Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
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thanks Peter. yes, the NVS is sounding incredible. in fact, I now believe the combination of the NVS-Telos/with Sapphire-Durand Record Weight-Herzan TS-140' is as good as it gets, maybe better. sure; that is somewhat my current euphoria talking, but I think it is true. it is the result I had been expecting, but until I was able to hear it I was not sure. now I am.
even though I had a sense that the Herzan was better than the Wave Kinetics isolation shelf, I was not 100% convinced. my concern was simply how fast the active sensors might react compared to the passive shelf. but clearly it's no contest. game, set, match to the Herzan. it's better in every way, shape and form and blindingly fast. the issue is not the Wave Kinetics isolation shelf, which is an excellent passive device. it's that every passive device used to isolate any turntable pales compared directly with the Herzan. active, properly implemented, beats passive. and it's not close. and no one uses true active isolation, at best it's active leveling with passive isolation. I had that on the Rockport and as good as it was, it's not close to this. even the Caliburn only uses passive isolation.
I only really know about how the Herzan works in my particular system. my comments about what is ideal are based on reading the tutorial on the Herzan website multiple times over multiple years I've contemplated the Herzan. i am commenting about the degree of benefit that one would predict, based on the ideal conditions Herzan describes to optimize the performance. rather than me try to explain how it all works, i would strongly recommend that you read the whole tutorial under resources on the Herzan website. then we can discuss what is going on. this should be required reading for anyone contemplating isolating a turntable to sort out what's what.
i cannot know what would be the best approach with the SME 30. likely leaving it alone and simply putting it on the Herzan would yield a huge improvement.....would be my guess.
good point, and a question i was planning to ask on Monday. for now i'm turning it off when i'm not listening for an extended time.....which is not very much.
you are welcome.
thanks....i will leave it on and disabled for now when i'm not using it. i will ask Reid from Herzan that specific question and pass on his response.
Interesting discussion on audiogon a few years ago.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1170165681&openfrom&1&4
Contributor Sdlevene is a biophysicist who has used vibration isolation systems in his work.
Thread is generally about the Minus K devices, which come in about a third of the cost of the active devices.
"In most cases, laboratories opt for passive isolation over active. There are two main reasons for this: cost and complexity. Active systems have the edge in applications where settling time is critical - basically these systems behave like overdamped oscillators over a wide frequency band. A downside of active systems is that the cost is proportional to the number of degrees of freedom because of the number of transducers required. Also, feedback loops in such systems become complex; for example, small angular displacements of a payload can generate significant horizontal accelerations. Settling time shouldn't be much of an issue in analog playback as long as the resonant frequency of an isolator is well below that of the tonearm/cartridge combination. Also, for most audio applications, vertical isolation is likely to be much more important than horizontal."
The "complex feedback loops" part got my attention, since the active devices will not distinguish between environmental vibrations and vibrations (i.e. rumble) from the turntable itself.
Isolation will not improve the built in rumble limitations of any given turntable. Also, since the resonant frequency of most arm/cartridge combos range from 8-12 Hz, effective isolation at those frequencies are probably "good enough".
Aside from the testimonials, it seems that using the active devices under turntables needs more long term examination.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1170165681&openfrom&1&4
Contributor Sdlevene is a biophysicist who has used vibration isolation systems in his work.
Thread is generally about the Minus K devices, which come in about a third of the cost of the active devices.
"In most cases, laboratories opt for passive isolation over active. There are two main reasons for this: cost and complexity. Active systems have the edge in applications where settling time is critical - basically these systems behave like overdamped oscillators over a wide frequency band. A downside of active systems is that the cost is proportional to the number of degrees of freedom because of the number of transducers required. Also, feedback loops in such systems become complex; for example, small angular displacements of a payload can generate significant horizontal accelerations. Settling time shouldn't be much of an issue in analog playback as long as the resonant frequency of an isolator is well below that of the tonearm/cartridge combination. Also, for most audio applications, vertical isolation is likely to be much more important than horizontal."
The "complex feedback loops" part got my attention, since the active devices will not distinguish between environmental vibrations and vibrations (i.e. rumble) from the turntable itself.
Isolation will not improve the built in rumble limitations of any given turntable. Also, since the resonant frequency of most arm/cartridge combos range from 8-12 Hz, effective isolation at those frequencies are probably "good enough".
Aside from the testimonials, it seems that using the active devices under turntables needs more long term examination.
over the last 3 hours i had 2 local audiophile friends over and we did an A-B-A with the TS-140 and the NVS isolation platform.
with three of us it only took about 15 minutes to switch them in and out. we used 8-9 different cuts. we played them all first the TS-140 under the NVS, then on the NVS isolation platform under the NVS, and then back with the TS-140.
i cannot say whether my friends will chime in or not. and it's up to them to express their perspectives.
what i will say is the discussion after centered on 2 main topics; why doesn't every turntable come with one of these?, and what they might have to do to get one.
as far as my perceptions; they are consistent with my earlier claims.....but maybe even more intensely expressed after hearing before and after really brings it home.
we're not in Kansas anymore Toto.
with three of us it only took about 15 minutes to switch them in and out. we used 8-9 different cuts. we played them all first the TS-140 under the NVS, then on the NVS isolation platform under the NVS, and then back with the TS-140.
i cannot say whether my friends will chime in or not. and it's up to them to express their perspectives.
what i will say is the discussion after centered on 2 main topics; why doesn't every turntable come with one of these?, and what they might have to do to get one.
as far as my perceptions; they are consistent with my earlier claims.....but maybe even more intensely expressed after hearing before and after really brings it home.
we're not in Kansas anymore Toto.
It would be an interesting experiment to compare turntables of different brands using the Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table - will their performance come closer or separate even further?
And the same with CD/SACD/DVD/BD players.
* The missing link; it's up to us to improve our lives with experiments, discoveries, reading threads here at WBF, and all that jazz. :b
here is feedback i got today from my inquiry to Reid Whitney on this subject;
when i get the info from the technical engineer i will pass that along.
Thanks Mike. Seems to me, turning off active only, if you are not using it can only extend the life of the unit. So I leave power on and active off, including the LCD backlight when not in use. Under the function menu option there is the ability to turn off the lcd backlight, turning off leveling (I would never do that) and one other auto off on feature I haven't tried.
i did mess around a bit with the LCD screens, some cool stuff. the readout of the 3 lines to the reactions to feedback was cool. you can see what it's doing. i loaned the manual to one of my visitors yesterday who was interested, so i don't have it right now to refer to about those options.
but i can listen. so i'm happy.
one thing i will say.
you will never in a thousand years realize what is causing what in your system, particularly with vinyl playback and true full range speakers, until you get active isolation.
it is revelatory. like a light bulb turning on in your mind.
you will never in a thousand years realize what is causing what in your system, particularly with vinyl playback and true full range speakers, until you get active isolation.
it is revelatory. like a light bulb turning on in your mind.
Too bad it cost $12K if it's half as good as you say it is because lots of people don't have $12K to spend on something that sits under their table.
i agree with you.
but......if someone is considering upgrading their turntable for another $12k, and many are.......i cannot imagine that adding this would not yield greater gain assuming their current turntable is above a certain level.
in some ways it makes really high level vinyl more affordable than before.
it is a game changer big time.
and when you consider how many very expensive turntables have much of their value tied up in exotic suspensions that active isolation will walk all over, that's another aspect of the real value in this product for vinyl lovers. it brings high performance to more modest designs without much hassel. the plug and play aspect makes it so easy.
i'm not saying $12k is not alot of money. but many many audiophiles have $20k-$30k into their vinyl playback, and most of those have agendas to improve their tt performance.
this is the obvious next step for them.
or maybe some have multiple arms, cartridges, and turntables. sell some of them and buy this. basically that is what i've been doing for a couple of years. i've sold lots of my stuff and retained the things i actually use.
i sold my Ampex ATR-102 RTR deck to pay for the Herzan.
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Mike, that is very interesting. With the advantage of hindsight, of the following additions to your analog front end, which offered the greatest sonic improvement, and which offered the most "bang for the buck?" If you were to do it again, in which order would you do these upgrades?
1. Talea to Telos arm upgrade
2. Addition of Durand Safire mounting plate
3. Ortofon A90 to Ortofon Anna
4. Durand Record Weight
5. Herzan TS 140
I realize that some of these were before the MM7 and some after. It may also be difficult to imagine the effect of some of the upgrades without having some of the others there to help. It seems to me that you may be suggesting that having the Herzan in the system first would have made it easier to appreciate subsequent upgrades. Jim Smith told me this about the importance of the speaker/listener/room relationship enabling future upgrades to be more easily heard and differences appreciated. Boy, was he correct in this.
Do you consider active isolation to be so essential as to be almost an integral part of the turntable system to truly appreciate what it is capable of doing? Without having heard the effect of active isolation, I do feel this way about the addition of my three Vibraplanes to my turntable and amps. I could never go back to no isolation. I can dream of going to active isolation someday.
Peter,
i will give your questions some thought and respond later. i'm at work and it will require a bit of reflection to do the issues justice.
i will add that in the interests of all i think i should step back and maybe not get so gung ho just yet about active isolation. i don't want to push people into it until more people have it in various types of systems and there is feedback from those systems. after thinking here for a little while, i have to stay respectful that my system is amazingly high resolution, and that the degree of change might be more varible than i think.
and Christian may feel the same, i can't speak for him.
i guess i will just warn that YMMV, it's just one crazy guy (maybe 2 crazy guys) that has his ears on fire and all that.
my belief has not changed, i just don't want to spend anyone else's money.
hopefully; there will be a few more brave souls who will dive in here and give us more broad feedback than just myself and Christian.
i will give your questions some thought and respond later. i'm at work and it will require a bit of reflection to do the issues justice.
i will add that in the interests of all i think i should step back and maybe not get so gung ho just yet about active isolation. i don't want to push people into it until more people have it in various types of systems and there is feedback from those systems. after thinking here for a little while, i have to stay respectful that my system is amazingly high resolution, and that the degree of change might be more varible than i think.
and Christian may feel the same, i can't speak for him.
i guess i will just warn that YMMV, it's just one crazy guy (maybe 2 crazy guys) that has his ears on fire and all that.
my belief has not changed, i just don't want to spend anyone else's money.
hopefully; there will be a few more brave souls who will dive in here and give us more broad feedback than just myself and Christian.
in the benefit of hindsight, my order would be;
1. the Herzan TS140. this is a universal upgrade. any system with a turntable, any time. this would make all the other upgrades easier to understand and appreciate. more later on that subject.
2. Talea to Telos. more significant performance upgrade than the Record Weight or the Anna, and obviously necessary for the Sapphire cartridge plate. my opinion is that the Telos is flat out the very best tonearm you can own. that's just one man's opinion. the Telos upgrade makes a more significant upgrade to me personally in my system than the Herzan TS-140 for what it does uniquely for the message of the music, but I rank the Herzan higher in priority because of it's ability to help with decisions and cause and effect.
3. likely the A90 to Anna as a more significant than the Durand Record Weight but this was the most questionable choice. could go either way. the Anna is very very special and what i like most about it is that it has no ceiling of detail. everything matters and it just digs more and more detail, is so very refined, natural, explosive, dynamic, and the music is so expressive. full bodied, yet not colored. great harmonic richness. the best i've heard. the music leaps from the grooves.
4. Durand Record Weight. i've loaned it for a day to two buddies with radically different turntables (Galibier and Forsell) and both have been impressed enough to likely buy one. add my NVS and Joel's modded Lenco and Galibier and we have 5 tt's where it works well. plus a number of tt's at CES and the Newport Show. rooms I visited at the Newport Show where the record weight was used were very impressed by it and commented to me about it. i prefer it to what the vaccuum hold down on the Rockport use to do. in time i think these will be better known and respected. pretty amazing and easy to use. it brings an ease and right-ness to the music and completes it. when i forget it i always notice. what more is there to say.
5. Sapphire Cartridge plate. when i look at the various ways cartridges are attached to arm wands, and recall all the experiments Joel did with this issue and how they sounded, i cringe. this is a significant upgrade, in my system to my ears. in what type of system would it be sensible to do? a good question. when you really think about it, a cartridge mounting system is very important in the total performance of any tonearm. the higher the resolution of the whole vinyl system and particularly the tonearm, the greater the significance of the cartridge mount. it's simply the least sensational of these 5 sensational things.
I agree with Jim. as one goes down the path toward audio purity, there are points where the clouds part and a bit of truth gets exposed. clearly the speaker/listener/room becomes the view of the truth, and any lack in that will cloud the judgments that get made. and the level of resolution will expose or not expose some things. so what might be important in one system is buried in the noise floor in another system. so the view on truth is different, and both can be correct.
I do think that active isolation (or any type of isolation for that matter) helps to expose the true performance of products like the speaker/listener/room.
'essential' is a bad word to use. we are simply talking about degrees of wonderful here, not good and bad.
yes; I do think there is a significant difference between the best passive and active isolation. I think it would jump out at you, and the more capable your system and vinyl playback is the larger the difference would be.
passive isolation is still a significant way to go. and not all passive isolation is created equal.
back in 2002 I can remember when I got home from my 1600 miles overnight road trip to Marin from Seattle with my (new to me) 2 year old Rockport Sirius III turntable. I picked up my friend Jonathan in Portland on the way up and he assisted me in setting up the Siruis III when we got to my home. then we fired it up. and got a sense from that first experience with a high level air passive isolation with auto leveling. it was a big step up in resolution, bass performance and ease. it was a big deal. then I lived with that for 8 years. your active Vibraplane is very similar to the system used in the Rockport. it's very good. maybe there are now better passive isolation now such as the Minus K and those super Stillpoints. i'm sure there are a few very competent ways to go with passive.
and if you want to know how they compare to the TS-140 go to the Herzan website and read about it. they sell all that passive stuff too. and have specs for them. or get a TS-140 and compare it yourself.
really; you have a great approach already and I would not be in too much of a hurry to change.
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I'm in agreement. The TS-140 has made the most dramatic improvement to my vinyl front end. This is based on my system (table, arm, cart) being the same over the past 1.5 years, so I was very familiar with it's sound. I had the luxury of my first demo unit TS-140 failing after two weeks, so it went back out of my system for almost 3 weeks. I missed it immediately. When I got my new unit Saturday, everything went back to where I remembered it. For those on the fence, look at it this way, it costs you only shipping to try out the unit. If it doesn't work for your particular table/stand combo, you return it for a full refund minus shipping....roughly $90.00.
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