Grounding

[Folsom]

Most power conditioners seen in high end audio are extremely limited in their abilities! The best I've seen are made by Elgar, and not pointed at all at the audio market, which is a shame as they made the best ever made by quite a long shot!

Your closing statement does not sound right- is that really what you meant to say?

What doesn't sound right?

Some appliances have super high PSRR due to transistor topology, others have voltage regulators with good PSRR, others use inductors and capacitors creatively, etc. Some even have AC filters on the inlet. Look at the Parasound JC 3. It however could cause really bad things in your stereo, too, because of the filter (as far as I can see).

It's true not all power conditioners are equal. I prefer my own Can you provide a link to an Elgar unit you like?

 

[amirm]

Over the years I have had dealings with acknowledged national and international experts in a number of other fields. My experience was that most of them were remarkably modest and when confronted with something new to them, which seemed to have some unverified substance, they tended to reserve their judgement rather than to just dismiss it out of hand. They accepted that somebody else might have come up with something new that was valid and effective.
Given the widely accepted difficulty of correlating technical equipment and features with actual sounds your certainty does not convince me.

I said nothing about myself. I stated clear facts: that superbly sounding and measuring systems exist in huge numbers without these boxes.

If we take that factual statement then if you are factually hearing an improvement it must be because you were not able to put together a system as well as others can. You can live with this consequence or join me in accepting that the sighted listening tests are potentially to blame and there is nothing wrong with your system .

 

[amirm]

We did a survey about a year or two ago regarding grounding systems such as these. Here are the results:

I want to make sure Ralph that you are talking about the same devices we are talking about. These are not "grounding" devices of any sort. They are mistakenly called that. This is what is inside of one sans the granule that is removed:

The signal ground is connected to the wire you see and it goes no where else. No connection to mains or earth outside. Just a stand-alone box connected to the signal ground. Are these the devices you tested?

 

[Folsom]

So what are we to ascertain - Entreq is fixing a problem that people didn't know they had in the first place

NO. It is not doing that. Please stop repeating that. I don't care if the Pope told you that, it's wrong. It's not an "opinion" matter either. It's a physical impossibility.

 

[amirm]

I guess you can test this theory when you take up PO's offer of a box & are willing to do the measurements?

I will be testing this but looks like I have to buy my own still since he is not allowing me to examine what is inside their loaner equipment.

 

[Folsom]

Amirm the photo doesn't show it well but I believe that there's a wire and a plate, is there not?

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

....it must be because you were not able to put together a system as well as others can.....

I don't think this follows a necessary consequence Amir.

Barry may well have put together a system as well as others, but has improved his experience by the use of grounding boxes.

Edit: I bought a small Entreq grounding box for a Devialet 200 I had a couple years ago, and my experience is it made zero difference, despite claims by other Devialet owners of miraculous changes in their systems. Who knows - maybe it worked for them. Everyone's mileage differs in this crazy hobby.

 

[jkeny]

I think discussing ground is fine. To start off, there's no way in hell the Entreq boxes are only working to "fix" anything. It's not even possible. They however may be providing a benefit. I'm tempted to call them a 'field interruption device'.

It's true some audio equipment's grounding schemes serve audio poorly, but meet safety standards. This isn't necessarily found all the time. It's not so common that say Rockitman's expensive fantastic stereo is absolutely riddled with "problems" so the boxes do something for him.

There's no point in trying to select equipment based on grounding. The only way you could even begin to do that is to look inside, see the schematic, measure, etc. You could have a power conditioner that provides some isolation for grounding, and even cleans it up a touch. But nothing is going to do what the Entreq boxes do. The idea is entirely preposterous.

I'm with you & open to the possibility that there is more going on than just a fix to a "badly grounded" system but I'm trying to eliminate this issue first as I find that, like Atmosphere, grounding is a poorly understood area & is often sub-optimal in a multi-device system, especially when it includes a computer in the chain.

jkenny, your spirit is in the right place but you're asking the wrong questions about grounding. And then you're supposing the grounding is the end-sum-all displacement for noise, which isn't true at all. You can't just 'ground more stuff' to eliminate all noise. And while at times one can hear noise as you describe in the audible region, that's typically when something is wrong. 99% of the time for a home stereo you don't hear the noise as an audible thing, an artifact. You could have a lot of noise but you wouldn't "hear it" as a thing. What you can hear is the affect it has on your music; but you can't recognize it until you've heard it without the noise changing the sound of the music. That when different power conditioners come into play. Different appliances in the signal chain have more or less ability to reject/attenuate noise but that's not easy to discern unless you know a lot about electronics and get to look inside.

Folsom, I agree with you & I have said pretty much what you have just said in my reply to Amir - I find that RF(?) noise on the ground of digital devices isn't noticeable in itself as audible noise, it just kills the dynamics of the sound. Do people recognise this as a problem - no, they often mistake it for the sound of some digital systems - not very interesting & lacking in life. Only when they hear a system with natural dynamics do they recognise their system has a problem.

 

[Barry2013]

I said nothing about myself. I stated clear facts: that superbly sounding and measuring systems exist in huge numbers without these boxes.

If we take that factual statement then if you are factually hearing an improvement it must be because you were not able to put together a system as well as others can. You can live with this consequence or join me in accepting that the sighted listening tests are potentially to blame and there is nothing wrong with your system .

Full details of my system are on my profile and open to inspection by all.

 

[amirm]

Amirm the photo doesn't show it well but I believe that there's a wire and a plate, is there not?

I don't know. There is nothing but plywood all around except with the bottom view which looks like a different color. Let's say that is the plate. Why is it on the side?

 

[jkeny]

I will be testing this but looks like I have to buy my own still since he is not allowing me to examine what is inside their loaner equipment.

Huh, exactly what are you intending to measure & why does it require that you to open the device?
Correct me if I'm wrong but are you not the one who stated that measurements on the analogue out was the only worthwhile measure of audibility?

 

[amirm]

Barry may well have put together a system as well as others, but has improved his experience by the use of grounding boxes.

I put far higher odds of him having put together a great system than grounding box having made any improvement!

And isn't your post just a tad inflammatory/argumentative?

Not if you read it like I meant it above . I am trying to get Barry and others to think why their system is broken in the first place to need such devices. Why the lack of confidence in what they have put together and designers who produced equipment with no assumption of a grounding box being needed?

We start off here thinking someone has screwed up knowledge of system design and proceed to use our own lay opinion of what is broken and the electronic fix for it. This is not correct reasoning.

Edit: I bought a small Entreq grounding box for a Devialet 200 I had a couple years ago, and my experience is it made zero difference, despite claims by other Devialet owners of miraculous changes in their systems. Who knows - maybe it worked for them. Everyone's mileage differs in this crazy hobby.

Thanks for sharing that. I don't think our mileage is nearly as different as we think .

 

[jkeny]

NO. It is not doing that. Please stop repeating that. I don't care if the Pope told you that, it's wrong. It's not an "opinion" matter either. It's a physical impossibility.

Folsom, as I said, I'm open to the possibility that these grounding devices are doing more than "proper grounding". Was it you who referenced SCIN "shield current induced noise" which is not an issue that "proper grounding" will address. I didn't see a link to the RANE article in your post but here it is. This is an issue of proper shielding & an effective low pass input filter, not a star grounding issue.

So, I'm not against what you are saying, just want to get the "proper grounding" issue out of the way first. And even if turns out that the Entreq is a way of addressing issues in "improperly grounded" devices, is this such a crime or ? The device has come in for a lot of abusive comment but then no viable alternative is offered for how one should put together a "properly grounded" system without being able to measure the ground noise. So my position is that those who say "proper grounding" is the solution need to say how to achieve "proper grounding" otherwise they are proffering a "solution" which has no viability for most

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

I put far higher odds of him having put together a great system than grounding box having made any improvement!

So do I, but that isn't the point.

I am trying to get Barry and others to think why their system is broken in the first place

It may not be. It just may improve - subjectively - by the use of these boxes. Whether it exist objectively cannot be determined via a forum. There is lots of foo out there that may or may not make any difference to the way a system sounds to an individual. Cables are a prime example. I can't explain why it should be, but I can hear differences. Not always improvements but differences, certainly.

Of course you or I may hear no improvement at all with Entreq boxes. But that doesn't mean others cannot or do not. Reminds me of a dealer swapping out a power cable on a demo system I once heard and gushing about the improvement - when I heard...no difference at all. Who knows - perhaps he did. It's not for me to say he didn't. All I can do is vote with my wallet

Thanks for sharing that. I don't think our mileage is nearly as different as we think

Probably very true.

 

[esldude]

I want to make sure Ralph that you are talking about the same devices we are talking about. These are not "grounding" devices of any sort. They are mistakenly called that. This is what is inside of one sans the granule that is removed:

The signal ground is connected to the wire you see and it goes no where else. No connection to mains or earth outside. Just a stand-alone box connected to the signal ground. Are these the devices you tested?

The plates in the pic are outside of the box on the upper edge of the pic. Whether they originally touched the copper wire or were simply placed in the granules is not clear. I believe they contacted the wire. One plate per wire.

 

[Atmasphere]

I agree with all this & would like to ask & to add
- what percentage of user's systems had grounding issues & were they aware of this issue?
- how difficult do you think the consumer has with recognising "proper" grounding is so poorly understood even by manufacturers?
- How is one to know if one has a ground issue if one doesn't do measurements, (except by using one of these boxes)
- sure, fixing the problem is the best solution but how many can do this?

-About 95% that had the boxes and liked them had measurable grounding problems in the design of their equipment.
-extremely difficult
-ground loop problems would be one way. Getting zapped might be another
-any manufacturer in business today has access to proper grounding technique through the internet. Whether they choose to take advantage of the improved performance thus available is an entirely different issue. But they have the responsibility to make sure their equipment works and is safe to operate.

What doesn't sound right?

Some appliances have super high PSRR due to transistor topology, others have voltage regulators with good PSRR, others use inductors and capacitors creatively, etc. Some even have AC filters on the inlet. Look at the Parasound JC 3. It however could cause really bad things in your stereo, too, because of the filter (as far as I can see).

It's true not all power conditioners are equal. I prefer my own Can you provide a link to an Elgar unit you like?

Your comment seemed to imply that the grounding problem could be heard but at the same time could not be detected unless the equipment was opened up. It could be interpreted other ways as well so I thought you might want to clarify.

Here's a link to an Elgar unit on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELGAR-5000B...823890?hash=item5429d11fd2:g:TVkAAOSwXshWqoHU

This unit uses an enormous isolation transformer, with a feedback winding. A high precision low distortion oscillator is synchronously locked to the line frequency; a comparator looks at its output vs. that of the isolation transformer. Then a feedback amplifier applies the resulting feedback signal to the feedback winding. The result is line voltage regulation and an utter lack of spikes, hash, with no harmonics of the line frequency (FWIW the 5th being the most deleterious BTW). So it can produce a clean sine wave right up to full power, which is in this case enough to run any audiophile system made- the unit is enormous. Its also physically noisy and so should be placed near the breaker box and then feed the audio room. All 'high end' audio conditioners fall flat on their faces by comparison. Smaller versions were made.

I want to make sure Ralph that you are talking about the same devices we are talking about. These are not "grounding" devices of any sort. They are mistakenly called that. This is what is inside of one sans the granule that is removed:

[photo removed]

The signal ground is connected to the wire you see and it goes no where else. No connection to mains or earth outside. Just a stand-alone box connected to the signal ground. Are these the devices you tested?

We did not test any of the so-called grounding devices! What we did is have the owners of the equipment do some simple measurements to find out how the rest of the equipment in their system was grounded- if it was done correctly or not. For all the 'grounding box' owners we surveyed, 100% also owned amps or preamps or other gear that had bugs in their grounding schemes.

Its my experience that when equipment is improperly grounded, its more susceptible to noise and ground loop intermodulations (read that as 'distortion'). So its really not a surprise that a box that does something with wires and the ground might have some sort of audible effect. Whether its an improvement or not is another matter and not germane to my study. At the same time, it is certainly an improvement when the equipment is properly grounded- one effect immediately audible is lower background noise, which should come as no surprise. But you don't need a box to get that, you just need the equipment to be built correctly in the first place.

 

[amirm]

Huh, exactly what are you intending to measure & why does it require that you to open the device?

Well, let's say we open the unit and find holy water in there. In that case we would need to consult members of divinity to know how to test its benefits.

Alternatively we may see organic matter such as compost. In that case a soil test would be in order to determine levels of NPK.

As another very real possibility, we may find hoofprints in there in which case we need to quiz Spaz to see what he had to do with the device.

 

[Barry2013]

-About 95% that had the boxes and liked them had measurable grounding problems in the design of their equipment.
-extremely difficult
-ground loop problems would be one way. Getting zapped might be another
-any manufacturer in business today has access to proper grounding technique through the internet. Whether they choose to take advantage of the improved performance thus available is an entirely different issue. But they have the responsibility to make sure their equipment works and is safe to operate.


Your comment seemed to imply that the grounding problem could be heard but at the same time could not be detected unless the equipment was opened up. It could be interpreted other ways as well so I thought you might want to clarify.

Here's a link to an Elgar unit on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ELGAR-5000B...823890?hash=item5429d11fd2:g:TVkAAOSwXshWqoHU

This unit uses an enormous isolation transformer, with a feedback winding. A high precision low distortion oscillator is synchronously locked to the line frequency; a comparator looks at its output vs. that of the isolation transformer. Then a feedback amplifier applies the resulting feedback signal to the feedback winding. The result is line voltage regulation and an utter lack of spikes, hash, with no harmonics of the line frequency (FWIW the 5th being the most deleterious BTW). So it can produce a clean sine wave right up to full power, which is in this case enough to run any audiophile system made- the unit is enormous. Its also physically noisy and so should be placed near the breaker box and then feed the audio room. All 'high end' audio conditioners fall flat on their faces by comparison. Smaller versions were made.




We did not test any of the so-called grounding devices! What we did is have the owners of the equipment do some simple measurements to find out how the rest of the equipment in their system was grounded- if it was done correctly or not. For all the 'grounding box' owners we surveyed, 100% also owned amps or preamps or other gear that had bugs in their grounding schemes.

Its my experience that when equipment is improperly grounded, its more susceptible to noise and ground loop intermodulations (read that as 'distortion'). So its really not a surprise that a box that does something with wires and the ground might have some sort of audible effect. Whether its an improvement or not is another matter and not germane to my study. At the same time, it is certainly an improvement when the equipment is properly grounded- one effect immediately audible is lower background noise, which should come as no surprise. But you don't need a box to get that, you just need the equipment to be built correctly in the first place.

Can you say whether any of the components in my system (full details in my profile) have design flaws?

 

[jkeny]

Well, let's say we open the unit and find holy water in there. In that case we would need to consult members of divinity to know how to test its benefits.

Alternatively we may see organic matter such as compost. In that case a soil test would be in order to determine levels of NPK.

As another very real possibility, we may find hoofprints in there in which case we need to quiz Spaz to see what he had to do with the device.

I find your comments don't auger well for your objectivity in any testing you intend to perform on the device. Why not save everybody the time, bypass testing & just declare the device no better than a rock from the garden - why the need for the measurement pretence?

 

[Barry2013]

Well, let's say we open the unit and find holy water in there. In that case we would need to consult members of divinity to know how to test its benefits.

Alternatively we may see organic matter such as compost. In that case a soil test would be in order to determine levels of NPK.

As another very real possibility, we may find hoofprints in there in which case we need to quiz Spaz to see what he had to do with the device.

Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!