I believe there is always a portion of the sounds into lower ohms that remains Class A...ie, at 4ohms, the first 87.5 watts is pure Class A, at 2ohms its half that...yes?
Gryphon Mephisto (and Alexandrias)
- Thread starter LL21
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I believe there is always a portion of the sounds into lower ohms that remains Class A...ie, at 4ohms, the first 87.5 watts is pure Class A, at 2ohms its half that...yes?
Class A ratings is usually at 8 ohm , you can half it for every halfing of impedance. Class-a Idle current is fixed, using ohm's law as impedance drops and current is fixed class-a power will be lower and your amp will revert to class a/b and clip at its operating voltage.
the gryphon is designed to deliver its full class -a rating into 8 ohm right up to clipping, this allows them via marketing to claim full class -a operation and this is true for 8ohm only ...
Common practice ...
the gryphon is designed to deliver its full class -a rating into 8 ohm right up to clipping, this allows them via marketing to claim full class -a operation and this is true for 8ohm only ...
Common practice ...
Class A ratings is usually at 8 ohm , you can half it for every halfing of impedance. Class-a Idle current is fixed, using ohm's law as impedance drops and current is fixed class-a power will be lower and your amp will revert to class a/b and clip at its operating voltage.
the gryphon is designed to deliver its full class -a rating into 8 ohm right up to clipping, this allows them via marketing to claim full class -a operation and this is true for 8ohm only ...
Common practice ...
Thanks, A.Wayne...much appreciated.
The discussion about class A is mostly academic. Gryphon people quote an idle power for the stereo of 700W and a class A power at 8 ohms of 175W - just the exact maximum theoretical value that can not be reached in a real amplifier.
Reading their specifications we would conclude that the Mephisto solo's (mono's) is "more" class A than the stereo and that the Colosseum is perhaps better than the Mephisto as its distortion at 50W is .01% better for the Colosseum, although the SNR of the Mephisto is 1 dB better than that of the Colosseum. What should be the more important parameter in this choice?
Reading their specifications we would conclude that the Mephisto solo's (mono's) is "more" class A than the stereo and that the Colosseum is perhaps better than the Mephisto as its distortion at 50W is .01% better for the Colosseum, although the SNR of the Mephisto is 1 dB better than that of the Colosseum. What should be the more important parameter in this choice?
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Yes I agreed the discussion is purely academic. The test is in listening . Just communicated with my distributor who is the longest serving distributor of Gryphon , that at full bias it's class A until the power demands exceed the set bias level. These are the words of the dealers.
By the way some of us in Malaysia had the opportunity to spend a couple of hours with Flemming when he was in Malaysia & we grilled him about his designs etc
By the way some of us in Malaysia had the opportunity to spend a couple of hours with Flemming when he was in Malaysia & we grilled him about his designs etc
Its more than just merely academic , if you buy 500 bhp , you should get 500 bhp, this notion that specs are not warranted is nothing more than phoobie dust IMO.
Specs are necessary in every phase , without them designers would have no direction , the real issue is not the equipment specs per say , but the real ideal of not having specs that identify each individual sonic tastes and colored biases ...
If there are those thinking their amplifier is putting out 700 watts class-a at 2 ohm and its not so , then the real travesty is allowing such to continue (equivalent to 2400 watts@8ohm)
Just saying ...
Specs are necessary in every phase , without them designers would have no direction , the real issue is not the equipment specs per say , but the real ideal of not having specs that identify each individual sonic tastes and colored biases ...
If there are those thinking their amplifier is putting out 700 watts class-a at 2 ohm and its not so , then the real travesty is allowing such to continue (equivalent to 2400 watts@8ohm)
Just saying ...
Thanks Audioblazer...i guess the question is...when does the power demand exceed the set bias level so that the amp leaves Class A? For example, if the speaker load is 4ohms and we start to crank the volume...when does Class A finish? It appears the answer provided here is after 87.5 watts of power...beyond this until the 350th watt...its not Class A any longer. Still, that is way better than many amps some of us speak about as "high powered Class A amps" that even at 8ohms really leave Class A after 25-35 watts...and possibly at 4ohms leave Class A at 12.5-17 watts.
In the end, your first statement i totally agree with...its all about the listening for me too. Love the Gryphon sound.
Hey Audioblazer...btw what is the rest of your system again? You've got Pandora/Mephisto, that i know from earlier posts. Forgot your system...thanks for any insight!
Sirs, I would like to attempt to clarify this matter of Class A watts and Class A amps. I am the distributor for Gryphon and Jadis in Singapore and Malaysia. Both these OEMs design and manufacture some the finest Class A amps. This is still in pretty lay man terms so it may not satisfy everyone and I am not in a position to go into the in depth math and electronics engineering principles.
Basically, Class A is a classification to define the operating mode of an amplifier. It does not define the "quality" or "type" of watts a particular design puts out. So a "Class A" watts is a misnomer. In simple terms in a Class A amp the devices are biased such that the devices are never switched off and power demands are always met... So to speak. There are of course constraints and limits. Those being the safe operating limits of the devices and the power supply unit limitations and the electrical mains limits.
Using water supply as an analogy, amplification is like turning the tap/valve open more or less so as to allow more water to flow according to the demand. Modulating the valve according to a signal that tells the controller to open or close the valve,is like operating in Class B mode.
If the valve is left fully open and the user just take what he needs, there will never be a situation where he has to signal for more water by signalling to the controller, wait for the controller's actions and wait for the flow till his demands are met. This would be akin to Class A mode of operation. Consequently, there is lots of water wasted since most of the time only a portion is required and used. Likewise in a Class A amp, this waste is dissipated in the form of heat. In such a Class A mode when the demand/load is increased from 1 cup to 2 cups then doubled again to 4 cups and then 8 cups of water at different instances, these demands will be satisfied immediately since the valve is always fully open.
There are also limitations in the water analogy, water supply is limited in the upstream pipe sizes and the supply tank or reservoir and main pump capacity. So, our water supply analogy may have a max of say, 11 cups with the tap fully open? Again, likewise in an amp - the limitations are the amp's power supply design and its limits and the mains supply off the wall. The larger and faster the supply, the more stable the whole demand-supply system will operate. In our amp we may have a max designed load limit of say, 0.5ohms when the bias is set at max, 100% of the devices' designed capability.
In amplifiers power is = voltage x current. Assuming voltage is held constant, power is then satisfied by supplying current to the circuit. Again in simple terms, that is what them Gryphon amps are designed to do, they have massive current delivery capacities. And in operating at max or full device bias, Class A mode, the amps allow power output to double witha corresponding increase in load, ie, a drop in impedance...
I hope this explanation, patchy as it is, helps... It's 2 am here now... ;-)
Basically, Class A is a classification to define the operating mode of an amplifier. It does not define the "quality" or "type" of watts a particular design puts out. So a "Class A" watts is a misnomer. In simple terms in a Class A amp the devices are biased such that the devices are never switched off and power demands are always met... So to speak. There are of course constraints and limits. Those being the safe operating limits of the devices and the power supply unit limitations and the electrical mains limits.
Using water supply as an analogy, amplification is like turning the tap/valve open more or less so as to allow more water to flow according to the demand. Modulating the valve according to a signal that tells the controller to open or close the valve,is like operating in Class B mode.
If the valve is left fully open and the user just take what he needs, there will never be a situation where he has to signal for more water by signalling to the controller, wait for the controller's actions and wait for the flow till his demands are met. This would be akin to Class A mode of operation. Consequently, there is lots of water wasted since most of the time only a portion is required and used. Likewise in a Class A amp, this waste is dissipated in the form of heat. In such a Class A mode when the demand/load is increased from 1 cup to 2 cups then doubled again to 4 cups and then 8 cups of water at different instances, these demands will be satisfied immediately since the valve is always fully open.
There are also limitations in the water analogy, water supply is limited in the upstream pipe sizes and the supply tank or reservoir and main pump capacity. So, our water supply analogy may have a max of say, 11 cups with the tap fully open? Again, likewise in an amp - the limitations are the amp's power supply design and its limits and the mains supply off the wall. The larger and faster the supply, the more stable the whole demand-supply system will operate. In our amp we may have a max designed load limit of say, 0.5ohms when the bias is set at max, 100% of the devices' designed capability.
In amplifiers power is = voltage x current. Assuming voltage is held constant, power is then satisfied by supplying current to the circuit. Again in simple terms, that is what them Gryphon amps are designed to do, they have massive current delivery capacities. And in operating at max or full device bias, Class A mode, the amps allow power output to double witha corresponding increase in load, ie, a drop in impedance...
I hope this explanation, patchy as it is, helps... It's 2 am here now... ;-)
Eggleston savoy signature, raven AC 3 with Schroeder 2fw paired with Zyx omega gold , raven 10.5 paired with Zyx xv-1s, garrard 301 with Ortofon A90 on 12" Reed2P ( waiting for a long long time for Mark Kelly PSU) , thoren 124 ( waiting for slate plinth ) with Ortofon spu 95th anniversary on Thomas schick ,Tron seven ultimate phono (with silver transformer & wiring ) Studer A810 modified by Bottlehead to accept Bottlehead Repro tape head preamp with v caps .Cables - 3m transparent opus mm1 speaker cables, 6m Gryphon guideline reference XLR modified with furutech carbon fibre plug, transparent reference RCA, MIT oracle 1.1 RCA, Audioquest sky RCA , transparent PLMM pc, isoclean focus supreme PC, gryphon M5 PC self terminated with furutech carbon fibre plug & IEC, acoustic revive RTP 6 ultimate conditioner . I m a sucker for tweak like synergistic research acoustic ART, steinmusic harmonics with various magic stones , epad+, shun mook footers, shun mook mpingo etc etc
All these in a dedicated room with 9 dedicated lines with wattgate , furutech gtx -rhodium , porter port sockets and its own grounding & sub panel modified with solid pure copper bars & ALB MCB 10kv. Room size 14.5 x 24.75 x 10.5ft acoustically designed by Rives Audio ( level 1 only on Malaysia & didn't really work) I removed most of the absorption panels and self design 2D prime root diffuser 1" block ( 1024 pieces , at least 50kg each panel 2x4) and 1D diffuser with 8mm glass as fin.
How does it sound ? Not too bad but I expect more .
Future improvement . Probably on phono & v likely speaker . Candidate - Gryphon Trident , Wilson Alexandria series 2 etc. My prefer speakers would be Alexandria XLF which I heard it in a buddy house - so real but too pricey & either gryphon Poseidon or Pendragon if my room is big enough , unfortunately it's not. Next house maybe
Will post it soon once I get my new custom made rack with 3x1.25" aluminium frame with various solid wood (3-4") weighing at least 200kg.
All these in a dedicated room with 9 dedicated lines with wattgate , furutech gtx -rhodium , porter port sockets and its own grounding & sub panel modified with solid pure copper bars & ALB MCB 10kv. Room size 14.5 x 24.75 x 10.5ft acoustically designed by Rives Audio ( level 1 only on Malaysia & didn't really work) I removed most of the absorption panels and self design 2D prime root diffuser 1" block ( 1024 pieces , at least 50kg each panel 2x4) and 1D diffuser with 8mm glass as fin.
How does it sound ? Not too bad but I expect more .
Future improvement . Probably on phono & v likely speaker . Candidate - Gryphon Trident , Wilson Alexandria series 2 etc. My prefer speakers would be Alexandria XLF which I heard it in a buddy house - so real but too pricey & either gryphon Poseidon or Pendragon if my room is big enough , unfortunately it's not. Next house maybe
Will post it soon once I get my new custom made rack with 3x1.25" aluminium frame with various solid wood (3-4") weighing at least 200kg.
Beautiful...i have never heard Eggleston's before. I have heard the alexandria series 2 and XLF. I read thru your incredible system...great stuff...how is the Isolcean power conditioner? I use the Transparent Ref power conditioner...mainly because i needed the outlets and also because i got surge protection. It did improve the sound a bit on the source and pre...obviously do not use on the Gryphon. How is the Isoclean?...i've heard good things about it. Any comparisons to other power conditioners? Thanks for any insight. enjoy your system!
Hi Lloyd,
If the amps are selected for High Bias mode on the Colloseum or Mephisto, they do not leave Class A operating mode. The other selections, Low and Medium Bias will put the amps in a Class A/AB mode, Class A at approximately 50% and 75% respectively, of rated power before going into AB mode.
If the amps are selected for High Bias mode on the Colloseum or Mephisto, they do not leave Class A operating mode. The other selections, Low and Medium Bias will put the amps in a Class A/AB mode, Class A at approximately 50% and 75% respectively, of rated power before going into AB mode.
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Mephisto stereo dual mono designed with 2 gryhon power cord to the wall. I m using acoustic revive RTP 6 conditioner & exact power conditioner for HT. Forgotten to mention that I have nordost QV 2- plug it on any empty conditioner outlet & u will be amaze what it can do. I have 3 Schumann resonators . I m crazing about tweaking .
My isoclean focus supreme is a power cord . I prefer it to lessloss signature , transparent PLMM PC . I m using a nordost Valhalla PC as well
If you are looking for conditioner check out gigawatt from Poland . Interest parts on the conditioner .
My isoclean focus supreme is a power cord . I prefer it to lessloss signature , transparent PLMM PC . I m using a nordost Valhalla PC as well
If you are looking for conditioner check out gigawatt from Poland . Interest parts on the conditioner .
Thanks...got it. i have heard good things about Acoustic Revive. I also have Nordost QX4...i go from wall into QX4 into my Transparent Ref Power Conditioner which then feeds my front end. I also use HRS nimbus couplers/dampers and also Artesania dampers which i got as a gift from my folks.
Have you tried Tripoint...the Spartan power conditioner and also the grounding unit? I was pretty impressed at Audio Exotics when i visited there.
I use PAD Dominus and Ann Contego on everthing except Gryphon's own Ref cable for the amp since it came with the unit when i bought it 2nd hand, as well as a new company called Sablon Audio (Oppo). BTW, i saw the Gigawatt website...impressive!...interestingly i was originally thinking of Accuphase as recommended here locally. And the review that Gigawatt has on their website actually says the Gigawatt is the best designed power conditioner the reviewer as seen, other than perhaps the 2 big Accuphase models.
TKHan, Your reputation here precedes you! Many congratulations on being apparently a very successful dealer of Gryphon and of the sales of the might Pandora and Mephisto. Thanks also for taking the time...clearly business is keeping occupied!!
I think the technical question is what happens when the speaker load drops to 4 ohms...is [any] amplifier able to continue deliver wattage via Class A...i think someone here has posted the math of what it would take to do this...i think because Class A is so inefficient (maybe 20%-35% of its total heat goes into audio wattage...the rest into heat)...that we'd be talking tens of thousands of amps being consumed to deliver, say, 700 watts into a 2ohm load or something. I apologize...have not the technical knowledge here.Perhaps if it is not too much trouble, if Gryphon could tell you what the Mephisto's peak Class A delivery is into a 4ohm load, that would be appreciated!! Always learning.
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