NORTH AMERICAN PUBLIC DEBUT OF TECHDAS AIR FORCE ZERO AND WILSON AUDIO MASTER CHRONOSONIC/SUBSONIC
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
When played with Graham. It was gobsmacking. When played with SAT. It was also gobsmacking. We are just so damn picky when there is a chance to choose. The fact is it is not somuch difference. And with that difference we still say either one is gobsmacking.
We audiophiles are just crazy paying so much more for tiny difference that only known by the owner who buy. Visitors who come by think both are gobsmacking anyway. Took me a lot of money to realize this and change the buying approach. Go for big fish not small fish.
The experienced ones just smiled at me and said thats what it took for them the learn too. Hehe.
Tang
I scratched my head when I read that they are using such a motor.
But if the designer thinks it sound better, it's his product not mine.
I guess the combination of very high mass platter and a belt make the micro fluctuations that such a motor will have insignificant. I once talked to the designer of the Continuum Caliburn and they were using a coreless/slotless motor (but not direct drive) with a very sophisticated controller. He told me that it cost them $8K just for that motor/controller! That was a $100K TT and with such an expensive motor system I could then start to understand why it was so expensive. This AF0 at $400K, and with such a cheap drive system, starts to scream to me "audio jewelry" rather than a serious attempt on SOTA performance. However, if such a motor sounds better than what else is currently out there, so be it, but it is a rather surprising outcome to say the least.
why do you believe, that this is a "cheap drive system"?
To my knowledge this drive system is currently the only system in current production with air bearing and air suspension, based on the old Micro Seiki SZ-1 drive system. Such an air bearing & air suspension system is not easy- and not cheap to realize.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
is it just me or do others get the feeling that of all the naysayers or critics of the AF Zero, none of them have heard it.
To say Nishikawa San is using a cheap motor for his turntable IMO serves no purpose. I would say that there is a very good reason why both ddk and Nishikawa used the same motor in their turntable. I was told that this older motor is so good that to design a better one for these small (but expensive)projects would be cost prohibitive
Let me ask this of all you naysayers....is there one naysayer amongst you who has heard the AF Zero? If so it would be helpful for me to know why rather than naysayers from a distance making comments about something they haven't even heard
To say Nishikawa San is using a cheap motor for his turntable IMO serves no purpose. I would say that there is a very good reason why both ddk and Nishikawa used the same motor in their turntable. I was told that this older motor is so good that to design a better one for these small (but expensive)projects would be cost prohibitive
Let me ask this of all you naysayers....is there one naysayer amongst you who has heard the AF Zero? If so it would be helpful for me to know why rather than naysayers from a distance making comments about something they haven't even heard
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
why do Sunday arm chair quarterbacks who have never thrown a pass or played a game feel that when it comes to turntable design they know more than a man who has spent his entire life designing and making turntables
Happy 9th anniversary to starting the biggest Sunday forum for quarterback experts Steve
I don't think being critical of design is really that big a deal. And when you charge $400,000 for it, should be a natural consideration especially with the forum's interest (and excitement) in the AS-2000 and other high priced TTs.
None of this belies any listening to the unit - but with only 50 of them being made, and 90% probably going to Asia - most of us will never even get the opportunity.
That's the entire point for me - its a wasted opportunity by a famous designer to advance the high end.
I absolutely don't agree that most of the 50 going to Asia = wasted!!!
What kind of reasoning is that!?
What kind of reasoning is that!?
I think once the price was set at $400k the opportunity to hear this was reduced no matter where. Highest end Asian systems are no less accessible than western ones. I doubt these tt’s will sit lonely in a room not played. Only that non-English speaking forums are not familiar to us here. The high end Asian community might even provide more access to this top level, not less.
I’m glad the means and desire exists to support products like this.
The positives in all of this is that TT designers can learn more into implementing those attributes of the Zero to less expensive TTs and larger audience of young vinyphiles with lesser means (bank account statements), and still benefit to higher grounds.
What a beauty she is ... Air Force Zero.
Nice report Ron, keep it up.
What a beauty she is ... Air Force Zero.
Nice report Ron, keep it up.
Since long we know there is not such thing as "better motor" in this segment. The designer just choose a high quality motor with characteristics that contributed to the sound signature he wants for his turntable.
There is a lot more in the drive system than just the basic rotor and stator - I could see that this system also has an air bearing.
The motor is what determines the ultimate, moment by moment, speed stability and while the bearing and vibrations etc. are important, IMO they are not more important than the actual motor drive. I also don't agree that it is a done deal that there is no "better" in motors...even for turntables. Maybe, as I said, it doesn't matter much when the platter is so heavy...maybe.
In defense of Keith's statement, many of the people that are on this forum and will not get a chance to hear this table. Combined with the interesting fact that holding a few exclusive, invite only listening sessions in the United States just to get US based reviewers to endorse the table for the Asian consumers is a strange practice.
The fact is the highend market is being supported by the Asian customers, they have the means and the will to purchase many of the statement pieces being made by the manufacturers. I have no issue with that, I just need to book my trip to Hong Kong or Thailand to hear the big stuff!
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
IMHO everything matters in the extreme high-end concerning turntables. It is just an opinion, but I think that even in very heavy platters motors matter. And that the experienced Air Force Zero designer picked what he felt to be the best sounding motor for his design.
Don't forget Manila. We can go together
Can we ask you to carry a HiRez digital recorder with you and record a few tracks for long time WBF posters?
Mike, I understand the desire to support these products as SOTA and pressing the envelope- unfortunately I also believe the focus on these types of products basically has led to a much smaller, less diverse hifi community.
As @213Cobra said more eloquently on the Zu thread:
"The most vibrant audiophile community in many parts of the world, and certainly here in the US, is the head-fi movement. High end hifi continues to make itself ever-less-relevant by taking the lazy path of selling goods to a very wealthy few, at very high average unit prices, instead of actually doing the work of creating a constituency for accessible products built to a high standard, that the great middle can afford and imagine being interested in."
While you and Phil grew up in the 70s and I did not, what i've heard is that it was a far more accessible time for hifi. That even spread into the 90s when I began my audiophile journey and Sony, Citation, Proceed, Pioneer, and others (Cary, CJ, Audio Physic, Triangle, etc at the smaller end size hifi) were making unbelievable product for the middle $ (SCD-1 anyone?). There weren't $10k cables, $15k cartridges, $250k amps, and $400k TTs. In fact, I heard HPs "Super System" in 2001 at the Stereophile show - and that system cost far less than $500k (it also sucked, as most in the room agreed) but perhaps it kicked off the chase for uber hifi.
As far as the Zero, I was also alluding to the fact there is a much bigger analog presence in Asia than the US and that this product was clearly designed for Asian buyers, yes, including the price. While the forum loves to chat about analog, it just isn't that big as digital here. I'm sure MSB will sell many more Reference and Select dacs here than Techdas at any price point?
One of the things I thought the vinyl resurgence would bring about is millennial analog systems - but from dealers I've talked to, that just hasn't been the case. They mostly buy TTs on amazon for $299. As a result, analog manufacturers shift to the uber high end only continues chasing far fewer, mostly Boomer audiophiles.
Anyways, just my 2 cents and i could be wrong
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