Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[spiritofmusic]

Found some SET monoblocks that really suit my system, Audion Black Shadows, at a reasonable price that opens up the possibility of taking the plunge on active isolation. Feel that the range of varied improvements from my i4 demo just about justifies itself, and the technology is pretty cool.
I'm getting to a point re upgrades of cognitive ease, eliminating cognitive dissonance. That is, less and less drawing of attention, conciously or subconciously to the sound produced by my hifi. As a result I'm much more 'in the moment', not thinking about the sound character of components, and not thinking/desiring any more major equipment upgrades. SET amps really will complete the perfect system for me, and further inroads into system-wide improvements like active isolation and OTT balanced power will enhance potential to the max.

 

[rockitman]

Found some SET monoblocks that really suit my system, Audion Black Shadows, at a reasonable price that opens up the possibility of taking the plunge on active isolation. Feel that the range of varied improvements from my i4 demo just about justifies itself, and the technology is pretty cool.
I'm getting to a point re upgrades of cognitive ease, eliminating cognitive dissonance. That is, less and less drawing of attention, conciously or subconciously to the sound produced by my hifi. As a result I'm much more 'in the moment', not thinking about the sound character of components, and not thinking/desiring any more major equipment upgrades. SET amps really will complete the perfect system for me, and further inroads into system-wide improvements like active isolation and OTT balanced power will enhance potential to the max.

my experience with passive Stillpoint Ultra 5's on my massive monoblocks convinced me it's well worth it. I would imagine with tube amps, the vibration damping would even more significant of a sound improvement. $20K is a hard nut when I feel my Ultra 5's get me most of the way. Most of the way was not enough for my turntable, so all out Active assault was required....

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, this thread seems to have flat lined just after I provide feedback on home trial. Must be the kiss of death!

 

[rockitman]

Well, this thread seems to have flat lined just after I provide feedback on home trial. Must be the kiss of death!

so you demoed the thing for how many days ?
Kiss of death ? Really ?
If your turntable costs less that the platform, don't bother.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian, by kiss of death I just humorously was alluding to the impression I've got that my comments on home trial have caused contributors here to cease posting! The concept of active is v. much alive I'm sure.
Re length of demo, 3hrs is all I could manage. My unit was one which had to go to a lab the next day, but I gleaned enough from that limited time to ascertain where it fitted into the grand scheme of things.
Btw, imho it's a little elitist of you to say not to bother if it costs more than the price on my rig. My cart costs more than my tt/arm, but had no qualms buying it. I hope you're not saying we should only equate price to performance? Eg after auditioning various SMEs/TW Acustics/Bardos/Grand Prix Monaco, I concluded the tt/arm I finally bought surpassed all of them, at 10-30% of the price of these! So, active should potentially be as positive with my tt as with esoteric/cost no object items.

 

[FrantzM]

so you demoed the thing for how many days ?
Kiss of death ? Really ?
If your turntable costs less that the platform, don't bother.

The emphasis is all mine. i am trying to understand what that sentence truly means, I hope I am not reading you wrong. Do you mean by that that the Herzan only works on (under ?) Turntables costing more than 12K?

 

[PeterA]

Btw, imho it's a little elitist of you to say not to bother if it costs more than the price on my rig. My cart costs more than my tt/arm, but had no qualms buying it. I hope you're not saying we should only equate price to performance? Eg after auditioning various SMEs/TW Acustics/Bardos/Grand Prix Monaco, I concluded the tt/arm I finally bought surpassed all of them, at 10-30% of the price of these! So, active should potentially be as positive with my tt as with esoteric/cost no object items.

Spirit, Active isolation may be even more effective on a less expensive turntable, especially one that does not have the budget to consider isolation at its price point. Some expensive turntables have as part of their design, very effective isolation (suspension), and at first glance, it would not seem as though they would benefit as much from an after market solution. However, as I found out, there are plenty exceptions to this. I did notice a significant improvement when I placed my suspended turntable on an isolation platform. I did notice an even greater improvement though when I placed the same isolation under my unsuspended SME Model 10, relative to the overall performance of each table.

I would think your turntable would benefit greatly from active isolation. Whether you value that benefit more than allocating those funds elsewhere, only you can answer.

I hope this thread doesn't die. I'm really looking forward to reading about Christian's experience with the Herzan versus the HRS. The TechDas may even sound great without any aftermarket isolation, given its integrated air isolation footers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Well, this thread seems to have flat lined just after I provide feedback on home trial. Must be the kiss of death!

I've been keeping my Herzan comments to my Audiogon thread as this thread got so weird and reactionary. I have experimented with footers on top of the Herzan to good result.

 

[mep]

At 51 pages and counting, this thread doesn't look like it's on life support to me.

 

[microstrip]

The emphasis is all mine. i am trying to understand what that sentence truly means, I hope I am not reading you wrong. Do you mean by that that the Herzan only works on (under ?) Turntables costing more than 12K?

I am sure Christian knows he writes to understanding people, but you are correct - he should have added an error interval estimate to his statement. But I can add something new - since the competitor isolation table by Accurion is made in Germany, this threshold varies with the Euro/USD rate.

 

[Asamel]

Anyone know what the cost of an Accurion table is?

 

[microstrip]

Anyone know what the cost of an Accurion table is?

In Europe the price of the Micro 40 is 5.950,00 Euro and the price for the Micro 60 is 7.150,00 Euro. Local VAT must be added to this price.

 

[cjfrbw]

Hey, you guys, cut it out! This is an informercial for Herzan, not Accurion, keep on topic.

 

[rockitman]

The emphasis is all mine. i am trying to understand what that sentence truly means, I hope I am not reading you wrong. Do you mean by that that the Herzan only works on (under ?) Turntables costing more than 12K?

No, but if your turntable costs less than the active table, for most people it would not be worth it. I would buy a better turntable first. Ymmv.

 

[PeterA]

No, but if your turntable costs less than the active table, for most people it would not be worth it. I would buy a better turntable first. Ymmv.

That is an interesting question. For instance, I think that I would rather own my old unsuspended SME Model 10 on a ballasted Vibraplane then a regular SME 20/2 which actually costs more. I can't be sure because I have not had a 20/2 in my system. An SME Model 10 on the $12K Herzan might be too expensive compared to the SME 20/2.

Having heard the effect of isolation on turntables, I think I would rather have a good unsuspended mass loaded turntable on isolation than a more expensive suspended turntable with integrated isolation for the same total price. It's hard to know for sure, because it must be very dependent on the individual turntable design and then the rack on which it is placed. For example, the suspension towers on SME models work to isolate the platter/cartridge from the motor regardless of whether or not the whole unit is then placed on an isolation platform.

Throwing another variable into this equation is the considerable cost difference and the not-yet-reported performance gap between a passive solution like Vibraplane for $2,500 and an active solution like Herzan for $12,000. That would also influence the value/performance choice.

I think some of the vintage idler and DD tables would benefit greatly from active or passive isolation as Albert Porter has found with his SP10 MK3.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm not sure where this thread is going. The two most vocal proponents of active, Christian and Mike, extol it's virtues so completely, and as a percentage of overall cost, it is not a totally extravagant upgrade in their situations. One even says the component on it must exceed it's cost significantly otherwise you might as well buy a more expensive component. The other is put off by constant skeptical comment. In my case I've auditioned it with my tt/arm/cart which equates to the price of the active shelf. My conclusion was that it provided a discernable improvement, but wasn't a night and day knock out blow. Personally the all-round hiking in SQ I'm getting from the move to SETs outperforms it by a significant margin, so that's where my cash is going first. Ironically moving to all-tubes probably means that active might be an even more practical way forward re supporting all that glass in my pre and monoblocks! I'm still open to the idea of investing in it, it's just that 5 tiers really represents a big big capital outlay,and will confirm that my loved ones need to worry about audio OCD becoming incurable !

 

[NorthStar]

I think that we are at a perennial peripheral, and that this thread will help some and still continue to evolve.

It is not much about cost as it is about priorities of our disposable values.
What counts at the end is what it does for some of us (Mike And Christian); and not what it doesn't for others who cannot afford it.
...Or the ones who dismiss it all together for whatever else reason.

 

[rockitman]

I think that we are at a perennial peripheral, and that this thread will help some and still continue to evolve.

It is not much about cost as it is about priorities of our disposable values.
What counts at the end is what it does for some of us (Mike And Christian); and not what it doesn't for others who cannot afford it.
...Or the ones who dismiss it all together for whatever else reason.

well said Bob. I'm not here to convince anyone of the benefits. They are real, tangible and worth it to me in my system...Just sharing my experiences and as always, YMMV.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm not sure where this thread is going. The two most vocal proponents of active, Christian and Mike, extol it's virtues so completely, and as a percentage of overall cost, it is not a totally extravagant upgrade in their situations. One even says the component on it must exceed it's cost significantly otherwise you might as well buy a more expensive component. The other is put off by constant skeptical comment. In my case I've auditioned it with my tt/arm/cart which equates to the price of the active shelf. My conclusion was that it provided a discernable improvement, but wasn't a night and day knock out blow. Personally the all-round hiking in SQ I'm getting from the move to SETs outperforms it by a significant margin, so that's where my cash is going first. Ironically moving to all-tubes probably means that active might be an even more practical way forward re supporting all that glass in my pre and monoblocks! I'm still open to the idea of investing in it, it's just that 5 tiers really represents a big big capital outlay,and will confirm that my loved ones need to worry about audio OCD becoming incurable !

Or maybe that different turntables respond differently?

 

[spiritofmusic]

After a lot of thought, I'm going to go down the active isolation route, now that I've gone all-tube. This will mean 6 shelves in total, but will only be able to afford buying used. And I'm going to only do this as my last layer of upgrades - I'm going to first upgrade my passive Symposium Isis component rack and 2 floating Isis stands for my new monoblocks (cost of 5 layers of passive equivalent to 1(!) active layer), then a new i/c and power cord loom, and then upgraded 8kVA balanced power. There are just too many logistical issues to go active just now, and I'll get more VFM maximising current passive isolation/wiring/power which will still amount to less than 6 active shelves new. But I'm settled on the positives of active.