Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[Mike Lavigne]

regarding dollars and what might be considered 'High End' or not i know i have said repeatedly that the High End is a state of mind.

but pondering these concepts i do also see that maybe there is also a legit perspective about what the difference might be between what is considered being an 'audiophile' verses what is 'High End'. and that being an 'audiophile' is more the state of mind part, and possibly being 'High End' is more the higher level of gear, which is still quite an open ended concept.

that higher level of gear could be DIY, or various levels of commercial products. certainly a fuzzy sort of demarcation between a modest to good audiophile level of gear, and what constitutes the high end.

i'm just acknowledging that the hifi industry's (dealers and manufacturers and maybe some press) viewpoint of what is high or higher end and more modest is a reasonable thing.

is 'audiophile' different from 'high end'?

maybe it is and allows us to differentiate degrees of intensions.....with some connection to levels of performance or build levels. trying to use language to assign worth or value is a slippery slope of elitism and being judgmental. but some of it can help us to navigate too. the idea of 'better' or 'best' levels will always attract cynics and sarcasm.

just throwing this out there.....

 

[PeterA]

I think everyone here will agree that things can take considerable time and effort (and sometimes cost) and none of the results sound the same. You can start off with something, realize you are at a dead end, and start all over again (like what you have done). Someone else may take the same road, but be going the opposite direction. At the end, we all make compromises.

You did write that my system thread confuses you. I do not know if you read my Sublime Sound system thread. That first system thread describes my previous various Magico/Pass/SME systems with upgrades and gear evolutions. In that thread I describe how I began to experiment more with set up. I had not reached a dead end as you suggest. On the contrary, I discovered a new approach for me, and I began to pursue that. That system after the set up changes and getting rid of much of the wires, acoustic treatments, and platforms did in fact achieve natural sound. I did not at all start all over again. I sold the components and bought new ones, but I continued on that same path going after the next level of natural sound. I had not reached a dead end, but actually continued forward trying to get even closer to the same target. You missed the whole point of the two threads. And it had nothing to do with making or choosing compromises. I do not assume every component or system is a sonic compromise.

It's hard to define what "high end" is, given the disparity of results.

Some here are arguing that "high end" is defined by intention. I think that is a part of it, but that ultimately, it is the results that matter. As Elliot says, the gear is not enough. It has to be set up well to achieve a certain level of results. Yes, there is a disparity of results, but is that in terms of quality or flavor. Tastes are tastes. Good results versus bad results is different from a variety of presentation flavors that may each find its advocates. It can be argued that if they are all good but different, they may still all be high end.

Meanwhile, the music is always there, exactly the same. The reality is that you don't need a high end system to gain "insight" into the music. If you think so, you have not been listening!

The hobby is fun, however.

The recording does not change, but there can be many different presentations of the music on that recording. Yes, the system does not need to be high end to gain insight into the music or to even enjoy the music. But, some of those who pursue this hobby do think that the better the presentation, the more insight one can find, and the more enjoyment he may have. Presumably, at least some of us are here to pursue what we think is best in how we select and set up our systems to present the music in our collections to us in our rooms.

 

[Atmasphere]

Some here are arguing that "high end" is defined by intention. I think that is a part of it, but that ultimately, it is the results that matter.

You won't get results without intention to do so! Its not 'part of it', its literally all of it.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Your opinion of a player's interpretation would hold true for recorded or live music. It's a completly different topic.

I was responding to an earlier post that touched on two discussions… differences in listening to a recording versus going to a live performance and the idea of repetition of the known… the interpretation was yes, a separate topic specifically responding to a discussion about Igor Levit as a pianist.

 

[DaveC]

Is this "Natural Sound Part Deux"?

I was just catching up and read pages of more Natural Sound and Lamm amp pairing debates that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic before giving up and skipping the last 10. Maybe the last 20 pages or so can be grafted onto Peter's thread? IMO we don't need one more of them.

 

[bonzo75]

regarding dollars and what might be considered 'High End' or not i know i have said repeatedly that the High End is a state of mind.

High, low, and ultra high convey monetary values.

State of mind is more about degree of hobby.

For example, you could have a guy order a dealer to install a complete 200k system in his home, and he leaves it untouched from install. He is in the high end, but not so much an hobbyist, as the other guy who buys used items regularly for 20 years and keeps churning things, scratching different curiosities. Both of them might have an equally good or equally bad sound, but the first one is not a hobbyist compared to the second, irrespective of what the cost of equipment of the second guy is.

I just made that up but it sounds logical so must be right.

 

[PeterA]

You won't get results without intention to do so! Its not 'part of it', its literally all of it.

I understand your point, but if the intention is there and the thing is built, but not set up properly, would you consider the resulting presentation to be high-end if it does not sound that good? I could see that being argued either way. Good intentions, but bad result. The amp is still what it is. But with other components, where set up might matter more, the result will inform the impression of whether or not it is high-end or not.

 

[Argonaut]

Is this "Natural Sound Part Deux"?

I was just catching up and read pages of more Natural Sound and Lamm amp pairing debates that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic before giving up and skipping the last 10. Maybe the last 20 pages or so can be grafted onto Peter's thread? IMO we don't need one more of them.

Well … After close on 40 pages , the following quotation rather springs to mind :

“There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about.”
Oscar Wilde

 

[Atmasphere]

I understand tour point, but if the intention is there and the thing is built, but not set up properly, would you consider the resulting presentation to be high-end if it does not sound that good. I could see that being argued either way. Good intentions, but bad result. The amp is still what it is. But with other components, where set up might matter more, the result will inform the impression of whether or not it is high-end or not.

Intention is the key. Failure occurs- that's the nature of human existence.

 

[microstrip]

The link :

“That was specifically when millions of music lovers listened to acoustic (meaning, recordings made without the usage of electronics) recordings of great artists: F. Shalyapin, E.Karuzo, T. Ruffo, M. Battistini, N. Melba, A. Patti and other – and got true enjoyment. Gramophone records were making noise, their frequency range was narrow, and nevertheless this equipment that right now seems flawed truly engaged listeners into the music. Surprisingly, it allowed to feel all of the nuances of vocal artistry which are right now only available at a live concert! Such became only available because the signal path from musician-performer to the listener through the auditory path of recording-playback was the shortest throughout the entire recording history. Thank English lords for this!”

Curious that you post snippets, but never comment on their content and tell us your opinion on them. Do you really believe that modern equipment is not able to transmit the nuance and emotion as well as the Edison phonograph did?

 

[hopkins]

The recording does not change, but there can be many different presentations of the music on that recording. Yes, the system does not need to be high end to gain insight into the music or to even enjoy the music.

Absolutely. Here's a demonstration A terrible recording (recorded broadcast from 1941). Yet if you listen beyond the recording quality to the actual music, you may not mind. Sure, I'd like to hear this with a great recording (though it does not exist), but I don't think I would appreciate the actual performance any more. It's hard to explain...

(Had to trim the video for copyright reasons, the solo goes on for another 20 seconds)

But, some of those who pursue this hobby do think that the better the presentation, the more insight one can find, and the more enjoyment he may have. Presumably, at least some of us are here to pursue what we think is best in how we select and set up our systems to present the music in our collections to us in our rooms.

The better the system, the better you capture the unique nature of the recording. I'm not sure it really reveals that much about the performance itself, but why not... It may certainly make it more pleasant to listen to.

I see a lot of audiophiles looking for "emotions" (and I was like that before). I have no problems with that objective, and people expressing how deeply they were moved listening to their systems, but I find it of little value on audio forums. See above video...

 

[PeterA]

Is this "Natural Sound Part Deux"?

I was just catching up and read pages of more Natural Sound and Lamm amp pairing debates that have absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic before giving up and skipping the last 10. Maybe the last 20 pages or so can be grafted onto Peter's thread? IMO we don't need one more of them.

You well know that it takes two at least to have a discussion. And Tom will remind us all that only he and his team have moderating privileges. You can make a public statement about the live music discussion and whether or not you think that is on topic.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think the relation of high end and music listening is very complex.

Romy the Cat wrote :

“This is very interesting subject and my position about it very much not orthodox. Yes from certain perspective high end are there might be observed in context of evolved music listening experiences. In my view it is very surface point of view. I have plenty of people with whom we interact about very deep music listening experiences but over the years I never even ask them what playback they have, I do not even know if they practice audio in any sense. What is particular interesting that when I stress some specific points which might be observed only from a perspective of high-end audio they are completely with me or at least understand what I'm talking about.

I am not elso in a complete agreement with that position above that it has something to do with love of technology. It of course might be, but not necessaraly necessary.

I certainly not to pretend that my position would be some kind of universal and this is strongly my take on subject. I would point out to you my signature from the Friedrich. Before typewriter invention he was writing his work by the hands but when typewriter come to the existence he begin to type. In few years he observed by act of typing in the structured format, which typewriter demands, change the way how he began to think. There is his quote come from. I think it is very similar, at least to me, in regards of audio and music. I have an interest in certain musical expressionism and for me audio is an invention of that proverbial typewriter, in order my thoughts be developed in a format that I approve. It is sort of a reverse engineering of my own consciousness and rendered by the means of application of audio algorithms. “

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=3&postID=28101#28101

I don’t believe the relationship between being a music lover and being an audiophile are mutually assured or then mutually exclusive either… and it is possible to be both but there are costs and restraints involved in chasing each of these deeply together.

Originally way way many decades ago I didn’t differentiate or discriminate between these two pursuits. I assumed one built towards the other but it is possible that one can just as easily undermine the energy of the other.

So I don’t feel that listening to music and the high end is that complex though. Certainly doesn’t need to be quite so esoteric. These are two streams that sometimes flow together and sometimes drift apart.

 

[microstrip]

(...) The better the system, the better you capture the unique nature of the recording

Sound professionals usually listen loud, in the near field conditions, supressing most direct reflections - it is the best way to capture all the recording. IMO they do not intrinsically listen "better".

I'm not sure it really reveals that much about the performance itself, but why not... It may certainly make it more pleasant to listen to.

Surely. The usual benchmark for sound reproduction is listener enjoyment.
Better systems should deliver higher and more frequent enjoyment, statistically analysed.

I see a lot of audiophiles looking for "emotions" (and I was like that before). I have no problems with that objective, and people expressing how deeply they were moved listening to their systems, but I find it of little value on audio forums. See above video...

Do you know how we know how many serious audiophiles are in a concert hall? Easy, you count people with tears in their eyes...

Remember the old PRAT days, when foot taping was used as a test to sound systems? If audiophiles caught themselves doing it, it was a sign that the gear was delivering the musical goods. No foot taping, no deal!

IMO most of the time unfortunately "emotions" become an abused marketing tool for the high end.

 

[microstrip]

I don’t believe the relationship between being a music lover and being an audiophile are mutually assured or then mutually exclusive either… and it is possible to be both but there are costs and restraints involved in chasing each of these deeply together. (...)

Curious that we debate ad nauseum what is an audiophile, but forget about the different facets of being a music lover. I have seen many statistics in music magazines, strongly dependent on country and methods, but in a recent one its was considered that around 50% of people listened regularly to music and could be considered music lovers, but only 10-20% could be considered "true" music lovers - concert goers, record collectors, active musical participation.

 

[hopkins]

Curious that we debate ad nauseum what is an audiophile, but forget about the different facets of being a music lover. I have seen many statistics in music magazines, strongly dependent on country and methods, but in a recent one its was considered that around 50% of people listened regularly to music and could be considered music lovers, but only 10-20% could be considered "true" music lovers - concert goers, record collectors, active musical participation.

By the way, i did not mean to imply that anyone here is not a "music lover". Neither are you, but I just wanted to make that clear.

 

[Kingrex]

Here you go.

Jay saying average audio equipment playing at a level he never though possible. Blew his mind.
But, he is in a $50,000 room. And I assume the speaker is set up well. I assume it is the speaker manufacturer test room. Now circle back around to the equipment. They are testing the speakers with a DOUK audio amplifier. They put Sparko op amps in it. And use a $1500 tube preamp. But still. So what is high end audio. I think Ralph hits the nail on the head when he says its equipment and setup done with purpose.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Curious that we debate ad nauseum what is an audiophile, but forget about the different facets of being a music lover. I have seen many statistics in music magazines, strongly dependent on country and methods, but in a recent one its was considered that around 50% of people listened regularly to music and could be considered music lovers, but only 10-20% could be considered "true" music lovers - concert goers, record collectors, active musical participation.

Thankfully Micro perhaps music lovers don’t feel the overwhelming need to be validated through analysis and objective measurements and data… perhaps they just know it is desire and yearning and that it just is, and that it can be the most beautiful and unified language in all creation.

Quite probably why whales sing together rather than post in debates on the internet.

 

[Rexp]

The recording does not change, but there can be many different presentations of the music on that recording. Yes, the system does not need to be high end to gain insight into the music or to even enjoy the music. But, some of those who pursue this hobby do think that the better the presentation, the more insight one can find, and the more enjoyment he may have. Presumably, at least some of us are here to pursue what we think is best in how we select and set up our systems to present the music in our collections to us in our rooms.

A definition of a high-end system is that it DOES allow better insight into the music. That's the whole point. It does approach good live sound and provide the emotional impact that live music can deliver. Unlike you Peter, not everyone on this thread has experienced a well set up high-end system playing the best recordings.

 

[microstrip]

Thankfully Micro perhaps music lovers don’t feel the overwhelming need to be validated through analysis and objective measurements and data… perhaps they just know it is desire and yearning and that it just is, and that it can be the most beautiful and unified language in all creation.

Quite probably why whales sing together rather than post in debates on the internet.

I must say I can't understand your answer to my post and the reference to measures and objectivity.

Using the same logic I could answer that you want to post on the relation between audiophiles and music lovers based on data about whales singing together ...

BTW, this particular subject (relation between audiophiles and music lovers) was studied with some depth by audio scholars - I could imagine that internet readers in an high-end audio forum would find it interesting.