Paul McGowan Prefers Digital

[Elliot G.]

Ron,
I really don't care what you decide to buy or listen too as that is your personal preference . I do however think you are way out of touch. Famous Blue Raincoat may be your favorite CD but TRUST me it is not t CD Nirvana. In fact my friends , one with a full dCS set up with 10 mhz clock, another with MSB select 2 and me with a CH C1.1 Mono with clock and 3 X-1 power supply would argue that much of the best sound we achieve is with Redbook. I have hundreds of items on my playlist of all sorts of music and I don't even bother to see how it was recorded since I don't care. Its the music I love not the analog/digital/tube/transistor stuff. You may not mean to come off as a snob but you certainly do. In fact it is really hard for me to take any of your stuff seriously when you don't have any real current digital experience. There are many here and all over the world that don't buy that analog is great and digital is crap. They don't buy that tubnes are great and SS is crap and to be honest are tired of the judgmental and condescending thought process. Its F-ing BORING and too many insulting and just plain wrong.
You can like what you like , enjoy it but you are WAY out of touch on the digital scene. Streaming from Spotify ? not it man trust me!!! I don't speak for Mr. PS or anyone else but I find the same BS boring and totally uniformed. IMHO you might want to consider your own personal BIAS as just that it is what you like.
The same thing has happened to JV for example. No matter what he says about digital it is not in context. He has no context since he has not heard the current state of the art nor has a music collection in digital to listen too. Just comparing a CD to an LP on a few boring old discs is not what MUSIC is about its what gear worship is!
I don't do analog anymore. I said that. Its not because its no good or I don't think it can't sound great. It just doesn't work for me in so many ways. Forget the convenience or easy to use and store but the biggest and most important item is I have almost no ability to find more music I want to listen too. I can't audition LPS even if I could find them and I am not interested in crawling around in record stores. That's not my idea of a fun day. I listen every day and have 8tb of music on my server, That's so much I have no idea what it actually there . I have two streaming services so I can find new things or old things I don't have and for those of you who haven't tried Qobuz its damn good.
So I guess my point is that if you don't have something new to add to the dialogue why are casting a juandiced eye at Paul for expressing what he believes to be true and having the balls to admit it?
One last thin I have been exploring a lot of my old stuff like Chicago, Santana, Richie Havens etc. that I had the records for and they NEVER sounded like what I have now when I had a turntable. I wonder if I could even find the records now if i was to buy a CH Phono stage and X-1 power supply and a top end turntable, arm , cartridge, cable and start screwing with all the things to make each record sound good.
You sound like a man older than me arguing that a 4 speed is so much better than a current automatic transmission and just won't accept that progress happens even when YOU believe the other way was better.
Enjoy your choice as I , Paul and many others have as well.

 

[microstrip]

sigh. long sigh. grimace.

it seems we continue the dance.

just my opinion; it's not relevant whether an argument can be made that digital is technically superior. not saying it is, as i leave the technical arguments to you.



i have many large scale modern digital recordings with the highest resolutions, and appropriate gear to hear them on. i don't share your comparative viewpoint.

but....to my point above that you quoted.....i love these digital classical digital recordings and they make up over 50% of my listening time. all is good with digital......but.....let's just stay away from the whole 'better than xxx' or 'prefer it to xxx'.....and all is well.

i agree with what you quoted from Mr. Fremer, and even that the software keeps getting better. but so does the vinyl.

Yes, the dance never ends, it is a matter of preference ...

Our comparative items are different. For example I have many LP recordings of Jordi Savall and none of them approaches the sound quality and complexity of his late recordings such as Dinastia Borgia or Les Routes de l'Esclavage. As explained by his usual sound engineer, such recordings would not be possible in analog. BTW, I am mostly addressing the complexity, not exactly the large scale.

 

[microstrip]

Fremer in another report, not Aida, said that he preferred that recording on vinyl rather than digital due to the miking used for either being different.

I agree about recordings, the best LPs were the ones produced for the golden era and are meant to be played back on vinyl and that's where the real superiority comes from. Except for some extremely few select later era represses of LPs, the LPs that a normal audiophile picks up in a charity shop or on discogs without understanding pressings, is not necessarily going to beat digital. In fact then depending on the recording you play either format can go either way, irrespective of the gear you have. What most of the knowledgable audiophiles who do not have access to the money and the LP stock of people like the General do is to get some reissues of Classic Records and speakers corner, and a few other good pressings like Harmonia Mundi etc. These can sound better than good digital when the equipment is extremely well set up by a seasoned analogphile but good digital recordings can sound very good anyway.

The problem with hirez digital from these new sites that have come up is very few are good performances. Both Bill and I never got into most of the stuff that sites like Channel Classics or FIM have on their digital. This is where analog is clearly superior, excellent performances on excellent recordings from the golden era, and this is true for classical, blues, jazz, rock. However, digital has some great recordings, especially safety master rips of some of these performances, and the access to music is far higher. It is not easy to get the dynamic range and gain and drive of digital unless the whole analog system is extremely well matched, and this is why you see a lot of analogphiles with horns and the other way, because the dynamic range and gain and drive with analog in these systems is easier to get in others it is more difficult.

Could you point me a link to Fremer other opinion? I

But again you mix your musical preference with sound quality arguments in a long post. You love mostly vintage and you are not alone, I respect your point. But I am not interested in addressing musical preferences, just the sound quality of the formats.

 

[RogerD]

I’ll take the bass of digital any day. A Living Stereo analog to digital transfer. I think Paul McGowan preferred digital bass also.

 

[bonzo75]

Could you point me a link to Fremer other opinion? I

But again you mix your musical preference with sound quality arguments in a long post. You love mostly vintage and you are not alone, I respect your point. But I am not interested in addressing musical preferences, just the sound quality of the formats.

Mostly vintage performances, you mean

 

[spiritofmusic]

Elliott, I have double the disadvantage Ron has.
Natural proclivity for analog over digital.
AND a lifelong developed aversion to using computers for anything.
Despite being hampered many times over, I've made the big decision next year to jump to streaming.
For me, that's money I could easily spend on vinyl, or the chapel (or a car, suits, holidays etc).
But I realise I'm missing out otherwise on a whole Multiverse of music, and I just need to shut my eyes and dive into the cold water.

Of course, now the OCD starts.

 

[microstrip]

Mostly vintage performances, you mean

Yes, vintage performances.

 

[analogsa]

For example I have many LP recordings of Jordi Savall and none of them approaches the sound quality and complexity of his late recordings.

I only have a few of Saval's LPs and they are nothing special compared to his recent digital stuff, some of which is extraordinary. Won't be buying more. Thanks.

 

[sbo6]

Mike and Ked touched on something that I think is worth fleshing out - the quality of high quality source material which can play a role in deciding if vinyl or digital is "better". But I think there's a second piece that's been somewhat omitted - the mechanical and electrical conversion process and required SW + HW to replay the original event. For the moment, excluding the differences in format noise, freq. range and dynamic range - it is my opinion that with vinyl / analog the process is simpler (think gramophone) with less margin for error other than the RIAA process versus digital which requires conversion of an analog signal to the digital domain and back to analog at the DAC. As such, it has only been very recently that both the digital recording process and digital playback devices have achieved higher quality commensurate with moderate - high end analog. And as I've said more than once digital $ for $ (assuming parity recording quality material which is almost impossible) yields better quality. Net is - 1) There will alway be a plethora of high quality analog recordings unavailable or sonically sub - par on digital that will draw many to vinyl (admittedly it sounds stellar). 2) We will continue to see the upwards slope of $ sonic value with digital moreso than analog, however, due to the simplicity of the analog chain digital will likely never match the sonic greatness of ultra - high end analog setups. My 2.5 pesos..

 

[Al M.]

NS, it's a CDP and it's French. Maybe that's two sins too many LOL.

It may interest some, but streaming is not all powerful. In mainland Europe, esp France, Germany, Belgium and Holland, and of course Japan, cds still sell, and cdp's are in great demand.

Hence brands like Eera exist, offering cdp's, transports, as well as dacs.

Yeah, my Simaudio Moon CD transport is shipped from Canada to Europe by the pallets, the U.S. not so much. Around the more or less US centric WBF I am viewed as somewhat of a dinosaur, but spinning CDs is normal around the world.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,
I really don't care what you decide to buy or listen too as that is your personal preference . I do however think you are way out of touch. Famous Blue Raincoat may be your favorite CD but TRUST me it is not t CD Nirvana. In fact my friends , one with a full dCS set up with 10 mhz clock, another with MSB select 2 and me with a CH C1.1 Mono with clock and 3 X-1 power supply would argue that much of the best sound we achieve is with Redbook. I have hundreds of items on my playlist of all sorts of music and I don't even bother to see how it was recorded since I don't care. Its the music I love not the analog/digital/tube/transistor stuff. You may not mean to come off as a snob but you certainly do. In fact it is really hard for me to take any of your stuff seriously when you don't have any real current digital experience. There are many here and all over the world that don't buy that analog is great and digital is crap. They don't buy that tubnes are great and SS is crap and to be honest are tired of the judgmental and condescending thought process. Its F-ing BORING and too many insulting and just plain wrong.
You can like what you like , enjoy it but you are WAY out of touch on the digital scene. Streaming from Spotify ? not it man trust me!!! I don't speak for Mr. PS or anyone else but I find the same BS boring and totally uniformed. IMHO you might want to consider your own personal BIAS as just that it is what you like.
The same thing has happened to JV for example. No matter what he says about digital it is not in context. He has no context since he has not heard the current state of the art nor has a music collection in digital to listen too. Just comparing a CD to an LP on a few boring old discs is not what MUSIC is about its what gear worship is!
I don't do analog anymore. I said that. Its not because its no good or I don't think it can't sound great. It just doesn't work for me in so many ways. Forget the convenience or easy to use and store but the biggest and most important item is I have almost no ability to find more music I want to listen too. I can't audition LPS even if I could find them and I am not interested in crawling around in record stores. That's not my idea of a fun day. I listen every day and have 8tb of music on my server, That's so much I have no idea what it actually there . I have two streaming services so I can find new things or old things I don't have and for those of you who haven't tried Qobuz its damn good.
So I guess my point is that if you don't have something new to add to the dialogue why are casting a juandiced eye at Paul for expressing what he believes to be true and having the balls to admit it?
One last thin I have been exploring a lot of my old stuff like Chicago, Santana, Richie Havens etc. that I had the records for and they NEVER sounded like what I have now when I had a turntable. I wonder if I could even find the records now if i was to buy a CH Phono stage and X-1 power supply and a top end turntable, arm , cartridge, cable and start screwing with all the things to make each record sound good.
You sound like a man older than me arguing that a 4 speed is so much better than a current automatic transmission and just won't accept that progress happens even when YOU believe the other way was better.
Enjoy your choice as I , Paul and many others have as well.

Dear Elliot,

How is reporting that I can enjoy listening to digital recordings through MSB DACs “way out of touch”?

Your whole paragraph on dCS and MSB and redbook CD is irrelevant to anything I have posted about on this thread. Where have I been opining on redbook versus high resolution formats?

Please cite the post in which I demand that you select your music basic on how it was recorded.

Please cite the post in which I tout my digital experience. In fact, I have posted both here and in various published visit reports very explicitly that I do not consider myself qualified to opine on digital components. The only opinion on any digital component I have ever posted is the presumably non-controversial “I can enjoy listening to digital recordings through MSB DACs.”

Please cite the post in which I assert that “digital is crap” and that “solid-state is crap.”

What is wrong with appreciating the convenience of Spotify? It is an incredibly easy and comprehensive way to have both your favorite music and new music with you literally everywhere you go: in your pocket, in your car and in your home.

We all have personal biases. My bias to to prefer the sound quality of playing analog recordings on analog playback systems. Is there a 411 here that I am missing?

I am highly critical of JV’s long term equipment loan review practices, but I am flattered you are putting him and me in the same paragraph.

Please cite the post in which I launch against you a diatribe because you “don’t do analog anymore.” In fact, I have posted that I totally understand digital’s convenience and practicality, as well as the obvious importance of digital for music that is not released on vinyl or tape.

As Kedar has correctly chronicled, there are several different hobbies subsumed within high-end audio. One of those sub-hobbies is enjoying auditioning components. Please tell us what is wrong with enjoying analog components.

Please cite the post in which I admonish you for not using analog components or because analog “does not work” for you.

I am glad you like Oobuz. I enjoy using Spotify for finding new music or old music I don’t have.

I don’t understand your inapposite and ageist attack on my automotive transmission preferences. I enjoy a six-speed transmission for my sports car, and I enjoy automatic transmissions for the daily driver cars.

I also don’t understand your “one last thing” paragraph. You are reporting to us an imagined comparison of your aural memory of vinyl records from ages ago on a modest vinyl playback system to your hypothetical and imagined sonic impressions of those same records played on a modern high-end vinyl playback system with CH Precison electronics, and then concluding that the latter is not as good as you would imagine them to sound on your present digital playback system?

 

[dan31]

Recording in DSD to vinyl. Glad I grabbed this when I had the chance.

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/modern-beethoven-cycle-cut-analogue-tape-0

 

[the sound of Tao]

PS: I have no idea what it means to be “pissed in the true British sense.” I thought the stereotype of English people, at least, is that they remain calm and unflustered.

Ron,
Pissed in the true British sense is drinking warm beer whereas pissed in the true Australian sense is drinking cold beer... these things are obviously a world apart!

That’s why we did Austrexit sometime shortly after WW2

 

[christoph]

You are most welcome, i have both overhere.
And some analog ;-)

Which msb DAC do you (still?) have?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron,
Pissed in the true British sense is drinking warm beer whereas pissed in the true Australian sense is drinking cold beer... these things are obviously a world apart!

That’s why we did Austrexit sometime shortly after WW2

Tao, there are audiophile style arguments to be had
"Warm beer, is that the same as 'not cold beer?' "
"Cold beer - sharp and refreshing, but can it also be smooth and full flavoured?"
And on.

 

[tima]

I agree about recordings, the best LPs were the ones produced for the golden era and are meant to be played back on vinyl and that's where the real superiority comes from.

This is a excellent point, imo.

The 'music business' has altered radically from the day when the classcal conductor was paid like a rock star and there was a strong European influence among conductors and musicians who survived WWII and got scooped up by cities/orchestras who had the resources to build best of breed orchestras. Recording companies held on to their best producers and engineers and went out of their way to improve their equipment.

The business was substantial and there was no less desire for big bucks than today, and certain conductors were also out for immortality (in the wake of Furtwangler, Walter, etc.) but ... it seems ... overalll ... that in that golden era the music mattered more and the product reflected that. Maybe not that way to musicians of our time - there will always be dedication - but then, to the businessmen and producers - they knew they were doing something special and they were coming out of a strong tradition and some were felt bound to up hold that - they took the care with their product. Their tangible product was made to be played on equipment they themselves promoted it to be played on. They had the luxury of singularity of focus.

Nowadays ... well ... you wanna play Channel Classics / Ivan Fischer's latest Mahler 7th, here's your choices:

 

[the sound of Tao]

Tao, there are audiophile style arguments to be had
"Warm beer, is that the same as 'not cold beer?' "
"Cold beer - sharp and refreshing, but can it also be smooth and full flavoured?"
And on.

Marc... for some maybe but if you were pissed in either the true British or the true Aussie sense it might actually go something more like this... aaaargh beeeeer... and so on.

I have people in my family who have run micro brewerys, made many a craft beer and I was raised in a pub on the NSW coast here in a significantly beautiful wine growing region and for all the very best intentions eventually when someone has their beer goggles on the discourse ends up pretty much the same... aaaaargh beeeeer

True beer aficionados only think they can talk and think like audiophiles while they are still sober!

 

[bonzo75]

This is a excellent point, imo.

The 'music business' has altered radically from the day when the classcal conductor was paid like a rock star and there was a strong European influence among conductors and musicians who survived WWII and got scooped up by cities/orchestras who had the resources to build best of breed orchestras. Recording companies held on to their best producers and engineers and went out of their way to improve their equipment.

The business was substantial and there was no less desire for big bucks than today, and certain conductors were also out for immortality (in the wake of Furtwangler, Walter, etc.) but ... it seems ... overalll ... that in that golden era the music mattered more and the product reflected that. Maybe not that way to musicians of our time - there will always be dedication - but then, to the businessmen and producers - they knew they were doing something special and they were coming out of a strong tradition and some were felt bound to up hold that - they took the care with their product. Their tangible product was made to be played on equipment they themselves promoted it to be played on. They had the luxury of singularity of focus.

Nowadays ... well ... you wanna play Channel Classics / Ivan Fischer's latest Mahler 7th, here's your choices:

View attachment 49297

I do like his Mahler 2, never tried his 7. I love Mahler 3 and 7 somehow they are less popular. The brass in 7 is superlative

 

[audioquattr]

Which msb DAC do you (still?) have?

MSB Dac V Diamond, with upgraded galaxy clock etc. I prefer the Pacific.
I use the MSB in 2nd system.

 

[bonzo75]

MSB Dac V Diamond, with upgraded galaxy clock etc. I prefer the Pacific.
I use the MSB in 2nd system.

Wait till you hear my GG . I can trade it with you for the Pacific retail plus the records you are buying, then I will ask Lukasz to build me another one the same