Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

[the sound of Tao]

Thanks for that, Graham. I do not know Levit. Does he have anything on LP that you could reccomend?

Short story long Tim…

… and as an aside to dear reader, by the end of this I promise to try and then bring this post back to capitulate to the original topic and relate what I’m going to talk about the identifying traits in musical performance as an example of what a high end system makes easier and for me a defining capacity for what I consider true characteristics in my definition of what is high-end gear.

So to recommendations for Levit Tim. As I am confident you get that there is no one pianist that is the best pianist in all works. There isn’t even a universally best pianist in a specific repertoire for me but I have a particular built expectation about what great Bach keyboard music can be and a big part of journey comes out of the last five decades in growing to understand the connection and the difference.

Tim with Igor Levit I find a kind of Bach piano keyboard player and Beethoven piano music that really does it for me. But obviously there are others who work using differing prisms who also do it for me. Great artistry I find is never that two dimensional.

So to determine if you’re going to resonate well with Levit’s approach I’m going suggest I can offer a comparison to other greats in this work.

The spirit and the differential gift for me in Igor Levit's take on Bach keyboard (and in Beethoven piano music for me as well) is the mesmerising way he has in his threading the singing line and letting it unfold in you in a kind of perfect arc… probably closest pianistic reference for me in the Goldberg variations (where Levit is especially recommendable) would be Murray Perahia. If you love Murray Perahia you’re very likely going to get Levit. I love the way Levit’s Bach is not extravagant…

If your ideal vision of the Bach’s Goldberg Variations more leant towards a more intense or heroic or audacious inner journey like you might find with Glenn Gould or Alexandre Tharaud (also among my favourites in the Goldberg) or if you like your Bach with another perspective I’d suggest you might still find Levit a very fine appreciation even if it might not be your ideal benchmark in this Bach for piano.

So with Levit in Bach there is more of a lit restraint and it’s a bit more an elevated journey of the spirit as opposed to being more weighted in a deep dive of the soul.

I’ve always connected to Bach for its more spiritual dimensions and Igor Levit is one of those pianists who transmit this to me completely.

The siren like singing tone unfolds and abducts and it lifts whereas some might also abduct but take you into the shadow lands instead. Better journey I think for Shostakovich which is a fitting place for the darkest journeys of the soul.

But there is light and shade in both Bach and Shostakovichs worlds, in truth many great works seem to tread the line between the two.

So if that realm of extraordinary grace and a singing elegance and fine restraint found in Murray Perahia’s Goldberg Variations is good for you then this spirit and grace is also what captures me about Igor Levit in Bach keyboard music.

I’d suggest Igor Levit’s Bach Goldberg Variations standalone recording is a great place to start.

With his relationship with Beethoven piano music there is a slightly different aspect of Levit that comes through. I love especially the Late Beethoven piano sonatas ( 28 through to 31) which are 2013 debut recordings from when he was 26… these are great places to discover if you are likely to especially resonate to this pianist.

For me the whole Levit Beethoven piano sonata cycle which is a later release and compilation is worthwhile but more if you are completely into his approach… in the earlier release you can just explore the late Beethoven sonatas on their own.

He fills his Beethoven with a bit more fire than his Bach, much closer to Gould here in terms of passion. His tempo is faster, he transforms to something closer to the way I imagine being inhabited more by aspects of Beethoven might shift his approach. The capacity to shape a perfect arc even if there are moments less conventional in his early and middle piano sonatas for me. I love the whole cycle but could just live with the Late Beethoven alone.

I feel Igor Levit is still on an upward trajectory and building his legacy, I’d be surprised if time doesn’t establish him among the list of (the many) pianist greats that we have been graced through the last century with. If you find you connect to these two recordings I’d suggest you might also further explore then his Mendelssohn and Liszt. Hope that isn’t a misdirect for you Tim, I know you understand exactly how personal our relationships with musicians are.

So back to the high end is it worth it topic… and how that relates to the discussion above.

For me I find the greatest attribute and test of any system as high end is that it makes the finest distinctions in music performances so easily and clearly discernible… not only in the theatre of providing sonic brilliance or in an extraordinary display just of sonic attributes (and although these things can be enmeshed) it is for me that a great high end system renders the fine distinctions and differences in music performances as every bit as revealed and easy to attain as it will in also revealing recording differences and so not be homogenising of either sound or performance… so not just hifi in sonically brilliant ways that may draw the attention to specific things but may then never connect through and render the great sounds then as great musical performance and transmit performance and artistry as utterly revealed for us in a truthful musically transparent way.

 

[Amir]

So back to the high end is it worth it topic… and how that relates to the discussion above.

For me I find the greatest attribute and test of any system as high end is that it makes the finest distinctions in music performances so easily and clearly discernible… not only in the theatre of providing sonic brilliance or in an extraordinary display just of sonic attributes (and although these things can be enmeshed) it is for me that a great high end system renders the fine distinctions and differences in music performances as every bit as revealed and easy to attain as it will in also revealing recording differences and so not be homogenising of either sound or performance… so not just hifi in sonically brilliant ways that may draw the attention to specific things but may then never connect through and render the great sounds then as great musical performance and transmit performance and artistry as utterly revealed for us in a truthful musically transparent way.

I think the relation of high end and music listening is very complex.

Romy the Cat wrote :

“This is very interesting subject and my position about it very much not orthodox. Yes from certain perspective high end are there might be observed in context of evolved music listening experiences. In my view it is very surface point of view. I have plenty of people with whom we interact about very deep music listening experiences but over the years I never even ask them what playback they have, I do not even know if they practice audio in any sense. What is particular interesting that when I stress some specific points which might be observed only from a perspective of high-end audio they are completely with me or at least understand what I'm talking about.

I am not elso in a complete agreement with that position above that it has something to do with love of technology. It of course might be, but not necessaraly necessary.

I certainly not to pretend that my position would be some kind of universal and this is strongly my take on subject. I would point out to you my signature from the Friedrich. Before typewriter invention he was writing his work by the hands but when typewriter come to the existence he begin to type. In few years he observed by act of typing in the structured format, which typewriter demands, change the way how he began to think. There is his quote come from. I think it is very similar, at least to me, in regards of audio and music. I have an interest in certain musical expressionism and for me audio is an invention of that proverbial typewriter, in order my thoughts be developed in a format that I approve. It is sort of a reverse engineering of my own consciousness and rendered by the means of application of audio algorithms. “

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=3&postID=28101#28101

 

[Amir]

About six listening level :

A few year back a Russian audiologist A. Likhnitsky’s published a book “Sound Quality: New approach to testing of the home audio equipment”. (P&K, 1998) The book has many positive moments and altogether it was a wonderful attempt to bring into our listening audio evaluations and into the general audio practice some light of so necessary there objective rational and sanity.

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=59#59

 

[tima]

I’d suggest Igor Levit’s Bach Goldberg Variations standalone recording is a great place to start.

Thanks for that. I'll see if it is on LP. I do like Gould.

 

[hopkins]

I think the relation of high end and music listening is very complex.

Romy the Cat wrote :

“This is very interesting subject and my position about it very much not orthodox. Yes from certain perspective high end are there might be observed in context of evolved music listening experiences. In my view it is very surface point of view. I have plenty of people with whom we interact about very deep music listening experiences but over the years I never even ask them what playback they have, I do not even know if they practice audio in any sense. What is particular interesting that when I stress some specific points which might be observed only from a perspective of high-end audio they are completely with me or at least understand what I'm talking about.

I am not elso in a complete agreement with that position above that it has something to do with love of technology. It of course might be, but not necessaraly necessary.

I certainly not to pretend that my position would be some kind of universal and this is strongly my take on subject. I would point out to you my signature from the Friedrich. Before typewriter invention he was writing his work by the hands but when typewriter come to the existence he begin to type. In few years he observed by act of typing in the structured format, which typewriter demands, change the way how he began to think. There is his quote come from. I think it is very similar, at least to me, in regards of audio and music. I have an interest in certain musical expressionism and for me audio is an invention of that proverbial typewriter, in order my thoughts be developed in a format that I approve. It is sort of a reverse engineering of my own consciousness and rendered by the means of application of audio algorithms. “

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=3&postID=28101#28101

Lol, the only complex aspect of high end is that most of the time it sucks. Here I am not talking about price...

Put on a pair of decent heaphones and listen to music with your phone and you'll hear what a track should sound like. Unfortunately headphones don't do soundstage and don't give you a sense of "presence" like speakers can. So we are back to listening with speakers, and here is where all our troubles start... Speaker distortions of all kind (drivers, cabinet, crossover...), crosstalk, room interaction...not to mention the complexity of driving speakers... 90% of the time you end up with a complete mess!

You would think that getting a balanced sound with a good level of resolution and dynamics would be easy, but apparently not.

 

[PeterA]

Lol, the only complex aspect of high end is that most of the time it sucks. Here I am not talking about price...

Put on a pair of decent heaphones and listen to music with your phone and you'll hear what a track should sound like. Unfortunately headphones don't do soundstage and don't give you a sense of "presence" like speakers can. So we are back to listening with speakers, and here is where all our troubles start... Speaker distortions of all kind (drivers, cabinet, crossover...), crosstalk, room interaction...not to mention the complexity of driving speakers... 90% of the time you end up with a complete mess!

You would think that getting a balanced sound with a good level of resolution and dynamics would be easy, but apparently not.

So we have gone from asking whether or not it is worth it to claiming “most of the time it sucks” and “90% of the time you end up with a complete mess.” You make it seem pretty dire.

 

[hopkins]

So we have gone from asking whether or not it is worth it to claiming “most of the time it sucks” and “90% of the time you end up with a complete mess.” You make it seem pretty dire.

I think everyone here will agree that things can take considerable time and effort (and sometimes cost) and none of the results sound the same. You can start off with something, realize you are at a dead end, and start all over again (like what you have done). Someone else may take the same road, but be going the opposite direction. At the end, we all make compromises.

It's hard to define what "high end" is, given the disparity of results.

Meanwhile, the music is always there, exactly the same. The reality is that you don't need a high end system to gain "insight" into the music. If you think so, you have not been listening!

The hobby is fun, however.

 

[ssfas]

Thanks for that. I'll see if it is on LP. I do like Gould.

Long story short, if I'd pick out one Levit recording now it would be Rzewski's "The People United Will Never Be Defeated!".

Bach Golderg's, I like Pavel Kolesnikov's recording because he approached it as dance music, which is the case for much Baroque music. His performance in the intended dance show in London was cancelled due to Covid-19 (he performed it elsewhere), but he did us a favour with a recital performance in May 2021. The acoustic of the Ragged School in East London gave it some extra zing.

 

[Elliot G.]

It's hard to define what "high end" is, given the disparity of results.

I don't agree. I think its easy to define what gear is high end generally. I am sure there are some products on the fringe and others that could be debated however in general this is quite easy. The results of the usage of said products in a system is a different subject.
Audio is systematic and the results are more than the group of products that someone chooses. I think most everyone here understands that if you take great items and stuff them in corners and against the wall in a mediocre to bad room the results are not good ( not high end) that does not mean the gear is not only the execution with the gear is lacking the proper way to use it.
Is the car bad because the driver stinks? A poorly played Steinway doesn't mean the piano stinks.
The inability to get good results is caused by many factors and the gear is only one variable in the equation.

 

[Kingrex]

Lol, the only complex aspect of high end is that most of the time it sucks. Here I am not talking about price...

Put on a pair of decent heaphones and listen to music with your phone and you'll hear what a track should sound like. Unfortunately headphones don't do soundstage and don't give you a sense of "presence" like speakers can. So we are back to listening with speakers, and here is where all our troubles start... Speaker distortions of all kind (drivers, cabinet, crossover...), crosstalk, room interaction...not to mention the complexity of driving speakers... 90% of the time you end up with a complete mess!

You would think that getting a balanced sound with a good level of resolution and dynamics would be easy, but apparently not.

They do with the new BACCH for headphones

 

[Kingrex]

I don't agree. I think its easy to define what gear is high end generally. I am sure there are some products on the fringe and others that could be debated however in general this is quite easy. The results of the usage of said products in a system is a different subject.
Audio is systematic and the results are more than the group of products that someone chooses. I think most everyone here understands that if you take great items and stuff them in corners and against the wall in a mediocre to bad room the results are not good ( not high end) that does not mean the gear is not only the execution with the gear is lacking the proper way to use it.
Is the car bad because the driver stinks? A poorly played Steinway doesn't mean the piano stinks.
The inability to get good results is caused by many factors and the gear is only one variable in the equation.

Its all based on your ego and your wallet. Of course rich people think there very expensive stereo is high end. They don't recognize the average Joe with a Schiit system feels his system is high end too. And it is high end compared to his friend with 3 kids who can only afford an Alexa.

Maybe a better term would be Snob End. Define it as, did you invest more in a stereo than the mean income of the average citizen of your country.

 

[Lee]

Its all based on your ego and your wallet. Of course rich people think there very expensive stereo is high end. They don't recognize the average Joe with a Schiit system feels his system is high end too. And it is high end compared to his friend with 3 kids who can only afford an Alexa.

Maybe a better term would be Snob End. Define it as, did you invest more in a stereo than the mean income of the average citizen of your country.

Is being expensive really a requirement for it to be high end audio?

Isn't a $2k Benchmark DAC or well designed $500 monitors also high end?

 

[bonzo75]

Maybe a better term would be Snob End.

Ok here are 4 categories:
1. Expensive but sounds sh@t - Snoboolish end
2. Expensive and sounds great - high end
3. Inexpensive and sounds great, perfect, or way above price - smart end
4. Inexpensive and does not sound good - low end

 

[JiminGa]

Ok here are 4 categories:
1. Expensive but sounds sh@t - Snoboolish end
2. Expensive and sounds great - high end
3. Inexpensive and sounds great - smart end
4. Inexpensive and does not sound good - low end

Perfect

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Is being expensive really a requirement for it to be high end audio?

Isn't a $2k Benchmark DAC or well designed $500 monitors also high end?

high end is a state of mind. those pieces thrown into a room haphazardly just to have some background music i do not see as high end. OTOH if the set up and room are put together thoughtfully and optimized for the best sound and efforts are made to do what is doable with the assets on hand with an eye toward being on the lookout for better sound and musical realism, then that approach and expectation are high end even though the gear (more the speakers than the dac) might be borderline mid fi.

i owned some quite fine Dynaudio small bookshelf speakers. i can't recall the model, but from memory they were under $1000 retail when i bought them to use in my family room in a bookshelf above a TV monitor back 15 years or so ago. they were quite remarkable and certainly high end capable properly set up. i could be happy with those. but i did not use them in a high end context.

 

[microstrip]

About six listening level :

A few year back a Russian audiologist A. Likhnitsky’s published a book “Sound Quality: New approach to testing of the home audio equipment”. (P&K, 1998) The book has many positive moments and altogether it was a wonderful attempt to bring into our listening audio evaluations and into the general audio practice some light of so necessary there objective rational and sanity.

http://goodsoundclub.com/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=1&postID=59#59

As far as I could find a never translated book from a russian audio influencer and tonearm designer - see some of his opinions at

https://sw1xad.co.uk/technology/high-end-is-dead-long-live-the-high-end/

One more example of the usual negative and retrograde speech that we can easily find in the net. The imminent end of high-end audio has been predicted by some people for more than thirty years ...

BTW, did you read the book?

 

[Elliot G.]

Is being expensive really a requirement for it to be high end audio?

Isn't a $2k Benchmark DAC or well designed $500 monitors also high end?

I personally don't think price has anything to do with it. The market is full of things like ear buds and Sonos which are not high end.
High end is about better performance and more but without it being better performing than average is not my definition.
When the term was coined in audio it was about differentiating some products from the average .
The anger and disgust about price is not IMO the main points. Are there abusers? Yes I think their are. I see a lot of products that IMO do not rise to levels that make them worthwhile. That is of course my thought not everyone's.
I do find it hard to comprehend all of these over 100k products and more and more each year.
There are more and more of this on the second hand market most because IM it should never been on the first hand market to begin with.
Audio is NOT about the price. If you are buying because of price and ego then I wish you the best but you most likely won't find it.
Audio should be about the ability to play music in your home and play it well .
I do find it sad that the dissemination of information and instruction on how to do this is virtually nonexistent and IMO this is why there is so much angst in the marketplace.
My analogy
If cars were sold like audio where you went online or into a store and there were very few or none finished working high performance examples but instead there piles of different parts lying around with price tags and customers were to just pick what they wanted based on who knows what there would be a lot of broken down cars all over town.

 

[Amir]

As far as I could find a never translated book from a russian audio influencer and tonearm designer - see some of his opinions at

https://sw1xad.co.uk/technology/high-end-is-dead-long-live-the-high-end/

One more example of the usual negative and retrograde speech that we can easily find in the net. The imminent end of high-end audio has been predicted by some people for more than thirty years ...

BTW, did you read the book?

Audio Note UK owner Peter Qvortrup decided to translate this book to English but he did not yet.

I asked Peter to inform me when he translated but it seems he is not serious about it

 

[Amir]

As far as I could find a never translated book from a russian audio influencer and tonearm designer - see some of his opinions at

https://sw1xad.co.uk/technology/high-end-is-dead-long-live-the-high-end/

The link :

“That was specifically when millions of music lovers listened to acoustic (meaning, recordings made without the usage of electronics) recordings of great artists: F. Shalyapin, E.Karuzo, T. Ruffo, M. Battistini, N. Melba, A. Patti and other – and got true enjoyment. Gramophone records were making noise, their frequency range was narrow, and nevertheless this equipment that right now seems flawed truly engaged listeners into the music. Surprisingly, it allowed to feel all of the nuances of vocal artistry which are right now only available at a live concert! Such became only available because the signal path from musician-performer to the listener through the auditory path of recording-playback was the shortest throughout the entire recording history. Thank English lords for this!”

 

[Atmasphere]

high end is a state of mind.

Which is why I say intention is paramount.