Lampizator DAC measurements.

[Blizzard]

Plus another who owns it with the MSB stack, on audioshark some who owned it with Berkeley Reference, and most have shifted from SS. There are hardly any tube dacs/tube CDPs to shift from anyway

I have no problem with tube sound. But I do think it would be better if multiple DAC's weren't required to get different sound profiles. Wouldn't it be better to have 1 DAC, that could be altered with a push of a button to exactly emulate the sound of 100 DAC's?

 

[Blizzard]

Mods, people are allowed to tarnish products based on speculation?

I'm not tarnishing the product. I know why people like the sound. And I'm not at all saying the sound is bad. I'm just talking about measured performance of transistors vs tubes. There surely must be a reason Lukasz doesn't publish measurement specs. I think he's sold enough products to afford an AP measurement system.

 

[bonzo75]

I'm not tarnishing the product. I know why people like the sound. And I'm not at all saying the sound is bad. I'm just talking about measured performance of transistors vs tubes.

No you don't know why people like the sound. You are speculating it is because of coloration, and said it would be sound better (i.,e. it is not sounding good enough now) if an SS stage was added. If you have never heard what WE 101ds or 300bs or VT52s etc can do, the details, slam, and speed they give, how they provide tone to various instruments, you should not be commenting as you are just speculating.

 

[Blizzard]

No you don't know why people like the sound. You are speculating it is because of coloration, and said it would be sound better (i.,e. it is not sounding good enough now) if an SS stage was added. If you have never heard what WE 101ds or 300bs or VT52s etc can do, the details, slam, and speed they give, how they provide tone to various instruments, you should not be commenting as you are just speculating.

I never said it would sound better with a transistor output stage. I said it would preform better. Sound is an subjective thing. Performance can be measured.

 

[bonzo75]

I never said it would sound better with a transistor output stage. I said it would preform better. Sound is an subjective thing. Performance can be measured.

No, performance can be heard. You can hear more detail, more speed, more slam, better tone, more realism. Not to mention you are saying if the dac design was changed to another SS dac's design, it would perform better.

You are free to say that if the output stage was changed to SS, it might measure better. That is not the same as performance. hope you find this educational

Cheers

 

[Blizzard]

No, performance can be heard. You can hear more detail, more speed, more slam, better tone, more realism. Not to mention you are saying if the dac design was changed to another SS dac's design, it would perform better.

You are free to say that if the output stage was changed to SS, it might measure better. That is not the same as performance. hope you find this educational

Cheers

How would you know the GG would have all of those superior attributes over a transistor based output stage without hearing both? You are dismissing the importance of how well he implemented all the other circuity in the DAC. Not to mention the super high end boutique parts used.

What you need to understand is, what the tubes do to make the sound like they do, can be measured. I'm not going to say that all the measurements can be completely understood, and put into a spec people can understand, but the sound can be measured. When this sound is measured with extremely high resolution gear, it can be processed through a powerful DSP engine and then reproduced through gear that's designed to be dead pan accurate using transistors. Modern technology is a wonderful thing.

 

[bonzo75]

How would you know the GG would have all of those superior attributes over a transistor based output stage without hearing both? You are dismissing the importance of how well he implemented all the other circuity in the DAC. Not to mention the super high end boutique parts used.

What you need to understand is, what the tubes do to make the sound like they do, can be measured. I'm not going to say that all the measurements can be completely understood, and put into a spec people can understand, but the sound can be measured. When this sound is measured with extremely high resolution gear, it can be processed through a powerful DSP engine and then reproduced through gear that's designed to be dead pan accurate using transistors. Modern technology is a wonderful thing.

So, you are saying transistors are a must

 

[Blizzard]

So, you are saying transistors are a must

No I'm not. But I am saying the sound people love about tubes can be emulated through solid state gear. And the beauty is you can change the profile on demand. When the signature is built right into the hardware, your stuck with it for life. Change is good. Some tracks sound better through different gear. This is why people have multiple DAC's and systems.

 

[bonzo75]

No I'm not. But I am saying the sound people love about tubes can be emulated through solid state gear. And the beauty is you can change the profile on demand. When the signature is built right into the hardware, your stuck with it for life. Change is good. Some tracks sound better through different gear. This is why people have multiple DAC's and systems.

hi no, like I said, people use it with Acourate and Trinnov, and you can change the target curve. And you can have different valves

 

[Argonaut]

I really must dig out my edition of Gulliver's Travels

 

[Blizzard]

hi no, like I said, people use it with Acourate and Trinnov, and you can change the target curve. And you can have different valves

I'm not talking about using Acourate and Trinnov. That's not the intended purpose of that software.

 

[KeithR]

No I'm not. But I am saying the sound people love about tubes can be emulated through solid state gear. And the beauty is you can change the profile on demand. When the signature is built right into the hardware, your stuck with it for life. Change is good. Some tracks sound better through different gear. This is why people have multiple DAC's and systems.

I've never heard a SS amp sound like a tube amp, period. And yes, I've had the First Watt single ended stuff in my system....Rowland, Pass, Luxman, Valvet, McIntosh, DarTZeel, Ayre as well. So I very much doubt that DSP can get you there. Tube sound isn't a FR graph.

 

[Blizzard]

I've never heard a SS amp sound like a tube amp, period. And yes, I've had the First Watt single ended stuff in my system....Rowland, Pass, Luxman, Valvet, McIntosh, DarTZeel, Ayre as well. So I very much doubt that DSP can get you there. Tube sound isn't a FR graph.

Yes I know you haven't because this is new technology.

 

[Bruce B]

With extremely transparent SS gear, the "Euphonic" or "Euphoric" sound tube aficionados love can be emulated with 64 bit floating point DSP. You can even change to different tubes with a push of a button. But best of all, you still get to enjoy the dynamics of SS gear. Not to mention reliability, and efficiency.

Not it can't. There has never been a plug-in emulation of a tape machine, reverb, EQ/Comp or (insert gear) that has equaled the hardware component. Otherwise, studios would do everything in the box!

 

[MadFloyd]

Interesting thread. I think Blizzard raises an interesting concept. I too can't help but feel a lot of people like the Lampi because it employs tubes which add pleasant harmonics (which I would categorize as colorations). What I'm not sure about is whether DSP can emulate those harmonics. DSP can help in thickening up the midrange, giving it some body that tubes often supply, but harmonics are a different story.

 

[Bruce B]

I believe the all time worst measuring dac record is currently held by a valve dac, not sure if it is directly heated.
Keith.

Look at how bad the SS Playback Designs measured.

 

[MadFloyd]

Not it can't. There has never been a plug-in emulation of a tape machine, reverb, EQ/Comp or (insert gear) that has equaled the hardware component. Otherwise, studios would do everything in the box!

Bruce, a lot of people DO process tape emulations 'in the box' (i.e. entirely in the digital audio workstation). Companies like Universal Audio and Steve Slate etc all make plugins that do a good job of emulating outboard gear and in the last few years have really zeroed in on analog tape and EQ products that make their way into modern releases.

 

[Bruce B]

Bruce, a lot of people DO process tape emulations 'in the box' (i.e. entirely in the digital audio workstation). Companies like Universal Audio and Steve Slate etc all make plugins that do a good job of emulating outboard gear and in the last few years have really zeroed in on analog tape and EQ products that make their way into modern releases.

I have tried DOZENS of tape emulations. I even have a HARDWARE (Rupert Neve) tape emulation... but NONE of them sound (or measure) like the real thing. The closest I've heard is a hardware unit AnaMod ATS-1. You can't sharp shoot me on this one! Like you said, they do a "good" job, but it's no where near like the real thing.

 

[edorr]

With extremely transparent SS gear, the "Euphonic" or "Euphoric" sound tube aficionados love can be emulated with 64 bit floating point DSP. You can even change to different tubes with a push of a button. But best of all, you still get to enjoy the dynamics of SS gear. Not to mention reliability, and efficiency.

I have not heard as much gear as Bruce of course, but based on my limited experience with Trinnov and Dirac and tube and SS gear this is categorically impossible. Tubes have a distinct sonic signature that cannot be emulated with DSP. In fact, I have always been surprised how somehow even wiht the use of DSP, hardware retains its own character.

 

[Bruce B]

I have not heard as much gear as Bruce of course, but based on my limited experience with Trinnov and Dirac and tube and SS gear this is categorically impossible. Tubes have a distinct sonic signature that cannot be emulated with DSP. In fact, I have always been surprised how somehow even wiht the use of DSP, hardware retains its own character.

That's correct... just ask anyone that has tried a plugin emulation of Manley Massive Passive or Vari-mu (or any other tubed unit)