Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[GaryProtein]

Please do not take personal also, but my feeling is that if when you changed those two pieces of equipment you only got a a 10% decrease in performance this is a very clear indication of an improperly matched and non optimized existing system. . . .

I think you missed the point of MarinJim's initial post.

 

[taters]

I've mentioned this before:

IF I work hard at doing my best and then give it away...you know what?

Nobody shows up.

The ones who DO show up tend to be the type who whine and want an even better price, even though you are already killing yourself in that given product at the given price.

Pardon me, I'm a bit bitter about the idea of there being a reward for those who do their best.

For I've never seen it, after many a try.

It's that line, 'no good deed goes unpunished'.

So instead, It is just normal pricing for the products in their respective quality class.

For example, twice now, I've heard back from differing retailers (depending on the business I'm involved in that is being spoken of) that some established companies have delivered direct threats to their retailers, if those retailers should try and sell or stock the given product that I'm involved in. The bargain vs quality is perceived to be enough of a threat (market disruptor) to the given market model and established companies ...that they threaten their own retailers.

The retailers, many time, also agree. They want to sell expensive established items, within that given market category... that have good solid return....due to high margins and due to market perception. They do not want to rock the boat of their own customers and go from a "pull market" (customer comes into buy and spend) to a "push market" (customer has to be convinced to buy). It is tough enough to make a living in this environment.

Thus, human perception and human mental position, and motion through life... is screwing over the very core of what you are proposing with this thread. Lord knows I've tried and all I ever managed to get out of it is starvation, market rejection, and marginalization.

You are talking about fighting the city hall that is built in the core of the vast majority of people, as they exist and integrate in this market and world of audio. It matters not that it will run off a cliff, it will regardless of what anyone says or does. Like a heart on a decapitated body, the last beats will be the same as the prior beats....excepting that those last ones will be the most desperate and strongest.

The only way it is ever going happen, is that you are going to have to hold the market down, as it exists today ---and punch a knife through it's heart. Good luck with that.

Human nature.

You are speaking in very general terms. Could you please give me some actual examples of what you are talking about. I have no Idea of what kind of business you have or who you are dealing with.

 

[opus111]

IF I work hard at doing my best and then give it away...you know what?

http://www.amazon.com/Yes-Scientifically-Proven-Ways-Persuasive/dp/1416576142/

Buy it. Study it. Apply it. You'll find that it says (with evidence, mind) that giving stuff away doesn't work.

Quit feeling bitter and start getting better.

 

[KBK]

I'm still waiting for a hi end audio manufacturer to simply state that the ONLY purpose of the product is to show that you have more money than anybody else, and you can afford it but they can't, like gold plated bathroom fixtures and diamond encrusted watches. That's unlikely, so of course, you have to have the choruses of pundits convulsing in orgasmic ecstasies over the next high priced doo dadd.

On the other hand, some things are just going to cost money if you want what they provide. Some blingsters, of course, claim as well to have perfect auditory taste, but that is expected, and it muddies the waters for those with a genuine interest in exploring sound.

I noticed when I bought fancy cars that everybody was initially impressed, but after about a month, I was just the same old turkey in a fancy car.

It is not actually that bad, in my experience. But some aspects of it happen, the odd time. Thankfully, they don't last long.

I do love a good car, though. as I have the audacity to test it's limits and I won't buy it unless those elevated limits - are actually there.

 

[A.wayne]

http://www.amazon.com/Yes-Scientifically-Proven-Ways-Persuasive/dp/1416576142/

Buy it. Study it. Apply it. You'll find that it says (with evidence, mind) that giving stuff away doesn't work.

Quit feeling bitter and start getting better.

So good its discounted ......

 

[Bill Hart]

I'm still waiting for a hi end audio manufacturer to simply state that the ONLY purpose of the product is to show that you have more money than anybody else, and you can afford it but they can't, like gold plated bathroom fixtures and diamond encrusted watches. That's unlikely, so of course, you have to have the choruses of pundits convulsing in orgasmic ecstasies over the next high priced doo dadd.

On the other hand, some things are just going to cost money if you want what they provide. Some blingsters, of course, claim as well to have perfect auditory taste, but that is expected, and it muddies the waters for those with a genuine interest in exploring sound.

I noticed when I bought fancy cars that everybody was initially impressed, but after about a month, I was just the same old turkey in a fancy car.

Isn't there a 'Beltway' Effect among manufacturers, who are competing within the same limited universe for customers and truly believe that what they are offering is competitive in this rarified market? VAC, for example, was not the first company to break the $50k dollar barrier for a phono stage (and I'm not dissing him, it's just the example that came to mind). And it's more than just drinking the Kool-Aid or keeping up with the Jones as far as the consumer is concerned. There is a neurotic quality to high-end hi-fi that you don't see in the car or bling watch world, e.g. you already know you are driving last year's Ferrari, so you know where you fit in that 'hierarchy' (I'm hope you appreciate that I'm being a little sarcastic here). It may only do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds as opposed to 3.2 seconds (like that matters anyway). But audio nervosa is more insidious. Are you not fully hearing that cymbal splash the way it should be presented? Will those 40k dollar wires really bring you nirvana?
I just did two substantial upgrades to my system in the last year, and neither was driven from upgrade-itis - the difference was worth the money and I'm happy. But, I guess my point is that it goes beyond just status symbols although there is probably some element of that-- as you said Carl- only certain people will care anyway- most folks may be taken with the look of my horns or the turntable, but have no clue about the electronics unless they are already well within the fold. There's a quest for the best performance that is not measurable and that's where the madness gets fed.

 

[opus111]

So good its discounted ......

As opposed to given away free, yep

 

[KBK]

http://www.amazon.com/Yes-Scientifically-Proven-Ways-Persuasive/dp/1416576142/

Buy it. Study it. Apply it. You'll find that it says (with evidence, mind) that giving stuff away doesn't work.

Quit feeling bitter and start getting better.

I'm well past bitter, no problem there. I've been in the high end world for quite some time. I just did not bother to enter it 'proper' until I felt I had something serious to publish. Something, in this case, with cutting edge physics. Something completely different. And arguably superior, even in the realm of a discussion of the theoretical and discovered/established physics, right at the cutting edge.

To me, one does not establish a viable market position by selling the same fish in the same square, with the same buyers and the same atmosphere. Give them something completely different. Even if it does take the market time to figure that out. This is how I end up in these sort of situations. But, again, I'm not interested in hawking some version of identical wares, perceived as just 'a new participant'. That is a quicker way, potentially, as it is an 'accepted' methodology, that the market system understands.

I may whine, but I remain in the realm of doing it 'the hard way', as it means something to me...

I finished, essentially turning the video screen industry on it's head, in some important ways..and that change is still in the process of rolling out.

As Clint said in 'Unforgiven', "And now I'm here to kill you, Little Bill..."

(I hasten to add that I have friends in the given industries... and we think well of one another. But some other people simply have no idea how to play on a level field.)

 

[A.wayne]

Yeah , thats it, something innovative , no one has failed when they did , it worked well for Tesla ..

 

[opus111]

I'm well past bitter, no problem there.

Now I'm confused because you said in the post I replied to 'Pardon me, I'm a bit bitter...'.

I've been in the high end world for quite some time. I just did not bother to enter it 'proper' until I felt I had something serious to publish. Something, in this case, with cutting edge physics. Something completely different. And arguably superior, even in the realm of a discussion of the theoretical and discovered/established physics, right at the cutting edge.

Well if it is truly cutting edge, I've not so far seen it as such so you're failing in your communication (aka marketing). From my pov its still looking to be just 'different for the sake of being different' rather than cutting edge.

 

[opus111]

Yeah , thats it, something innovative , no one has failed when they did , it worked well for Tesla ..

You mean the motor company not the man here?

 

[A.wayne]

Sarcasm mate ...

The man of course , the car Co have the feds backing them , a position Tesla could only dream of .

..

 

[KBK]

Now I'm confused because you said in the post I replied to 'Pardon me, I'm a bit bitter...'.



Well if it is truly cutting edge, I've not so far seen it as such so you're failing in your communication (aka marketing). From my pov its still looking to be just 'different for the sake of being different' rather than cutting edge.

I'm not here to market, it's not part of playing fair here, on the board.

Just consider that the physics and thus the behavior of a true molecular conductive fluid is completely different than that of a solid. That all your complex measurements and theory associated are made, literally designed, from the ground up... from lattice structure solids, and how they integrate with fields. That lead and lag are not inherently stable, but a fundamental integrational aspect due to lattice structure.

That complex gaseous, plasma, ion or MHD function, is fundamentally different than that of the 'electrical' behavior/integration of a 'lattice structure solid'.

When that begins...then we can possibly get into giant circular arguments about what all that means, that may go on for years, depending upon the persons involved....so I urge folks to figure that part out for themselves.

It is important to understand that I'm in this for making better tunes, not the money. If it was the money, I'd be spending my time nowhere near here and romancing the $XXB technology companies that are very interested in it.

And if it turns into a slug fest on the fundamental physics front, on this board, I'll probably go silent, as I don't need it, no one does.

 

[opus111]

I'm not here to market, it's not part of playing fair here, on the board.

I suggest your view of marketing is too narrow. Perhaps you think marketing means pushing stuff? In my book, its all about pull - including pulling (teasing) out of the market what products with what features they wanna see. Sometimes the guys just do not know what they want until you show it to them.

Just consider that the physics and thus the behavior of a true molecular conductive fluid is completely different than that of a solid. That all your complex measurements and theory associated are made, literally designed, from the ground up... from lattice structure solids, and how they integrate with fields.

I have a modicum of physics background from my EE degree. But I don't find this at all convincing - do you have a '2min elevator pitch' which somebody without a PhD in solid state physics can grasp quickly and simply? If you haven't then that's your marketing problem right there

 

[Soundproof]

People who are willing to buy this:

Let Odin feed your system and get ready for improved noise floor and resolution, increased transparency, dynamic range and freedom from grain, more believable sound staging, more natural life and musical dynamics, a breathtaking range of tonal colours. Suddenly the music will step away from the system producing it, taking on a life of its own, becoming a real performance – all because the power on which your system depends is cleaner and arriving quicker.

Will buy anything - and that drives a very curious segment of the high-end market. Me, I'm not buying it, so I don't really care or worry much about it.

 

[puroagave]

There is a neurotic quality to high-end hi-fi that you don't see in the car or bling watch world, e.g. you already know you are driving last year's Ferrari, so you know where you fit in that 'hierarchy' (I'm hope you appreciate that I'm being a little sarcastic here). It may only do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds as opposed to 3.2 seconds (like that matters anyway). But audio nervosa is more insidious. Are you not fully hearing that cymbal splash the way it should be presented? Will those 40k dollar wires really bring you nirvana?

oenophiles and high-end wine collectors remind me most of audiophiles. they have Robert Parker we have HP. separating the best from the worst is entirely subjective and you have a point system, they closer you get to 100 in the wine world, the more badly someone will want it and pay extrodinary prices for it. me thinks one has to look at the individual that wants to climb everest at any cost and seek some kind of perfection (metaphorically speaking) that they're not getting elsewhere in their life. or, maybe i got it all wrong and im just jealous

 

[KBK]

I suggest your view of marketing is too narrow. Perhaps you think marketing means pushing stuff? In my book, its all about pull - including pulling (teasing) out of the market what products with what features they wanna see. Sometimes the guys just do not know what they want until you show it to them.

I have a modicum of physics background from my EE degree. But I don't find this at all convincing - do you have a '2min elevator pitch' which somebody without a PhD in solid state physics can grasp quickly and simply? If you haven't then that's your marketing problem right there

The PHD's in theoretical physics are barely getting it. Sometimes.

The technology firms who measure the cable in the laboratory, they get it right away, as the anomalous numbers are right there in front of them.

That kind of a problem. The wall of all that is currently established... that has come before.

I was not kidding when I said years of over and over.

But I've seen elderly open minded men (audiophiles) jump up and down with excitement when they hear of it, they want it so bad. One of the earlier ones was the head of the calibrations lab for TI.

 

[Bill Hart]

oenophiles and high-end wine collectors remind me most of audiophiles. they have Robert Parker we have HP. separating the best from the worst is entirely subjective and you have a point system, they closer you get to 100 in the wine world, the more badly someone will want it and pay extrodinary prices for it. me thinks one has to look at the individual that wants to climb everest at any cost and seek some kind of perfection (metaphorically speaking) that they're not getting elsewhere in their life. or, maybe i got it all wrong and im just jealous

Ironically, the high priced grape juice probably holds value better than hi-fi gear. I don't think you are jealous- there's obviously a cost/value ratio. I respect somebody that knows enough to find a brilliant wine at a good price on the list rather than just ordering by label/vintage/price. And a good sommelier is somebody to be treasured- having not had a drink in 27 years, my discussions with wine drinkers are purely academic at this point. Not a bad analogy, though.

 

[opus111]

The technology firms who measure the cable in the laboratory, they get it right away, as the anomalous numbers are right there in front of them.

That might be an avenue that works. Where have you posted up their measurements and the 'anomalous' numbers with an explanation for what they mean?

 

[KBK]

That might be an avenue that works. Where have you posted up their measurements and the 'anomalous' numbers with an explanation for what they mean?

That is, in some ways... a giant box of snakes and worms. So, it is not done.