Most Accurate Stylus Force Gauge?

[PeterA]

it's a cartridge<->platter issue. and has to do with the strength of the cartridge magnets and platter metallurgy being spotty (different in different platter locations). if your platter has the same effect everywhere you might still have the issue, but don't obviously know it. i'm sure someone here can provide us a way to measure platter magnetic attraction variance.

i know my CS Port LFT1 has a 40kg stainless steel platter which has this consistent effect, so they changed the newest version to nickel plated brass platter. your AS-2000 has a 100kg (or more) stainless platter. have no idea whether it has this effect.

my Etsuro Gold cartridge seems perfectly happy on my CS Port tt. so i don't worry about it (maybe i should? )

agree it's preferrable that you don't have any issue with it.

the user can use a different cartridge on that particular platter. but it's helpful to realize it to begin with to be able to avoid that effect on playback.

i don't have any arms with dynamic balance where you dial in the tracking force. i did briefly have the Ikeda which did work that way and measuring it did seem accurate.....if not exactly perfectly precise. again, precise is needed for repeatability.

Thanks Mike. If the platter is magnetized, then yes the bigger the magnets in the cartridge, the greater the effect. It seems strange that it would vary across the width of the platter. I would try to avoid the issue if known about, especially if it varies across the platter.

Apparently some alloys get magnetized in the machining process. The AS2000 upper platter is made from a very rare type of alloy that does not get magnetized so it is not an issue, even with cartridges like the high output Colibris that have very strong magnets.

I do not think the VTF scale on the arm has anything to do with dynamic versus static tracking force. The SME V has the option of using either. The 3012R has only static. The scale on each arm is accurate if it is well balanced before tracking force is applied. I agree that accuracy is important for repeatability. Some claim they can hear differences in 1/100ths of a gram (0.0Xg). I get mine to 1/10th of a gram and it is good enough by ear. Different listeners should get the degree of accuracy that matters to them for piece of mind.

 

[Another Johnson]

When your new gauge comes, compare it to your Shure mechanical balance beam.

I have had the Shure since forever. I’ve had two or three of the electronic scales. The one I have at the present was pricey.

If I measure the tracking force with the Shure and it is 1.75 grams, it measures 1.72 grams on the electronic.

 

[PeterA]

When your new gauge comes, compare it to your Shure mechanical balance beam.

I have had the Shure since forever. I’ve had two or three of the electronic scales. The one I have at the present was pricey.

If I measure the tracking force with the Shure and it is 1.75 grams, it measures 1.72 grams on the electronic.

Which do you think is correct, and how would you know? Does it even matter?

 

[Another Johnson]

Which do you think is correct, and how would you know? Does it even matter?

I don’t think it does. I had a couple of the electronic versions from VPI and each gives its own reading. They’re all always close. Perhaps .1 gram would be the general range of the specimens.

To put .1 gram into perspective for those in the US, it is equal to about 3.5 thousandths of an ounce. If you can’t hear it, how important could it be? If you can hear it, change/adjust to suit your ears.

 

[PeterA]

I don’t think it does. I had a couple of the electronic versions from VPI and each gives its own reading. They’re all always close. Perhaps .1 gram would be the general range of the specimens.

To put .1 gram into perspective for those in the US, it is equal to about 3.5 thousandths of an ounce. If you can’t hear it, how important could it be? If you can hear it, change/adjust to suit your ears.

The next question for someone smarter than I am, is how much does the SRA change with an increase of 0.1g VTF? It depends on the compliance of the cartridge and perhaps on the design of the arm.

I see only two reasons to use one of these scales:
1. To confirm the accuracy of the built in VTF scale on the arm, if it has one, and
2. For repeatability if changing cartridges back and forth to make set up quicker.

Of course, one must usually adjust alignment when changing cartridges too, and anti skate, so I always confirm by listening anyway.

The scale on arm for VTA adjustments is a similar issue it seems to me. How repeatable is that? I like using playing cards to measure precisely VTA for adjustability and repeatability on the SME 3012R. Other arms may have scales on them, but then you have to go by approximation each time you change cartridges. Some people just make the arm level using a bubble level. That too is subject to accuracy and repeatability.

 

[Another Johnson]

The next question for somewhat smarter than I am, is how much does the SRA change with an increase of 0.1g VTF? It depends on the compliance of the cartridge and perhaps on the design of the arm.

I see only two reasons to use one of these scales:
1. To confirm the accuracy of the built in VTF scale on the arm, if it has one, and
2. For repeatability if changing cartridges back and forth to make set up quicker.

Of course, one must usually adjust alignment when changing cartridges too, and anti skate, so I always confirm by listening anyway.

The scale on arm for VTA adjustments is a similar issue it seems to me. How repeatable is that? I like using playing cards to measure precisely VTA for adjustability and repeatability on the SME 3012R. Other arms may have scales on them, but then you have to go by approximation each time you change cartridges. Some people just make the arm level using a bubble level. That too is subject to accuracy and repeatability.

SRA/VTA adjustments seem to be a huge deal to some folks.

I had both gimbal and univ-pivot VPI arms with VTA on the fly.

What I found in my circumstance is that the VTA screw had a lot of slop. It was affected by whether you approached from above or below. And in my case, I found that the adjustable pillar added undesired variability to the sound.

Eventually, using my own ears, I decided that I agree with Linn’s assertion that you lose more with the adjustment than you gain by the rigid, stiff, contiguous arm pillar.

I know it is heretical to say it, but if HP and HW hadn’t been good friends, I don’t think the idea of messing with VTA for every record would have gotten legs.

TTs attract a special type of detail oriented person. Measuring and adjusting trumps listening for many. Back 40+ years ago we used to joke about the audiophiles who had super high end systems* and 10 records, each with only one worn out track. Measuring and adjusting to chase sound is a legitimate hobby, but it’s only loosely connected to listening to musicians perform.

* super high end meant maybe $2k to $4k worth of gear.

 

[Folsom]

Apparently some alloys get magnetized in the machining process. The AS2000 upper platter is made from a very rare type of alloy that does not get magnetized so it is not an issue, even with cartridges like the high output Colibris that have very strong magnets.

Low/no iron stainless steel isn't and won't be magnetic. It's not alchemy of a mysterious secret learned from ancient beings who once roamed the earth and had wireless electricity. It's just stainless that wasn't contaminated. Now the machining process... not easy.

As to what Ron is going on about, who cares? If you're accurate withing 0.1g that's more than good enough. The final touches are by site and sound anyways.

 

[Another Johnson]

Low/no iron stainless steel isn't and won't be magnetic. It's not alchemy of a mysterious secret learned from ancient beings who once roamed the earth and had wireless electricity. It's just stainless that wasn't contaminated. Now the machining process... not easy.

As to what Ron is going on about, who cares? If you're accurate withing 0.1g that's more than good enough. The final touches are by site and sound anyways.

Just for fun, I tested the Linn platters on my LP12s. I don’t know what the alloy is. They are NOT magnetic.

From Peter Swain’s Cymbiosis website:
The LINN outer platter is a precision piece of engineering. The process starts with a Zinc alloy casting which is then machined. It’s then left for a couple of weeks for the metal to de-stress. Machined again, left to rest and then finally cut and polished.

 

[rob]

Winds or Ortofon.

 

[Another Johnson]

Here’s a warning

Beware Magnetized Stylus Pressure Gauges!

Revolv has sold a lot of these useful vertical tracking force gauges. To the best of their knowledge—and they know their stuff—they are not magnetized. Yet the one I got surely is as you can see in the video below (there's no sound).

www.analogplanet.com

and here’s a lot of choices

Turntable and Tonearm Essentials | Stylus Force Tracking Gauges - Analogue Seduction

Turntable and Tonearm Essentials - Stylus Force Tracking Gauges from Analogue Seduction

www.analogueseduction.net

You know you want the Clearaudio. Go for it.

 

[mtemur]

Here’s a warning

Beware Magnetized Stylus Pressure Gauges!

Revolv has sold a lot of these useful vertical tracking force gauges. To the best of their knowledge—and they know their stuff—they are not magnetized. Yet the one I got surely is as you can see in the video below (there's no sound).

www.analogplanet.com

That article from analogplanet about magnetization is totally misleading. People who have enough knowledge or engineering background already figured it out that there is no problem. (SAT) Marc Gomez's explanatory response is included in the following article.

 

[Another Johnson]

That article from analogplanet about magnetization is totally misleading. People who have enough knowledge or engineering background already figured it out that there is no problem. (SAT) Marc Gomez's explanatory response is included in the following article.

Yes. I saw that too … still, it’s another example of the deaf explaining to the deaf.

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I use the 'Cartridge Man Enterprises' Digital Stylus Force Gauge model 'DFG420B. It is also rechargeable !

The Cartridge Man Digital Stylus Force Gauge

The Cartridge Man Digital Stylus Tracking Force Gauge Users of vinyl are well aware of the importance of being able to accurately set their cartridge tracking down-force. Failure to do this can result in anything from degraded sonic performance, through to mis-tracking and even damage to the...

www.analogueseduction.net

 

[tima]

It would be amusing to line these choices up to learn how a certified 1 gram weight would measure.

 

[Another Johnson]

I’ve got calibration weights for some other small scales. I’ll see if I can find them in the morning.

But FWIW, both my Ittok and Ekos SE are set as close to 1.75 grams as I can read their dials. Both measure 1.75 grams on the Shure SFG-2. Both measure 1.72 grams on the unbadged Chinese sourced electronic that I think came from Levinson when I bought their first TT.

 

[Another Johnson]

This is OEM info about the SFG-2

******
The Shure Model SFG-2 Stylus Tracking Force Gauge is a highly accurate beam balance that is designed for measuring stylus tracking forces from 0.5 to 3.0 grams in .05 gram increments. Its rolling bearing pin pivots are engineered for minimal friction. Each SFG-2 Tracking Force Gauge is factory calibrated.
*******
It’s really hard to make a case against the SFG-2. It is well built. It would not get damaged by putting something heavier than intended on it. It has good bearings. Its factory calibrated. The mirror allows you to read it precisely. I cannot remember a single case where it performed poorly for me.

I have an Ortofon balance beam type scale too, but it is harder to read due to the short beam. But it works too.

The three electronic units I’ve owned were all unbadged, and came with fancy VPI built TTs, including the one they built for Levinson. I owned them with overlap, so I did compare them. If you lined them up, and read them, they varied by +/- .05 gram. I kept the one that was closest to the Ekos SE dial and the SFG-2.

For those unfamiliar, the Ittok and Ekos SE have a symmetric counterweight on the far side of the pillar. You set the dial to 0 grams and then (very easily) adjust the counterweight to balance the arm after you’ve set your overhang at the cartridge end. Then you adjust the dial to your chosen VTF. I’ve been using these arms for 38 years (I’ve probably had the SFG-2 at least that long). The Ittok (my current one is the third version with 1” pillar and third hole for the Troika) and Ekos SE are both precision pieces of kit. The Ittok was designed in Glasgow but built in Japan due to lack of precision building capabilities at the factory at that time (more than 40 years ago). By the time the Ekos SE was designed (also in Glasgow), Linn developed the in-house precision build capabilities, so it is UK built.

In any event, the premise of the OP that the Shure balance beam is probably inferior to the modern offerings is incorrect. If the OP buys a new gauge and it reads significantly different from the Shure balance beam, I know which one I would trust.

 

[Another Johnson]

I’ve got calibration weights for some other small scales. I’ll see if I can find them in the morning.

We downsized last year (from over 7500 ft2 to about 4500 ft2. Lots of stuff did not survive … and I have not been able to put my hands on those calibration weights. I’m not going to worry about it. With the Linn precision arms, I only use the gauge to confirm the dial anyways. After 48 years of setting up component level TTs, no need to get OCD about it now. YMMV

 

[Ron Resnick]

The three electronic units I’ve owned were all unbadged,

In any event, the premise of the OP that the Shure balance beam is probably inferior to the modern offerings is incorrect.

Hi!

I don't see anything to argue about here. Just personal preference, but the Shure balance beam felt a little junkie, and I'm a little bit suspicious of generic, unbadged electronic units.

I would be curious to learn the results of Tim's suggested shootout, using a calibrated weight to compare the accuracy of the Shure balance beam to the Ortofon DS-3, the Clearaudio Weight Watcher, the Rega Alex and the Cartridge Man.

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

I use the ClearAudio Weightwatcher.

I can't say what is the best one to get so long as it has a flat surface unobstructed by anything surrounding the landing zone and offers calibration + weight. I have had some carts that have recessed styli/cantilevers that wont reach because the body hits the outer area of the measuring surface, so this is a requirement for me. And because weight readings can fluctuate, a way to calibrate it using a weight ensures the readings are consistent

 

[Believe High Fidelity]

I should also note over the years lighter VTF (within the Mfg specs) tends to perform better than higher VTF