Paul McGowan Prefers Digital

[bonzo75]

So the question for me becomes understanding what nourishes you as an audiophile and a music lover and that every person’s different approach in these has validity for them.

So you get a buzz from the act of owning physical media makes complete sense to me but this is not the only nourishment that can be had out of the process.

For some of us the amazing journey that discovering an almost boundless journey to the near infinite sea of possibilities when say you just simply type in the words Shostakovich cello concerto No. 1 and this wealth of passion and musical commitment from the various peaks on the mountain range appear... Rostropovich, Mravinsky, Kondrashin... there is an ocean of greatness there to dive into...

So you realise that you had forgotten about the Emmanuel Bertrand performance and so dive into to savour again those four extraordinary opening notes penned by Dmitri Shostakovich and relive again all the invention and genius, and share in the emotional tension of a life lived in repression and struggle with the demons without and his demons within. This is not a bloodless journey Marc. The music is also the blood.

So whatever nourishes is in this journey is deeply valid for each of us. There are things to savour in the rituals, in our overcoming the technical and mechanical struggles, to answering the maze of puzzles in the many great pathways to refinement, to approach the very mountain and the ocean of the musicians and the music and us... who we are, what we feel, how we connect.

I never make light of anyone else’s journey because these are not silly outcomes, these are rich, and valuable and culturally extraordinary riches, in the experience of music there is a potential connection to the most sacred of elements in life, who people are, how they express their life’s journey, what they discover along the way.

This all can be found via the humble shiny silver disc, or the black gold of alchemy within vinyl, on the boundless world wide inter web or just with some simple ear buds and YouTube... when I backpacked across Europe in the 80’s I left my IMF RSPM IVs transmission lines and SOTA sapphire at home and bought a Sony Walkman and spent a year going to the great music halls of the old world, engaging in music with ear buds and live, going to jazz clubs and raves, partying at night, enjoying music in the villages in the day and evening and via earbuds on the scenic train journeys and I left the relative safety of my sound system and let go.

Music is the core theme and how you get there is just up to you. When you get there via any path you realise that there is nothing bloodless about any of these journeys at all if they actually lead you to what truly nourishes you. We must focus on what works for you and if you choose let go of the safe places... take on streaming as well and enjoy and if not it just doesn’t mean it’s less valid than any other of your chosen paths but rather just not for you now. If you can’t enjoy then then no loss as you already enjoy what you have. But no need to question the validity of this way for others. Because I am not on your pathway does not mean that I am lost. Each and every journey is potentially absolutely as deep and meaningful and completely valid as any. No body really has to justify to anyone else why their life experiences have value and meaning and how there experiences coukd in any way be less essential or somehow deemed bloodless because you have not yet found the blood contained within.

The blood for me is in the music and the musician and my experience of them, the way I connect is not necessarily the point of my journey.

Every person's approach is valid. The issue is many don't admit to themselves what their approach is, and claim (to themselves and others) it is something else. When this conflict happens, it creates issues. Also, while chatting on the forum, it should be about the approach related to the context (what's best hifi gear, etc)

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Every person's approach is valid. The issue is many don't admit to themselves what their approach is, and claim (to themselves and others) it is something else. When this conflict happens, it creates issues. Also, while chatting on the forum, it should be about the approach related to the context (what's best hifi gear, etc)

i find that sometimes we approach new music from the outside in, and other times from the inside out.

what i mean is that we sometimes either see music advertised, or talked about, or someone mentions it so we try it. or maybe we are actively investigating alternate artists to one's we like. we are active from the outside to hear this.

other times we are just enjoying music and the process brings us into contact with related music and if it's easy to try it we do, and we get exposed from the inside of our experience, and this is an even more organic way to expand our horizons. this approach is also somewhat dependent on our systems ability to allow the music to be sonic-ally accessible (the higher performance of our system, the more agile it is in communicating the musical essence of unfamiliar tunes).

my time with Roon and Tidal is more valuable as my system and digital playback sounds better. easier to navigate for the inside exposure to new music. i'm not always in the mood for exploring, and will put together a play list and just go, but having the choices always right there is a good thing.

this is a huge advantage over silver discs, to my way of thinking.

if acquiring new music or expanding our musical horizons is not a priority, that is fine too. no right or wrong about it.

 

[NorthStar]

Me I think Paul McGowan's musical repdoduction approach is valid. ...Point.
I think everyone's own music listening approach is valid.
I think we are all the best among the best and the lesser best.
I think we are all beautiful people who love music from all valid approach.
I think we should celebrate life every single day with our loved ones by dancing to the rhythm of music...Tango, Calypso, Gitane and Flamenco.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Every person's approach is valid. The issue is many don't admit to themselves what their approach is, and claim (to themselves and others) it is something else. When this conflict happens, it creates issues. Also, while chatting on the forum, it should be about the approach related to the context (what's best hifi gear, etc)

Your approach is completely individual Ked and that is what I love about it. I’m not even sure that you will need to buy a stereo to complete your journey, you are on an adventure and that is so you and that is what makes it rich and fun and valid.

So very different to Marc’s journey or Tangs, or Jacks or Als or Peters or Rons or Audioquattrs or Tims or Bills or (please dear reader add your name to the list) and add lives and discoveries ad near infinitum an excellent litany of tales and people and diversity of human experiences shared here. And all equally valid. How can it be anything else. Sometimes it is about the gear, sometimes it is about the music, always it is about experiences and people.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But Mike, you would never swap yr vinyl for Tidal/Roon. So the proven advantages of streaming dont trump vinyl for SQ and thus vinyl remains relevant, even though vinyl and cds have the same disadvantages re finding music.

The only conclusion to be drawn is that cd has no, or negligible, advantages SQ wise over streaming at the SGM level, and thus with a whole world of digital music in yr lap, there are no good reasons in 2019 to stick w cd.

I know this is going over well worn ground, but there is still a hardcore that vote cdp or transport/dac beats server.

 

[tima]

For the second, I could tell you the record I like, but only after I buy it. It was recorded without using an EQ curve

Ah, come on. Temirkanov did a 6th w/out eq on ... I think it was Water Lilly label. Is yours LP?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tao, my two decades' journey is about to hit it's major fork in the road w the decision to go streaming. My own proclivity is to have this as an addendum to physical media, I just need to ensure I get a solution that
1- keeps me looking for music ie Roon, and
2- isn't embarassed by my well optimised tt and cdp ie plenty of natural tone and timbre etc please.
I've had a good dress rehearsal w regular visits to Blue58 and his SGM-based system, he's almost got me over the line.

 

[tima]

@tima - sorry for the delay

in addition to Trentemoller, for good electronica I listen to Air, Massive Attack, Aphex Twin, St Germain, Comtruise, Rival Consoles, Leifur James, K&D, Nils Frahm, Olafur Arnauds, and the list goes on and on. what you might find is the way its music is designed that a *lot of stuff* is typically going on at once, uses creative phase and recording techniques with different sounds coming out of various spaces (unlike an orchestra where you pretty much know that upfront), and requires significant frequency range. the result of good electronica is very enveloping music. Most of it is well recorded as well.

Also you might note that even DG now has certain electronica artists on its label.

Check out John Darkos significant posts on the subject:

https://darko.audio/2018/02/electronica-for-audiophiles-part-8-ignoreland/

Thanks for that, Keith, much appreciated. Most names I do not know, but I'll try some. I do have an Aphex Twin album still sealed - not sure why I bought it, but now I'll play it.

DG had Stockhausen under contract. ;-)

 

[asiufy]

But Mike, you would never swap yr vinyl for Tidal/Roon. So the proven advantages of streaming dont trump vinyl for SQ and thus vinyl remains relevant, even though vinyl and cds have the same disadvantages re finding music.

The only conclusion to be drawn is that cd has no, or negligible, advantages SQ wise over streaming at the SGM level, and thus with a whole world of digital music in yr lap, there are no good reasons in 2019 to stick w cd.

I know this is going over well worn ground, but there is still a hardcore that vote cdp or transport/dac beats server.

Why does one format has to "win" and the other to "lose"? Why one must SWAP one for the other, and not ADD?

I've always advocated for streaming, but NOT as a be-all, end-all solution. More like a fun, different experience to the usual ritual involved in playing physical media, which, of course, is a lot of fun and fulfilling too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Alex, we totally agree, sorry if I came across contrary.
I have spent my whole life avoiding computer interaction of any kind.
Ironic, as a bit of a grumpy old sod, I've chosen my major passionate hobby to be a solitary, sedentary one, also shared by computer-centrics.
So, at my late stage to have to consider Tablet control of music doesn't sit naturally w me.
But I realise that's me, and I can't for much longer do my King Cnute impersonation.

And yes Alex, I'll go into this w enthusiasm to discover all those prog gems I'd forgotten about or never knew existed.

I just don't want FOGI Fear Of Getting Involved, to be replaced by FOMO, spending more time looking for music online than listening to it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Btw, are all you streaming guys also dumping yr Blu Rays and 4K discs?
No joy in collecting Criterion Blus?
Indeed, when SACD came out in 2000, my dream was for Criterion-type collectable uber packaged music. I was horrified when the whole Napster/Metallica thing broke, and the start of the decline of physical media.

I don't get why Criterion and other quality Blu Ray disc markets can exist, but not in music.

 

[Al M.]

DG had Stockhausen under contract. ;-)

Possibly the greatest electronic composer; not coincidentally, also one of the greatest composers of the 20th century.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

But Mike, you would never swap yr vinyl for Tidal/Roon. So the proven advantages of streaming dont trump vinyl for SQ and thus vinyl remains relevant, even though vinyl and cds have the same disadvantages re finding music.

The only conclusion to be drawn is that cd has no, or negligible, advantages SQ wise over streaming at the SGM level, and thus with a whole world of digital music in yr lap, there are no good reasons in 2019 to stick w cd.

I know this is going over well worn ground, but there is still a hardcore that vote cdp or transport/dac beats server.

i already vote with my time allocation 60-75% with digital. that's not based on SQ preference, but on life style and music access. i made the commitment to get my digital to the SQ point where that level of time commitment makes me happy.

so i have a world wide music selection, with excellent SQ, and world class ease of use. i come home and know if i'm not in the analog mood i'm still going to enjoy my music.

be happy. if that is with discs then have at it. no judgement from me.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Tao, my two decades' journey is about to hit it's major fork in the road w the decision to go streaming. My own proclivity is to have this as an addendum to physical media, I just need to ensure I get a solution that
1- keeps me looking for music ie Roon, and
2- isn't embarassed by my well optimised tt and cdp ie plenty of natural tone and timbre etc please.
I've had a good dress rehearsal w regular visits to Blue58 and his SGM-based system, he's almost got me over the line.

I love it when I we hit a major fork (am assuming you spelt that correctly).

Streaming is a new paradigm so the learning curve is large.

Initially when joining into the stream you can get lost in searching for new music too quickly and not digesting what you find but eventually you find a balance.

I’ve recently done some upgrading in virtually every part of my system (errr systems atm though that definitely needs a seriously fork’in the road review at some point soon... Pap Horns, Harbeths or Maggies, something must go surely, sigh, tough call coming) and now genuinely after a life searching have arrived at a happy mix of components that max the musical engagement on anything from redbook standard and above to the point where I am no longer at all limited in my enjoyment of music by essential file size (after all it’s not the file size that’s important, it’s what you do with it).

I’ve finally hit a system approach which is indeed reliably musically awesome and listening happy place destination essentially arrived. Will now contemplate other people’s journeys from here... Shunyata is a stillpoint until otherwise amended and no not talking either power or resonance control here.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I get it, no argument from me.
I'm not an HD Tracks kinda guy, I'm not likely to want dozens of HD variations on Planets Suite etc.
For me, its dipping my toe to learn more about classical, but primarily to expand my exposure to sub genres of prog like Zeuhl etc.

But I remain curious Mike. I don't know if you're a film buff, but if you are, are you also eschewing Blu Rays, 4K discs etc? Because I'm not.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Btw, are all you streaming guys also dumping yr Blu Rays and 4K discs?
No joy in collecting Criterion Blus?
Indeed, when SACD came out in 2000, my dream was for Criterion-type collectable uber packaged music. I was horrified when the whole Napster/Metallica thing broke, and the start of the decline of physical media.

I don't get why Criterion and other quality Blu Ray disc markets can exist, but not in music.

i have a separate Home Theater, with a 4K Laser front projector, CH 2:40 screen, and Dolby Atmos 7.1.4 surround. to get the full performance of the latest 4K Blue Ray discs you need to stay with the discs for now. downloads are not quite yet reliable to give you 100% of what the picture and sound that the disc can bring.

this is changing, but not yet there. lots of moving parts to this question, some beyond my understanding. i will avoid being on the cutting edge of movie streaming at the highest 4k HDR Atmos performance levels and allow some maturity to happen before i dip my toe in. there are lots of people with thousands of movies on a drive, or streamed. i don't watch enough to be leaning toward needing that anyway. i do 2-3 movies a week, but might go a month or two not watching any.

2 channel music streaming and non-disc file listening is mature already at the highest resolutions. and that is every day for me.

 

[NorthStar]

Btw, are all you streaming guys also dumping yr Blu Rays and 4K discs?
No joy in collecting Criterion Blus?
Indeed, when SACD came out in 2000, my dream was for Criterion-type collectable uber packaged music. I was horrified when the whole Napster/Metallica thing broke, and the start of the decline of physical media.

I don't get why Criterion and other quality Blu Ray disc markets can exist, but not in music.

Oppo stopped making Blu-ray players (1080p & 4K) last year (April 1st).
Cambridge just followed up recently...three weeks ago.
And last week (ten days ago) Samsung the same.

Criterion Collection Blu-rays in Canada (on sale) still cost $30-40 a piece with tax (exhorbitant as they are only 1080p).
This one is on sale (30% off) for only $31.99 ($36 with tax).

1080p (1 single disc, BD-50)

Discs are being replaced by streaming, slowly but surely. Discs are becoming a niche.

SACD is still alive (Classical music).

Movies on discs are becoming harder to get the closer we get to the future.
It's a fact, and I got many proofs. I am sad because I am a 99% physical movie guy.

For music no problemo, LPs are everywhere, second-hand and brand new.
They are more expensive new (same as a 4K Blu-ray disc, new release...pretty much).
CDs are also widely available, second-hand stores and online...same as LPs.
I see more LPs today than I see CDs...it is warming in the heart of music listeners and lovers and buyers and contributors and economists and planet's climate change. ...Yes?

Anyway we love when we play, nous sommes du soleil - Yes.

Because music and films matter.

 

[rockitman]

One should select the format(s) that make them happy. Some formats require greater expense and diligence to get right given budget constraints.

 

[BlueFox]

One should select the format(s) that make them happy.

Yes. Exactly. Personally, I just want to listen to good sounding music for hours. Not frack with it every 15-20 minutes.

 

[NorthStar]

Fracking like oil extraction. ...Shakes the soul soil foundations...can create small and big earthquakes, vibrating the body's human bones to the core.