Linn LP 12... anyone else still like this design?

[karma]

HI All,
Since this thread has turned into a Linn love fest I have a question for you Linn lovers. I'm not one, BTW, but that's only because I think there are better alternatives. I still admire Linn a lot.

Ivor made Linn famous because of his discovery and demonstration of the problem of reflected energy in the vinyl. One of Linn's claims to fame is the ability to absorb this energy so as to not smear transients. This idea revolutionized turntable design. I don't believe there is a post Linn turntable that does not have some method to deal with reflected energy. I think some do it better than Linn such as Sota with their vacuum hold and vinyl compound platter. But, that does not diminish the importance of Ivor's discovery.

So, what is your view on this? I have not seen it mentioned in this thread which really surprises me. If Linn has any claim to fame it is due to this single idea. Tell me what you think, please.

Thanks, Sparky

 

[mep]

How did the LP-12 absorb energy from vinyl? The felt mat? I never saw the LP-12 as anything more than a gussied up AR turntable with a much more unstable suspension.

 

[puroagave]

Sparky, imo there is nothing unique to the LP12 that diminishes refelctive energy, unless you call a felt mat an advancement and Ivor didnt invent that! its well known the LP12 borrowed much from the Ariston rd11 and thorens 150. Ivor is known as a master charlatan and debater, i would take his sales pitch with a grain off salt. In case i sound like the class cynic ive owned two LP12s over the years, the highest spec was 80xxx ser number with Ekos arm and lingo MkI. I have a soft spot for the LP12 but as you say, there are better alternatives.

 

[karma]

Sparky, imo there is nothing unique to the LP12 that diminishes refelctive energy, unless you call a felt mat an advancement and Ivor didnt invent that! its well known the LP12 borrowed much from the Ariston rd11 and thorens 150. Ivor is known as a master charlatan and debater, i would take his sales pitch with a grain off salt. In case i sound like the class cynic ive owned two LP12s over the years, the highest spec was 80xxx ser number with Ekos arm and lingo MkI. I have a soft spot for the LP12 but as you say, there are better alternatives.

HI puro,
Well, I'm certainly not a Linn expert. However, Ivor's work in this area was more than hype. It was significant. The effect was demonstrated and widely reported in the hi fi press. Not only reported but believed.

His claim was that turntables had sonic signatures - a sound of their own. This was at a time when turntables had a specific set of classic performance issues to solve. They did NOT include a sonic signature. This was a brand new idea. After Ivor made his claim to a disbelieving and cynical hi fi world, which had cut their teeth on the traditional turntable performance standards, he then proceeded to demonstrate the issue with instrumentation and oscilloscopes. It was very impressive and left no room for doubt. There was no hype. The effect was real.

I have always thought that this was the birth of the Linn legend. Am I wrong? I'm sure that some of the older Linnies will remember.

Sparky

 

[DonH50]

My understanding is the "magic" was in the bearings and suspension more so than any other aspect of the Linn TT. At least IIRC from when Ivor was involved with a TT vs. CD shoot-out in the early 1980's. I remember more about the people involved (e.g., Bob Johnson, Mark Levinson -- he played guitar and had a recording, kinda' neat) than the gear... Back then, the Linn bearings were legendary both for being very quiet and very fragile.

 

[karma]

HI Don,
The incident I am referring to, I believe, happened in around 1972. CD's were but a glimmer in Phillips eye if even that. BTW, the first CD players came out in 1984.

Sparky

 

[DonH50]

Before my time, or at least before I was deeply involved in audio stuff. CDs were introduced in Asia/Europe in 1981 or 1982, I think, and here (USA) in 1983; not sure when the first players hit the market but you are probably right about 1984. First articles I read from Sony and Phillips were in the late 70's early 80's IIRC but I am sure stuff was going on before then. Huge format battle at the time... Anyway, S/P sponsored a series of listening trials across the country, maybe a half-dozen or so, and some major folk/companies were invited. This was before market release of any players. It was an exciting time even though those early CDs had substantial issues (some caused by the ADCs, the end of the chain rarely discussed by audiophiles; I think 3M made one of the early ADCs, a name not seen in today's signal chain AFAIK).

Anyway, it was an opportunity to show off (and for me to hear) some top-notch gear, and to meet some of the legends behind the companies. Linn was one, and I recall the bearing and suspension comments. I wish I remembered more! I was a young kid in way over my head due to the good graces of some local audiophiles and because I worked (as a tech) at several local shops.

 

[karma]

HI Don,
Yes , remember the development of digital audio. There were some pretty funky designs. The Phillips/Sony scheme was far superior to the rest.

I was actually at the 1983 CES where Sony introduced the CD system formally to the US. I'll never forget it. It was in a fairly large conference room at the convention center with about 200 people crammed in. Sony had one of their systems set up and after a short introduction and show and tell, the presenter placed a CD in the machine. And then there was sound!! It was kind of exciting. I knew I was attending a history making event. Unfortunately, there were so many people that I couldn't say anything about the sonic quality. But it was obvious it worked. There were exactly two CD's for demo! That's it. Not many months later, Sony started marketing their first CD player, the CDP-1.

Me being a digital design engineer and an audiophile, I followed the digital developments closely. I was certain that digital audio would answer all problems. About 2 months after Sony came out with the CDP-1, Yamaha introduced their first. I bought one immediately along with every CD the store had; 5 little disks. It took about three weeks for my denial to wear out and admit that it sounded like crap! I sold it right away. It took another 10 years for me to hear the first CD player that I thought sounded reasonably good. It was the $2000 Sony CDP-X7ES. I bought it. I still have it in my system but its only used as a deck for my outboard tube DAC. It actually still sounds pretty good. The engineering of the machine is very impressive.

Sparky

 

[puroagave]

HI puro,
Well, I'm certainly not a Linn expert. However, Ivor's work in this area was more than hype. It was significant. The effect was demonstrated and widely reported in the hi fi press. Not only reported but believed.

His claim was that turntables had sonic signatures - a sound of their own. This was at a time when turntables had a specific set of classic performance issues to solve. They did NOT include a sonic signature. This was a brand new idea. After Ivor made his claim to a disbelieving and cynical hi fi world, which had cut their teeth on the traditional turntable performance standards, he then proceeded to demonstrate the issue with instrumentation and oscilloscopes. It was very impressive and left no room for doubt. There was no hype. The effect was real.

I have always thought that this was the birth of the Linn legend. Am I wrong? I'm sure that some of the older Linnies will remember.

Sparky

and we've come full circle now with the resurgence of idler drive and direct drive TTs - two implementations that were pooh poohed in the '80s when Linn and SOTA were at the height of their powers. ask the cognoscenti today and they're gushing over 40-yr old Garrads, thorens 124s, lencos and Technics SP10s. the more time that goes by the less i understand this hobby :b

 

[mep]

As someone who has owned a SOTA Star Sapphire and a VPI TNT among many others, I can tell you the SP-10 MKII is the real deal. I’m not interested into going back in time to the Garrard 301/401 and the Thorens TD-124 though. The next thing you know you will be nostalgic for 78s that you never owned or played and proclaim them to be the greatest.

 

[DonH50]

Sparky,

We have something in common, we were both at that CES! What a madhouse... My first CD player was the Sony model below the X7ES, don't recall the model. Up 'til then I just listened and borrowed from the stores I worked. Accuphase and Meridian also had good units, at least IMO, but my hearing probably wasn't/isn't as refined as yours. I waited a long time for the sound to catch up to the specs and the hype. By the time I broke down and bought a player, my life was heading down the family path and audio took a back seat for a decade-plus. I am an analog guy but was designing high-speed data converters so I followed with some interest.

Cheers,
Don

 

[Mike]

Hi from the "Land of Linn" (very wintery Scotland!). Ivor T certainly had a way with sales that no one had attempted the same way previously, which undoubtedly went a long way to achieving the number of decks sold throughout the world, as well as the loyalty of Linn-ites for years to come.

I bought mine in the mid 80s and retain it to this day. However, as an engineer and enthusiatic 'dabbler' in most things hi-fi, I overcame the secret mystique that seemed to accompany every deck - as far as dealers were concerned. True, there's a degree of patience and infinite accuracy required to get the LP12 singing properly, but magic it certainly ain't. Mine is now fitted with a composite laminated subchassis and a dc motor, which both contribute to a more believable sound stage and performance than previously experienced. I fitted a Zeta tone arm way back when Linn's "best" was considered to be outperformed by the Zeta and haven't regretted a minute of it for over twenty years. If anything at all contributes to the LP12 sounding different (not different to other TTs, I hasten to add), it must be the choice of cartridge and over the years I've tried a few.

The LP12 has been maintained and fettled religiously and the Zeta has been serviced and re-wired by Johnnie at Audio Origami (manufacturer of his own very fine - world renowned - PU7 tone arms, here in Scotland, just like the Linn) and the current cartridge in residence is a Transfiguration Orpheus.

There are many criticisms of the LP 12 and like most things musical and hi-fi, the final conclusion as to the performance of the TT is subjective and in many ways also reliant on the components that make up the remainder of the system. However, an extremely friendly local dealer that I rely on used to wax lyrical about 'solid' decks and maintain that my "old fish box LP12 bouncer" wasn't as accurate as those without the bounce!! It didn't take him long to be converted when the Dunlop brothers of ART loudspeakers resumed production of their father's famous Systemdek, albeit a totally different design from the original, a "bouncer" nonetheless. This TT bounces in a different manner to the LP12 and is manufactured with state-of-the-art components made from contemporary materials and it has to be said that it's the best TT I have ever heard, but then it ought to be, with the top of the range coming in at over twenty thousand of my British pounds!!

My Linn LP12 (if you can still call it an LP12) still 'floats my boat', 'butters my muffin' and makes serious music in my house........Long live the LP12.

Thanks for your interest, Regards,

W.

Hi,

I hope this isn't too off topic, but is the name "Linn" due to their original location near Linn park in Glasgow's sooside?

Mike

 

[microstrip]

(...) . My first CD player was the Sony model below the X7ES, don't recall the model (...)

Wasn't it the Sony CDP-X337es, using the Philips TDA1541A DAC? As far as I remember it was also my first CD player - although I later bought an used X7ES. Both are still playing at friend's systems. Still miss the smooth and fast drawer opening and closing of the X7ES.

 

[karma]

Sparky,

We have something in common, we were both at that CES! What a madhouse... My first CD player was the Sony model below the X7ES, don't recall the model. Up 'til then I just listened and borrowed from the stores I worked. Accuphase and Meridian also had good units, at least IMO, but my hearing probably wasn't/isn't as refined as yours. I waited a long time for the sound to catch up to the specs and the hype. By the time I broke down and bought a player, my life was heading down the family path and audio took a back seat for a decade-plus. I am an analog guy but was designing high-speed data converters so I followed with some interest.

Cheers,
Don

HI Don,
You were there too? That's great! As I was writing that post, I wondered if anyone on this thread was there. I dismissed the thought as silly. The odds are heavily against the coincidence. Madhouse is the right word. You are the only other person I have talked to that attended.

The X7, I thought, was a fantastic CD player. Since my major interest was always in analog, I never really put it face to face against others of of its own generation or, for that matter, any of the later players. It sounded good and that was all I cared about. I would still be curious about the outcome. My basic thought is that it would still hold up well. It was an over sampling design (18X I believe ((an odd number)) but it doesn't say on the front panel and I don't feel like chasing the manual down; I could be wrong).

And yes, the speed of the drawer is excellent. Also, its smoothness, buttery smooth. It looks and handles like a top drawer model.

I guess none of you all are familiar with Ivor's demonstration. Am I too old-yes! Did I dream it? NO. I am truly surprised.

Sparky

 

[DaveyF]

Sparky, I don't remember that aspect of the Linn as being a part of the 'lore' so to speak. However, i do remember that at that time, Ivor was pushing the fact that the belt drive mechanism and the quality and accuracy of the machining, was a main reason why the table sounded better. Most everyone had gone over to Direct drive and the Japanese manufacturer's at that time were really pushing that. The other claim from Ivor, which i think he was also right about, was that the table should NOT be put on a heavy base as was popular at the time, instead a lightweight stand that would transmit less energy was the way to go.
I'm sure there were many other claims also, but I cannot recollect them; so what you are saying wouldn't surprise me. ( BTW, i'm not saying that Ivor's claim to your point is incorrect or snake oil either)

 

[karma]

As someone who has owned a SOTA Star Sapphire and a VPI TNT among many others, I can tell you the SP-10 MKII is the real deal. I’m not interested into going back in time to the Garrard 301/401 and the Thorens TD-124 though. The next thing you know you will be nostalgic for 78s that you never owned or played and proclaim them to be the greatest.

HI Mark,
I'm with you on this. And there are other circles that we are into that others can't understand. Tubes, after being consigned to the grave, have made an incredible comeback. Who woulda guessed. Vinyl too, while not as clinically dead as tubes, was a dead technology. And, while I don't think its comeback will ever be as dramatic as tubes, it's definitely coming back. Who woulda guessed. Then there are circles within circles. The SET movement is an example of a circle within the circle of tubes, and tugging on their coat tails are horn speakers. Will CD's be a come back technology in the future? It wouldn't surprise me.

I don't think cassettes will ever recover. I still use cassettes because I have great Nakamichi's (Dragon and ZX-7) and a stock of good tape. I have never bought pre-recorded tapes (I have exactly 1, a gift) but often I will record a record that I know I will be listening to often. By this means I can save wear on the record. And make no mistake, a Dragon can make a very high quality copy.

Generally, vintage audio is a hot subject. I think much of this is due to economics. High end audio has become so expensive that alternatives are sought. Vintage stuff can offer tremendous value. But not state of the art performance.

The two that most amazes me is the idler drive movement and the SET movement.

Sparky

 

[karma]

Ivor’s Demonstration
Part 1
OK, no one here seems to be old enough to remember Ivor’s ground breaking demonstration in, I think, 1972. I have done an extensive Google search to find documentation and found none. Oh, I did find some vague references but no detail. In truth, all of the Google references are too new. None go so far back in time. I did find some wonderful interviews with Ivor. I’m including a link to the best one:

http://www.auriclepublishing.com/page0/assets/Ivor Interview for web.pdf

I’m very surprised at this result. I personally consider the fallout from Ivor’s demonstrations to be the most significant contributor to modern turntable design and one of the foundations for Linn’s success with the LP12. I would bet that most current turntable designers are very familiar with Ivor’s demonstration. If they are not, shame on them. I would expect that John Atkenson (a Linn lover) and Harry Pearson remember. Certainly J. Gordon Holt would remember but he is currently not available for consultation (RIP).

Because such “out of the box” creative thinking is so unusual and inspiring, I am going to try to recreate the demonstration on paper in this forum. I want you to share my own enthusiasm and understanding for Ivor’s significant contribution to our vinyl enjoyment. He is brilliant, IMO.

Since I don’t want this write up to be lost in the mists of forum activity immediately, it’s going to be its own post. I will provide a link here when I’m finished.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-A-Short-Journey-Into-the-Mind-of-a-Great-Man

Sparky

 

[No Regrets]

HI All,
Since this thread has turned into a Linn love fest I have a question for you Linn lovers. I'm not one, BTW, but that's only because I think there are better alternatives. I still admire Linn a lot.

Ivor made Linn famous because of his discovery and demonstration of the problem of reflected energy in the vinyl. One of Linn's claims to fame is the ability to absorb this energy so as to not smear transients. This idea revolutionized turntable design. I don't believe there is a post Linn turntable that does not have some method to deal with reflected energy. I think some do it better than Linn such as Sota with their vacuum hold and vinyl compound platter. But, that does not diminish the importance of Ivor's discovery.

So, what is your view on this? I have not seen it mentioned in this thread which really surprises me. If Linn has any claim to fame it is due to this single idea. Tell me what you think, please.

Thanks, Sparky

I came to the Linn "love affair" after the demonstration that you referred to. I do remember references being made to the absorbtion of energy so as to not smear transients, although I do not recall all of the specifics. I can say that although I don't remember specifically how it is all accomplished, it certainly does work. I do not notice any smearing what so ever. I also believe that what you place your Linn on will play a role as well. I notice the difference in it's sound when the LP12 is placed on a solid mass object vs a "light, rigid stand". To my ears, the light, rigid stand is the way to go.

Another table that I've listened too that does an outstanding job of not smearing transients was the top of the line RPM table, now known as Spiral Groove.

 

[karma]

I came to the Linn "love affair" after the demonstration that you referred to. I do remember references being made to the absorbtion of energy so as to not smear transients, although I do not recall all of the specifics. I can say that although I don't remember specifically how it is all accomplished, it certainly does work. I do not notice any smearing what so ever. I also believe that what you place your Linn on will play a role as well. I notice the difference in it's sound when the LP12 is placed on a solid mass object vs a "light, rigid stand". To my ears, the light, rigid stand is the way to go.

Another table that I've listened too that does an outstanding job of not smearing transients was the top of the line RPM table, now known as Spiral Groove.

HI No Regrets,
Boy, thanks for remembering, I was beginning to think I hallucinated it.

The energy absorbing technology has been adopted by all turntable manufacturers that I know of. It is no longer exotic.

Sparky

 

[microstrip]

(...) the LP12 is placed on a solid mass object vs a "light, rigid stand". To my ears, the light, rigid stand is the way to go.

The famous rigid, light coffee table?