Modded router + modded switch + Modded access point = OMG

Xymox

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Apr 16, 2019
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I had a client accendentally hook a Switch X + Wifi X directly to a Arris S33 modem. The Switch X has NAT and so can work like a router in a limited way. He REALLY liked the result.. But of course he could not hook up his house system to the modem because cable companies only allow 1 device hooked to a modem for residential accounts. So he put back his router and hooked the Switch X to it.

Because the Switch X does NAT he was able to hook it directly to the S33. You can't do this with a normal audiophile switch.

When he put back the router there was a big drop in sound quality even from his local server. This was really disappointing for him as he had heard it sound so much better.

I offered to make him a dedicated highly modded router. The router needed to be multigig of course and based on SFP+ but he wanted it to be passive. AT first he got the router to try it unmodded. https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/CCR2004_16G_2SplusPC_230901.pdf

This was a improvement and he decided to have me mod it. I did all my normal mods that i do on the Switch X and discovered it was best run on 12V internally and so used my noise canceling r-core power supply on it.

He then hooked his S33 up to it using SFP+ ethernet @2.5Gbps. He hooked the Switch X to the SFP+ 2 port via Direct Attach Cable.

He has now reported a VAST improvement over his old router. The combo of a highly modded router, highly modded switch that does a clean isolated network and a carefully tweaked access point all run off r-core power supplies all combined into a killer system.

So I wanted to make everyone aware that your router REALLY does matter. It mattered way more then I thought. Also the combo of doing 2 in series really matters.

This also has me thinking I need to make a router and that the combined synergy of it all really matters.

I identified a lot of areas to mod.. Internal power regulators, clocks..

The 2 yellow lines are the direct traces to the SFP+ ports. They come directly from the ARM router chip. This is a very nice direct path. Isolated from all the ethernet.

IMG_00711.jpg


The red shows the clean, isolated SFP+ traces which was great as they are away from other noise on the board.

IMG_00751.jpg


The results were quite good noise wise.. This is the 3.3V that supplies the SFP+ and CPU.. This is measured at the SFP+ port. Most of this noise is down near -120dBm. This is 0hz-5Mhz. The green line is -100.. This is a 45 db drop in noise from stock. The biggest noise component is -95.93.. The harmonics from the regulator are still visible, but WAY WAY minimized.

SCREN273.GIF

You can't see all the mods, and I did even more after this pic.. But this shows some of it..

IMG_0630ss.jpg

IMG_0632ss.jpg
 
It absolutely does. Arguably more than the switch.

VERY interesting.. As to WHY, well, that is the question.. Its hard to follow what is going on. I know I seriously reduced noise on the Ethernet modulation and reduced its jitter. I know I reduced noise on the CPU / Ram / buss along with dejittering that. I know voltage regulation to the chips is a lot more precise and much lower impedance. So how does this affect sound ? For packets that dont even go thru it ?

Maybe its radiated noise. There is a TON of RF spewing from unmodded routers/switches. This radiates down the Ethernet cables plugged into them and can get onto/into everything connected to it. The RF also radiates down the power cord and gets into other gear that way. So maybe RF radiation with the wires acting as transmission antennas is causing havoc with audio gear. For sure I stomped that completely out. Well mostly.

MAYBE the jitter on the modulation and the phase noise along with voltage regulation for the Ethernet modulation chips somehow gets passed on and jitters each device in a chain. So maybe jitter occurring in the router Ethernet modulation results in jitter in the switch and signals passed thru the switch are jittered even if they dont go thru the router.

Its all very interesting..

I have a modded Arris S33 I have used for years now. I wonder if that also matters. I mod that just to provide a more stable DOCSIS cable connection. I have not considered if it affects sound.
 
Hi, have You compared the CCR2004-16G-2S+ with the CCR2004-1G-12S+2XS You have modded earlier?
Your “AppleTV X” 12V psu have enough A to this router?
 
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Hi, have You compared the CCR2004-16G-2S+ with the CCR2004-1G-12S+2XS You have modded earlier?
Your “AppleTV X” 12V psu have enough A to this router?
Good question. Curious about this one as well.
 
so you're saying that powering it at 12 volts gives you a better result than the original power range?
why is that?
 
Have you tried adding series inductors or ferrite beads of the right type into the power lines to the various devices? That "should" reduce the noise as well as confine the current loops for the switching to a much smaller area in terms of the current loop. Less coupling and smaller voltages.

Nobody does that stuff because it takes up board space and doesn't come for free. BOM size and BOM cost is pretty much all that matters. The product just has to work - not work well.
 
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It seems the routers are not (yet) the main focus of audio industry, with rare exceptions but oftentimes as added routers to existing ones.

I have a dedicated network, I describe here on WTB

Not being a tech guy I’m wondering if there are better routers available on the market, as alternatives to my actual FritzBox! 5530 (AON/GPON compliant), provided by the local ISP that by contract needs to remotely access to it:

When I read about the CCR2004-16G-2S, I asked the ISP if it is compliant to my ONT/fiber and they answered absolutely NO, it cannot work for me (don’t ask me the reason but something about GPON capability if I remember well). I would be happy to buy it on the market and just let the ISP access to it for management services, as they currently do with the FritzBox! 5530. They said it’s a no no option.

I’m searching for a better router for audio purpose only
without wifi
dead silent (it’s in my listening room)
one input (to connect to the ISP’s ONT via fiber wire)
no matter how many outputs (I use it only for audio, is a dedicated network/internet contract)
with at least a SFP port for eventually future connections to the switch with DAC cables
and of course the least noisy as possible to effectively improve sound quality
12V = 1,8 A with DC 5,5x2,5 mm connectors (to be able to use my Sean Jacobs PSU)

The ISP tech guy never answered my request, he just said that this kind of router (in his opinion and I need his approval by contract) is difficult to find if ever exists.

Any suggestions?

TIA
 
I asked the ISP if it is compliant to my ONT/fiber and they answered absolutely NO
i guess you are in italy like me, what ISP do you have? i hope not like me Iliad !!!

for a while now, I've had an idea about the importance of the router in network hifi, usually, it's the least talked about piece by audio factories, now only switches...
 
Hi gionaz, you are right! It's a local ISP (Bergamo area) called Planetel, pretty easy to reach out tech guys when needed.

As for the your comment: couldn't agree more!
 
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It seems the routers are not (yet) the main focus of audio industry, with rare exceptions but oftentimes as added routers to existing ones.

I have a dedicated network, I describe here on WTB

Not being a tech guy I’m wondering if there are better routers available on the market, as alternatives to my actual FritzBox! 5530 (AON/GPON compliant), provided by the local ISP that by contract needs to remotely access to it:

When I read about the CCR2004-16G-2S, I asked the ISP if it is compliant to my ONT/fiber and they answered absolutely NO, it cannot work for me (don’t ask me the reason but something about GPON capability if I remember well). I would be happy to buy it on the market and just let the ISP access to it for management services, as they currently do with the FritzBox! 5530. They said it’s a no no option.

I’m searching for a better router for audio purpose only
without wifi
dead silent (it’s in my listening room)
one input (to connect to the ISP’s ONT via fiber wire)
no matter how many outputs (I use it only for audio, is a dedicated network/internet contract)
with at least a SFP port for eventually future connections to the switch with DAC cables
and of course the least noisy as possible to effectively improve sound quality
12V = 1,8 A with DC 5,5x2,5 mm connectors (to be able to use my Sean Jacobs PSU)

The ISP tech guy never answered my request, he just said that this kind of router (in his opinion and I need his approval by contract) is difficult to find if ever exists.

Any suggestions?

TIA

Ciao Luca,
It's essentially the same information as mentioned in the Best Audiophile Switch thread (aside from my impatience about why, in 2024, we still haven't resolved noise control upstream so we can focus our investments downstream).

There was also a brief discussion about Fritzbox SFP module/cables on WBF. Not sure but maybe a swap adds flexibility besides changing the SQ?

 
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Got it, thanks.
 
Hi, have You compared the CCR2004-16G-2S+ with the CCR2004-1G-12S+2XS You have modded earlier?
Your “AppleTV X” 12V psu have enough A to this router?
Wow, whoops sorry. I did not see all these responses..

Yes the CCR2004-16G-2S+ is a good one. Its passive cooling. It also has this great layout for the PC board traces for the SFP+ modules.

IF a person can live with the fan then sure a CCR2116-12G-4S+ might be the way to go.. I use that one for my house system. I feed a Switch X from that. I can mod that one as well..

The CCR2004-16G-2S+ is a good one because of its passive cooling, great SFP+ board layout ( good for low noise ) and is powerful and *sorta* multigig ready.

Because my engineering focuses on the PWM regulation internally and various stuff like clocks, the things I do can be applied to nearly any digital device. For example these mods work wonders for a Merging DAC. Then with the Switch X doing Ravenna its a mighty impressive setup. So I can apply these engineering changes to most any router. But the CCR2004-16G-2S+ is noice because of its passive cooling.
 
so you're saying that powering it at 12 volts gives you a better result than the original power range?
why is that?

The device runs internally on 12V. So I just feed it more directly. YES this results in magnitudes of measured improvement. Also I feed it 14.15V..
 
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It seems the routers are not (yet) the main focus of audio industry, with rare exceptions but oftentimes as added routers to existing ones.

I have a dedicated network, I describe here on WTB

Not being a tech guy I’m wondering if there are better routers available on the market, as alternatives to my actual FritzBox! 5530 (AON/GPON compliant), provided by the local ISP that by contract needs to remotely access to it:

When I read about the CCR2004-16G-2S, I asked the ISP if it is compliant to my ONT/fiber and they answered absolutely NO, it cannot work for me (don’t ask me the reason but something about GPON capability if I remember well). I would be happy to buy it on the market and just let the ISP access to it for management services, as they currently do with the FritzBox! 5530. They said it’s a no no option.

I’m searching for a better router for audio purpose only
without wifi
dead silent (it’s in my listening room)
one input (to connect to the ISP’s ONT via fiber wire)
no matter how many outputs (I use it only for audio, is a dedicated network/internet contract)
with at least a SFP port for eventually future connections to the switch with DAC cables
and of course the least noisy as possible to effectively improve sound quality
12V = 1,8 A with DC 5,5x2,5 mm connectors (to be able to use my Sean Jacobs PSU)

The ISP tech guy never answered my request, he just said that this kind of router (in his opinion and I need his approval by contract) is difficult to find if ever exists.

Any suggestions?

TIA

Yes most likely you can use a seperate router, as most anyone can.. You place your existing router in "bridge" mode. This option is present in I think ever cable modem / ONT router.

Remember the router supplies the house, not just your audio gear. So typically you need a router with the ISP supplied device in bridge mode. You will then need to setup a professional level wifi access point system. So there are 3 parts to all systems. Modem ( Fiber/cable) > Router > Wifi access points.

BUT you can get a BIG improvement just using my Switch X. You leave your existing system and plug the Switch X into it. The Switch X creates a isolated network for audio use only and a WiFi X gives you wifi to control the audio gear via a ipad you dedicate to this use. This clean network is the new standard way of doing high end audio. I have a paper on how to do this. https://dejitterit.com/SwitchX/SWITCHX.pdf

Later you could do a house router. But best to start with a Switch X and get that setup before moving to the house router.
 

Ciao Luca,
It's essentially the same information as mentioned in the Best Audiophile Switch thread (aside from my impatience about why, in 2024, we still haven't resolved noise control upstream so we can focus our investments downstream).

There was also a brief discussion about Fritzbox SFP module/cables on WBF. Not sure but maybe a swap adds flexibility besides changing the SQ?


The Switch X has the advantage of being able to do any SFP/SFP+ modules. I have a lot of clients that have played with a bunch of modules.

Yes I agree, working on the upstream gear is important. I have modded my routers and modems for years.
 
There are reviews in progress for the Switch X by 3 different high profile reviewers. Pretty exciting for me..

There was a press event recently and my Switch X was discussed..

plus the Dejitterit SwitchX (more on that soon) resulted in an inescapable conclusion on my part.

The Master Fidelity NADAC D+C stack was absolutely the best that I've ever heard. In fact, it joins my very short list of sui generis components. Best of the best...nothing like it.

There are more write ups in progress and reviews coming soon. Pretty exciting for me.
 
Yes most likely you can use a seperate router, as most anyone can.. You place your existing router in "bridge" mode. This option is present in I think ever cable modem / ONT router.

Remember the router supplies the house, not just your audio gear. So typically you need a router with the ISP supplied device in bridge mode. You will then need to setup a professional level wifi access point system. So there are 3 parts to all systems. Modem ( Fiber/cable) > Router > Wifi access points.

BUT you can get a BIG improvement just using my Switch X. You leave your existing system and plug the Switch X into it. The Switch X creates a isolated network for audio use only and a WiFi X gives you wifi to control the audio gear via a ipad you dedicate to this use. This clean network is the new standard way of doing high end audio. I have a paper on how to do this. https://dejitterit.com/SwitchX/SWITCHX.pdf

Later you could do a house router. But best to start with a Switch X and get that setup before moving to the house router.
Thanks but I already have a different separate router in my music room. I mean a dedicated ISP contract with its own line and router. This is a FritzBox! 5530 provided by the ISP, with LED and WiFi disabled. The router is powered by a Sean Jacobs PSU.

Connected to the router I have a NA Tempus switch, then a NA Muon Pro filter, to the Innuos Statement server/streamer.
 
Thanks but I already have a different separate router in my music room. I mean a dedicated ISP contract with its own line and router. This is a FritzBox! 5530 provided by the ISP, with LED and WiFi disabled. The router is powered by a Sean Jacobs PSU.

Connected to the router I have a NA Tempus switch, then a NA Muon Pro filter, to the Innuos Statement server/streamer.

The NA Tempus is a old technology in several areas. It also uses internal power regulators based on switching regulation - very typical with these type devices. They do not address the noise AFTER the switched mode PWM regulators on the board feeding the chips. I do. This is a huge difference in performance.

The linear i use has noise canceling using remote sensing. It cancels noise inside the Switch X. There is no other linear doing this. This method results in 20uV RMS of noise on the DC supply and DC regulation at 0.00001Vdc max under load. These numbers cannot be reached without remote sensing. The noise canceling extends to 10Mhz. Its based on a R-Core transformer which is a next gen transformer technology. The Sean Jacobs PSU is old tech and does not use sensing / noise cancellation and because of this it cannot reach the low noise levels under load that a sensing supply can. Its typical of old school 12V supplies of years back. It also uses a toroid VS the new technology R-Core transformer which has much higher isolation.

The combo of the linear I make with a R-Core transformer, sensing 4 wire connection and impedance matching to the exact device makes for a vastly better solution.

You have a switch. The Switch X uses NAT to also work as a router. So in your case you could "bridge" your home ISP router so it does minimal processing and hook the Switch X up directly where it will act as a router.

Features and engineering of the Switch X are covered here. https://dejitterit.com/SwitchXFeatures.htm

The switch X has a 10Gbps backplane and processing power. So it is 10X more powerful and faster then the NA Tempus.

I do not see that the NA Tempus even supports AES67/Dante/Ravenna. Which is really important for the future for super high end audio. The Switch X supports 16 channels of DSD256 via Ravenna using Merging gear in studio work.

I don't see any measurements on the site of performance.

The NA Tempus does not do NAT and so cannot create a clean isolated network, not that you need one in your situation as long as the ONLY devices on this are the your audio devices and a ipad on the wireless. How do you control your digital player without wifi ?. The best way to do this is to have a special wifi access point MADE to work with / around audio gear plugged into the clean side, or at least into your switch.

The NA Tempus, and others, were good tech some years back. There are new generation devices now based on 10Gbps and better power supply solutions. ALso the future involves layer 2 protocols not just a "switch".

I realize there are bold statements. I want to allow the reviews in progress to discuss the Switch X more and then there can be more discussion. The Switch X + dedicated linear is a next gen device on many levels. I have applied all this same engineering to a house router and a DOCSIS ( cable ) modem and a ONT BGW320-505 + SFP+ fiber WAN connection. I have both fiber and DCOSIS here at my lab. So I have addressed the entire path all the way to the ISP fiber or ISP coax.

Once formal reviews come out, I will discuss more.

 

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