MSB Diamond IV Select dac

[Priaptor]

All this is a matter of opinion . If I can afford to pay usd42k for a DAC IV & I can have a new & BETTER ( that's the key word) model DAC V costing usd47k released within 1 month of my purchased , it's obsolete in my mind . I wouldn't want the DAC IV knowing that DAC V is available for a few grands more. With discount it probably can't buy me enough pieces of Ultra 5 footers for the DAC

Audioblazer, if you go to their website you will see they have upgrade paths from the IV to V within the parameters of the $$ that you list as a difference between the two. So if you paid 42K for a a IV and the V is 47K, that is within the range of the upgrade they are providing. Am I missing something?

 

[still-one]

HELLO, MCFLY, wake up.

I quoted YOU from post #72 which stated:

"I don't understand either of your responses. (Priaptor & audioblazer) How is the unit obsolete?"

YOU NOT ME, in your post 72 claimed I with audioblazer made some statement about some product (enlighten me) was obsolete.

I did not quote you from your post 67 I quoted YOUR post 72

Can you read? You quoted me (my post 67) in your post #69 after I responded to someone else (post 67)where I was discussing the term obsolete. I then stated in #72 that I didn't understand what your post #69 had to do with my questioning why a product would become "obsolete" when it is still fully functional.

 

[audioblazer]

Audioblazer, if you go to their website you will see they have upgrade paths from the IV to V within the parameters of the $$ that you list as a difference between the two. So if you paid 42K for a a IV and the V is 47K, that is within the range of the upgrade they are providing. Am I missing something?

Yes you are. When diamond select was priced at USD75k, MSB offered my dealer for USD60k to upgrade my Diamond IV retailing for USD42k. Today (6 months after my upgrade ) ,I discovered that they have launched Diamond IV for about USd47k including noise isolator & network renderer which they claimed to be better than Select 2014. My audio buddy just bought diamond IV a month ago . Likewise I bought Diamond IV 1 month before Select 2014 was launched .Diamond Select 2015 is now retailing for USD90k. I just don't like MSB practise of not informing their potential buyer of a new model to be launched v soon. Mind you, the waiting period for Diamond IV is at least 2-3 months .

 

[audioblazer]

Worse still I realized that the next upgrade I have to pay the difference in price btw my last upgrade price ie USD60k even though I would have a USD90k DAC by then. I would expect it to be the difference between the 90k DAC & the latest DAC for my subsequent upgrade .
The actual price of DAC 2015 is not more than USD60-70k. The price USd90 k is not real since buyer is just paying upfront money for the next upgrade going by the price difference btw Dismond IV & V . So Buyers are just paying advance money for the next free upgrade that is not exactly free since the 2nd upgrade ( assuming after 1 year ) is the price btw your last purchase price & the latest price . My feeling is that the subsequent upgrade is irrelevant to me since it will be a hugh price difference .i can expect the next upgrade to probably cost usd110k & I have to pay usd50k . So anybody want to buy my unit for USd60k once upgrade mine to USD90k version ???

 

[Priaptor]

Worse still I realized that the next upgrade I have to pay the difference in price btw my last upgrade price ie USD60k even though I would have a USD90k DAC by then. I would expect it to be the difference between the 90k DAC & the latest DAC for my subsequent upgrade .
The actual price of DAC 2015 is not more than USD60-70k. The price USd90 k is not real since buyer is just paying upfront money for the next upgrade going by the price difference btw Dismond IV & V . So Buyers are just paying advance money for the next free upgrade that is not exactly free since the 2nd upgrade ( assuming after 1 year ) is the price btw your last purchase price & the latest price . My feeling is that the subsequent upgrade is irrelevant to me since it will be a hugh price difference .i can expect the next upgrade to probably cost usd110k & I have to pay usd50k . So anybody want to buy my unit for USd60k once upgrade mine to USD90k version ???

I understand. I didn't realize your were referring to the Select. I have bashing MSB just for the reasons you list. I couldn't agree more.

The money doesn't add up for the Select program. IF they had a program where you paid 45K difference upfront for guaranteed upgrades for 10 years or renewable 4K per year for the same, where you PAID NOTHING for any future upgrades beyond your initial 45K maybe then I could understand it as they have your 40K collecting interest. But to have you paid that delta upfront with a "one year" guarantee and anything thereafter you still have to pay the price between what you bought and the price of the new is double dipping and makes no sense to me.

I was referring to the DAC IV where they are charging 7K to move to a DAC V which is actually a better deal than what they are offering their select customers, another disconnect in marketing IMO.

I think their concept is a good one, just their implementation sucks as like you, I don't understand how this is so beneficial to the select customers.

 

[Priaptor]

Can you read? You quoted me (my post 67) in your post #69 after I responded to someone else (post 67)where I was discussing the term obsolete. I then stated in #72 that I didn't understand what your post #69 had to do with my questioning why a product would become "obsolete" when it is still fully functional.

We OBVIOUSLY have a "failure to communicate"

 

[edorr]

I understand. I didn't realize your were referring to the Select. I have bashing MSB just for the reasons you list. I couldn't agree more.

The upgrade path from standard IV to V is fine, but offering the IV select for $60K for just a few months and then replace it with a better and cheaper V borders on deliberately deceptive trade practices. They screwed their select IV buyers.

 

[Priaptor]

The upgrade path from standard IV to V is fine, but offering the IV select for $60K for just a few months and then replace it with a better and cheaper V borders on deliberately deceptive trade practices. They screwed their select IV buyers.

I couldn't agree more. I think this whole Select thing stinks, IMO. Like I said, if they offered totally free upgrades for 10 years, then maybe, but to have pay such a delta and then have to pay even more after one year makes absolutely NO sense.

 

[audioblazer]

I wonder anybody realise it's not exactly a free upgrade . U purchased a Diamond IV . Upgrade it to Diamond Select 2014 for usd60k/75k which sounded different & not necessary better but quieter& a lot less flexibility eg no upsampling etc. U pay a retail difference of about USD18/33k. U get the next upgrade for "free" that cost USD90k. Then 2016 , MSB comes out with another upgrade , say, USd110k. Now u have to pay USD50k. So how is the Select 2015 upgrade free ? U are just having a loaner for 1 year, after which you are paying full price & get stuck in MSB upgrade cycle. Definitely going to try to sell my MSB Select 2015 & stop being the sucker for MSB questionable practise . This is merely my opinion abt MSB so called flawed upgrade program

 

[Priaptor]

I wonder anybody realise it's not exactly a free upgrade . U purchased a Diamond IV . Upgrade it to Diamond Select 2014 for usd60k/75k which sounded different & not necessary better but quieter& a lot less flexibility eg no upsampling etc. U pay a retail difference of about USD18/33k. U get the next upgrade for "free" that cost USD90k. Then 2016 , MSB comes out with another upgrade , say, USd110k. Now u have to pay USD50k. So how is the Select 2015 upgrade free ? U are just having a loaner for 1 year, after which you are paying full price & get stuck in MSB upgrade cycle. Definitely going to try to sell my MSB Select 2015 & stop being the sucker for MSB questionable practise . This is merely my opinion abt MSB so called flawed upgrade program

Yes I too questioned their logic as well when they started this project that initially started with "hand selected" parts and "burn in" in the factory with this crazy "upgrade policy".

If they want to sell an obsolescence free policy to the enduser to keep them an MSB customer they can't have you pay a HUGE premium on the front end PLUS everytime there is an upgrade with the exception of the first year. I thought it an aweful "program" when introduced and worse now after the consequences to endusers like yourself.

 

[audioblazer]

It's a suck upgrade program . More like a loaner program

 

[seriouslyhifi]

I agree that the Select upgrade is a flawed programme. The first year free upgrade has no value as you will eventually get caught up the next year and anyway pay the actual retail, so there is actually no free upgrade at all. You are just postponing the payment by a year.
MSB should have just said that the Select has a 10 year programme where your DAC will never be obsolete and can be upgraded at a price if one chooses to.
And anyway for the Select programme they were taking a premium for entry to start with and you were supposed to get a year of free upgrades no questions asked. That is the premium for what the Select programme was for in everyone`s mind and the way it was explained on their web site.
Regarding the DAC IV to V upgrade programme I am fine with and it is perfect. At least a customer has an opportunity to upgrade at a fraction of his purchase and that no other manufacturer does, If someone gets caught purchasing a DAC IV and the DAC V comes out pretty soon after his purchase, I feel that is a part of the high-end game and we all know that. Nothing unusual about it really. Every manufacturer does that. That now is a completely different problem and not only a MSB problem. Magico, Wilson, McIntosh, Sonus Faber and even Samsung do it.

 

[audioblazer]

I have no problem with the upgrade from Diamond IV to V. My issue is that MSB knew that they are coming out with V very soon ( about 1 month ) & didn't even inform distributors about it . The same with my unit . To ship to & fro from malaysia is pricey . It's not like transporting from 1 state to another state in USA cheaply

 

[seriouslyhifi]

I sympathise and am with you a 100%. All of us at some point in our audiophile life have got caught in that trap, but unfortunately it is a High-End problem and every high-end manufacturer is guilty of the same.
Even MSB follows the same rules as otherwise every manufacturer will find it impossible to sell their products in the last 3 to 4 months of their cycle and will be left with inventory and no sales.
Luckily in MSB`s favour is that actually have an upgrade path. Imagine if you had just purchased the Scarlatti and the Vivaldi came out a month after that. And that is nothing against DCS at all, as every high-end manufacturer does the same.

 

[audioblazer]

Whatever is it the model is changing too fast that I doubt any of their upgraded model is thoroughly research . It is really a joke to have 2/3 major upgrade in 1-1.5 years for your top model . You don't see Boulder or Gryphon having such practise

 

[Elberoth]

Luckily in MSB`s favour is that actually have an upgrade path. Imagine if you had just purchased the Scarlatti and the Vivaldi came out a month after that. And that is nothing against DCS at all, as every high-end manufacturer does the same.

The Scarlatti was in production for 8 years, with only software updates. Vivaldi launch was not unexpected. But I hear you and it does happen all the time in hi-end.

 

[Elberoth]

Yes I too questioned their logic as well when they started this project that initially started with "hand selected" parts and "burn in" in the factory with this crazy "upgrade policy".

This is sth that doesn't make sense to me.

I can understand parts selection. Afterall, in real life, components never measure the same (be it capacitors, transistors or even resistors), so within the very same components batch, there always will be comonenst that measure slightly better, and slightly worse.

If you are a manufacturer, you can hand pick those that measure best and put them on a side for your 'super project'. This is what Philips was doing for years with their 1541 chips, which came as a regular, Crown and Double Crown variants (the last one never comercially sold AFAIK). The hand-picking process is always very pricey, as it is very labour intensive, so the $32k extra MSB was charging for their 2014 DAC IV Select over a regular DAC IV Diamond ($75-$43=$32), made sense. The best parts went to the Select, those slightly worse to the Diamond. MSB DAC IV Select was their 'super project' with very high price tag and very limited supply (due to the rarity of 'super parts').

They are now claiming, that the new DAC V Diamond will employ all the elements of the 2014 MSB Select DAC plus some extra technology recently developed.

So is safe to assume, it will also employ those 'super parts'. But how they can put those 'super parts' in ALL of their DACs ? What happens with the regular parts (which would probably be 90% of those incoming) ? Would they end up in the trash bin ? In DAC IV days, they could at least re-use the rest in the Diamond. What about the extra costs associated ? How sth that used to cost $33 last year, could be given free of charge now ?

How they can offer DAC IV Diamond to DAC V Diamond upgrade for only $7k, and include new box and new hand picked Diamond DACs ? Anyone who ever upgraded from Signature to Diamond knows that the DAC modules itself (regular Diamond, not Diamond Select !) cost double that ! And what about a new box ? What about the 'new technology' ? Where is the dealer markup in all this ?

As I said - it all doesn't make any sense.

 

[edorr]

This is sth that doesn't make sense to me.

I can understand parts selection. Afterall, in real life, components never measure the same (be it capacitors, transistors or even resistors), so within the very same components batch, there always will be comonenst that measure slightly better, and slightly worse.

If you are a manufacturer, you can hand pick those that measure best and put them on a side for your 'super project'. This is what Philips was doing for years with their 1541 chips, which came as a regular, Crown and Double Crown variants (the last one never comercially sold AFAIK). The hand-picking process is always very pricey, as it is very labour intensive, so the $32k extra MSB was charging for their 2014 DAC IV Select over a regular DAC IV Diamond ($75-$43=$32), made sense. The best parts went to the Select, those slightly worse to the Diamond. MSB DAC IV Select was their 'super project' with very high price tag and very limited supply (due to the rarity of 'super parts').

This is very common practice in racing car engines selection. Some competitions prescribe standard parts/engines. There is always a bit of variance standard between parts/engines. The handpicked statistical outliers are worth a fortune because a few extra HP can be the difference between winning and losing in car racing.

They are now claiming, that the new DAC V Diamond will employ all the elements of the 2014 MSB Select DAC plus some extra technology recently developed.

So is safe to assume, it will also employ those 'super parts'. But how they can put those 'super parts' in ALL of their DACs ? What happens with the regular parts (which would probably be 90% of those incoming) ? Would they end up in the trash bin ? In DAC IV days, they could at least re-use the rest in the Diamond. What about the extra costs associated ? How sth that used to cost $33 last year, could be given free of charge now ?

How they can offer DAC IV Diamond to DAC V Diamond upgrade for only $7k, and include new box and new hand picked Diamond DACs ? Anyone who ever upgraded from Signature to Diamond knows that the DAC modules itself (regular Diamond, not Diamond Select !) cost double that ! And what about a new box ? What about the 'new technology' ? Where is the dealer markup in all this ?

As I said - it all doesn't make any sense.

The whole thing has written "marketing ploy" written all over it. I seriously doubt there is much new technology in the V. It may be backfiring in the US, but this may be compensated by the extra stuff they sell in their no doubt higher growth Asian market.

 

[Priaptor]

This is sth that doesn't make sense to me.

I can understand parts selection. Afterall, in real life, components never measure the same (be it capacitors, transistors or even resistors), so within the very same components batch, there always will be comonenst that measure slightly better, and slightly worse.

If you are a manufacturer, you can hand pick those that measure best and put them on a side for your 'super project'. This is what Philips was doing for years with their 1541 chips, which came as a regular, Crown and Double Crown variants (the last one never comercially sold AFAIK). The hand-picking process is always very pricey, as it is very labour intensive, so the $32k extra MSB was charging for their 2014 DAC IV Select over a regular DAC IV Diamond ($75-$43=$32), made sense. The best parts went to the Select, those slightly worse to the Diamond. MSB DAC IV Select was their 'super project' with very high price tag and very limited supply (due to the rarity of 'super parts').

They are now claiming, that the new DAC V Diamond will employ all the elements of the 2014 MSB Select DAC plus some extra technology recently developed.

So is safe to assume, it will also employ those 'super parts'. But how they can put those 'super parts' in ALL of their DACs ? What happens with the regular parts (which would probably be 90% of those incoming) ? Would they end up in the trash bin ? In DAC IV days, they could at least re-use the rest in the Diamond. What about the extra costs associated ? How sth that used to cost $33 last year, could be given free of charge now ?

How they can offer DAC IV Diamond to DAC V Diamond upgrade for only $7k, and include new box and new hand picked Diamond DACs ? Anyone who ever upgraded from Signature to Diamond knows that the DAC modules itself (regular Diamond, not Diamond Select !) cost double that ! And what about a new box ? What about the 'new technology' ? Where is the dealer markup in all this ?

As I said - it all doesn't make any sense.

YUP, I couldn't agree more. I sent a long missive to the people at MSB as well as verbally with Vince to express my opinion when they were first starting this inane program.

So the guy who "ONLY" paid 43K for a DAC, doesn't get hand selected, critically tested parts?? He/She gets the MSB garbage while the "good stuff" goes into the 80K "Select" DAC. That is how many us interpreted the initial release, which prompted them to add the new secret stuff nonsense to give some added value in addition which I don't but for a second.

As I have said before and will say again, to provide an "non-obsolescence" pathway is a laudable project in this day and age in the high end but the way they did makes absolutely no sense and as ABlazer points out is a rip off. To have to pay 45K more upfront and still have to pay the difference between retail price on the new models and the old model after just one year is absolutely ABSURD to say the least.

And as others have said, I wonder just how much difference there is between a IV and V. IF this company can claim "differences" between the IV and "Select" with nonsense like "handpicked" parts, factory burn in and a few "secrets" added for an extra 45K then one has to question their claims for anything new before shelling any more cash to the same company.

Unfortunately, MSB is not alone in this.

 

[audioblazer]

Anybody want the best Select 2015 , discounted further to USD50k , seriously