chassis and circuit ground in an amplifier are the same thing (making the amplifier prone to ground loops) or where the chassis and circuit ground are the same thing, except that the amplifier chassis is not in turn grounded into the wall via the AC cord (middle connection on the IEC connector not hooked up).

If the equipment uses proper grounding technique, no benefit derives from grounding boxes (and in at least one case, this is mentioned in the owner's manual of one of those boxes).

I will state some facts here and see what people think:

1. Superlative sounding systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

2. Superlative measuring systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

I ask: what is broken in the system prior to deploying such a device? What is missing in the sound you hear? And what is the theory that says that missing thing is fixed by a grounding box?

You don't go randomly taking pills without a diagnostic of what is wrong with you. I like to understand why there is a need on behalf of users to deploy any device of the sort.

See above.

The problem in audio is grounding is poorly understood! So some equipment is properly grounded and other bits are not. IMO, rather than using a grounding box which is really expensive and yielding highly variable results, instead if there is a grounding problem the equipment with the problems should be fixed. To that end it should meet UL or CE grounding requirements (meaning that the chassis will be grounded through the AC power cord to the building ground) and at the same time not susceptible to ground loops. If the gear meets those criteria, an external grounding box won't bring anything to the table.

 

[Barry2013]

I will state some facts here and see what people think:

1. Superlative sounding systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

2. Superlative measuring systems have been put together by audiophiles without such boxes.

Amir you seem to me to be trapped by your technical knowledge and unable to countenance the experience of people with undeniably high end systems.
Mike Lavigne, for example, has what seems to me and to others to be
one of the best systems there is and he has consistently reported the benefits he hears from Entreq and Tripoint.
Over the years I have had dealings with acknowledged national and international experts in a number of other fields. My experience was that most of them were remarkably modest and when confronted with something new to them, which seemed to have some unverified substance, they tended to reserve their judgement rather than to just dismiss it out of hand. They accepted that somebody else might have come up with something new that was valid and effective.
Given the widely accepted difficulty of correlating technical equipment and features with actual sounds your certainty does not convince me.

 

[Folsom]

I think discussing ground is fine. To start off, there's no way in hell the Entreq boxes are only working to "fix" anything. It's not even possible. They however may be providing a benefit. I'm tempted to call them a 'field interruption device'.

It's true some audio equipment's grounding schemes serve audio poorly, but meet safety standards. This isn't necessarily found all the time. It's not so common that say Rockitman's expensive fantastic stereo is absolutely riddled with "problems" so the boxes do something for him.

There's no point in trying to select equipment based on grounding. The only way you could even begin to do that is to look inside, see the schematic, measure, etc. You could have a power conditioner that provides some isolation for grounding, and even cleans it up a touch. But nothing is going to do what the Entreq boxes do. The idea is entirely preposterous.

jkenny, your spirit is in the right place but you're asking the wrong questions about grounding. And then you're supposing the grounding is the end-sum-all displacement for noise, which isn't true at all. You can't just 'ground more stuff' to eliminate all noise. And while at times one can hear noise as you describe in the audible region, that's typically when something is wrong. 99% of the time for a home stereo you don't hear the noise as an audible thing, an artifact. You could have a lot of noise but you wouldn't "hear it" as a thing. What you can hear is the affect it has on your music; but you can't recognize it until you've heard it without the noise changing the sound of the music. That when different power conditioners come into play. Different appliances in the signal chain have more or less ability to reject/attenuate noise but that's not easy to discern unless you know a lot about electronics and get to look inside.

 

[Atmasphere]

That when different power conditioners come into play. Different appliances in the signal chain have more or less ability to reject/attenuate noise but that's not easy to discern unless you know a lot about electronics and get to look inside.

Most power conditioners seen in high end audio are extremely limited in their abilities! The best I've seen are made by Elgar, and not pointed at all at the audio market, which is a shame as they made the best ever made by quite a long shot!

Your closing statement does not sound right- is that really what you meant to say?

 

[jkeny]

OP asked why they do what they do and this example is fresh with pictures of the box in hand. What is another model/brand of interest to discuss?

Not from my reading, he didn't ask why they do what they do - he asked about grounding in the traditional way & is it better to achieve the "benefits" that grounding devices provide
"HI everybody I have a small question to ask, been reading a lot about grounding products and their benefits but what I would like to know is that if a proper grounding is done in the traditional way like in the old days with a good copper rod installed in the correct manner in the Earth is it not a better way of grounding than having another box in the room however small and will it give the same benefit of the grounding boxes available ?"

Why don't you start with your theories and we will pick it up from there. Right now we are stuck in the mud with the seemingly trivial nature of the Entreq box eluding us from any theory we can put forward that sticks.

It looks to me like you are in a rut, Amir - the op didn't ask for theories of how these grounding devices work.

This is backward. You need to start with what is wrong with your system audibly first. Explain that to me and then we can look for cause and effect.

I don't know why you are taking this aggressive approach? In my experience an improvement in a system doesn't come about because of identifying a audible problem with a system - it usually comes about just by hearing something which, to my auditory perception, gives me some more realism or insight into the audio playback. So, it seems to me that you have it backward.

The worst thing one can do with these tweaks is to believe some fancy sounding theory of what is wrong with your system and run off to "fix it." Because if you do you fall victim to the marketing pitch of these companies. "Your electrons aren't lined up so here is a wire that lines them up." Who says I had such a problem and where is the evidence that the fix was that???

What do you think it is?

I believe most people don't imagine they have anything wrong with their system & or that Entreq have tried to instill this discontent in anybody by their marketing - you seem to be fixated on this idea of a person who tries this only does so because they feel there is something "wrong" with their system? In fact it seems people try this product & I see them saying that it improves the sound of their system - it's others who are telling them that therefore their grounding was sub-optimal & needs fixing. In answer to some of my questions, it now is stated that these people would have no way of ascertaining this "grounding problem" except via measurements & would have no way of fixing it either, except using measurements. But now that the Entreq seems to provide an audible benefit (& we have seen - a measureable benefit), the argument is that their system was broken in the first place.

So what are we to ascertain - Entreq is fixing a problem that people didn't know they had in the first place & doing so without the need for them to invest time & energy in equipment & expertise for doing noise measurements of their systems?

It strikes me that now you are confusing matters by putting the cart before the horse by asking what problem needs to be fixed - it seems to me that is circular logic

I believe the OP asked a simple question - is "proper" grounding not a better way? This question has a number of qualifications needed - what is "proper" grounding (something I tired to open up in the discussion) & the other qualification is what "benefits" is he referring to in his question?

 

[jkeny]

I like to see what he has written. If something goes to the wire in the box, what is keeping it from doing the reverse? If the device is piezoelectric, then what is keeping the large vibrations created by the sound in your room from generating current and riding on top of your ground wire? You would have a nice little feedback loop now.

Folks go through a lot of trouble to isolate their electronics. If what he says is true and he can't demonstrate one-directionality then you are feeding orders of magnitude more of that sound vibration back into the system!

I guess you can test this theory when you take up PO's offer of a box & are willing to do the measurements?

 

[amirm]

Amir you seem to me to be trapped by your technical knowledge and unable to countenance the experience of people with undeniably high end systems.
Mike Lavigne, for example, has what seems to me and to others to be
one of the best systems there is and he has consistently reported the benefits he hears from Entreq and Tripoint.

You need to pick a different witness than Mike. I have tested one of his tweaks, the Regen and found it ineffective. But sure, get him to tell us that his system is not great sounding without these boxes and explain how others heaped praise on it beforehand and we have something to discuss.

For now, I will repeat what was factual: I go to shows with all kinds of high-end systems without either one of these tweaks. Tell me if they are such a needed component why not every high-end system has one of these on it. And when they don't, what I should listen for in what is broken.

 

[jkeny]

We did a survey about a year or two ago regarding grounding systems such as these. Here are the results:

In cases where the equipment in the audio system (amplifier, preamp, etc.) have errors in their respective grounding systems, a box such as the ones mentioned can help. An example of a 'grounding error' might be where the chassis and circuit ground in an amplifier are the same thing (making the amplifier prone to ground loops) or where the chassis and circuit ground are the same thing, except that the amplifier chassis is not in turn grounded into the wall via the AC cord (middle connection on the IEC connector not hooked up).

If the equipment uses proper grounding technique, no benefit derives from grounding boxes (and in at least one case, this is mentioned in the owner's manual of one of those boxes).




See above.

The problem in audio is grounding is poorly understood! So some equipment is properly grounded and other bits are not. IMO, rather than using a grounding box which is really expensive and yielding highly variable results, instead if there is a grounding problem the equipment with the problems should be fixed. To that end it should meet UL or CE grounding requirements (meaning that the chassis will be grounded through the AC power cord to the building ground) and at the same time not susceptible to ground loops. If the gear meets those criteria, an external grounding box won't bring anything to the table.

I agree with all this & would like to ask & to add
- what percentage of user's systems had grounding issues & were they aware of this issue?
- how difficult do you think the consumer has with recognising "proper" grounding is so poorly understood even by manufacturers?
- How is one to know if one has a ground issue if one doesn't do measurements, (except by using one of these boxes)
- sure, fixing the problem is the best solution but how many can do this?