power conditioner
- Thread starter Jeffy
- Start date
Jeffy, I am going to make some comments about power to your whole system not just your dac. if you do this right you may find that you can get improvements for your other sources and maybe even your amps depending on their current needs.
I think of power in regards to optimization not just cleanliness. To optimize you want clean power but you also want high instantaneous current. These two unfortunately often work against each other. High instantaneous current comes from an over-sized current source with exceptionally low output impedance like a Torus unit that is sized with a current rating of many multiples of the maximum draw of your system. (This is because instantaneous current demand is multiples of an amps current rating. See Caelin Gabriel's stuff on this area.) The beauty of going the isolation transformer route is that it does a good job of isolating the system form mains pollution, sinks interline oscillation from system components back at the transformer, and regulates voltage, but most importantly leaves you with a massive source of instantaneous current which is the backbone of system performance (dynamics, slew rate, damping etc.)
The problem with many other approaches is they may clean things up as well or even better than a good isolation system but they put nasty things like capacitors (filters) and undersized transformers in the line that constrain instantaneous current. In my view the worst of these offenders are the waive re-generators which will show phenomenally perfect waves but are essentially an amplifier running at a constant 60 hz with very limited instantaneous current. They measure exceptionally well and the theory is great but the impact on performance can be significant. Think about spending $50k or more on a system with amps that have an exceptional slew rate, rise time and current rating and then choking off all the incumbent benefits the system can achieve by feeding it with what is essentially a current limited $1500 amplifier just because the sign wave is perfect. Remarkably people do it all the time and marvel at the low noise floor but live with bad dynamics.
If I where you, depending on the current draw of your amps, I would buy a large Torus (or similar) unit and try adding different components of your system to that single unit and listen for any negative impact on dynamics as you add components. You may even be able to include your amps on one of the larger units but make sure the unit is rate for 3 to 5 times the rated current draw of the amps. I use a 75 amp WMT and it feeds my high current Solution amps with huge amount of instantaneous current. (A side benefit is you will realize the star grounding effects of all you grounds being connected to the same electrical potential. This alone can be a big improvement.)
Lastly, you can through on a Furutech Flux-50 on your individual lines (particularly on any SMP's or noisy digital sources). They do not limit current. I use one on each line mainly for component isolation. Oh, and be careful about listing to closely to some of the junk on the forums. There are a lot of people who speak with great authority that either are working an agenda or are just misinformed (me included). Get ideas but verify the science. If a company isn't around any more or has a low market share in these areas be careful. I like to work with the established players with big R&D capability and then study and validate their science.
Oops, could not tell that was vdc... Still without impedance values it is meaningless.
Instantaneous current response, again, is pretty worthless measurement. Almost no devices are limiting on that. The problem is that one device will recover well, and another will not, from the loads on the line. When they recover poorly the complex impedance goes all waahooey. When that is going on, what you hear is what sounds like a loss of current.
I've demonstrated that even with a large - absolutely in excess ampere - transformer will still exhibits the same problems a moderately "appropriately sized" one does. They may sound different, but right/wrong from a measurement perspective isn't probably going to give you any appreciable discerning. A moderately sized one would work better were it to have forms of correction, than a larger one. But distances from equipment matter. It's problematic to try and help a transformer when they're too close to the gear. Their seemingly low Z will trump attempts to fix the issues, but the reality is all your equipment is suffering from a big loop of complex impedance disruption. BTW I've heard smaller ones sound better on occasion. Bigger is better is relative depending on some factors. Frankly almost no audiophiles can properly identify what a lack of current sounds like. I haven't met one yet. They recognize sound patterns they assume are a lack of current, but they are usually something else. There may be consistent parallel changes, but that still doesn't explicitly say "current sounds like this". (because usually it has nothing to do with what people think)
And there is no reason not to use capacitors, unless you're using them incorrectly. When used poorly they HELP circulate more noise. Sadly I see them everywhere doing just that. People have no idea what they're doing with them, is my basic conclusion in the AC realm of audiophile products. They can also encourage Eringing when used incorrectly, which can lead to loss of actual available current.
Philosophy can't win, not in the AC realm. Nor can best wishes. It's a game of best engineering in an environment more complex than anyone gives it credit for... one that has effects people will judge it for inappropriately due to their own lack of knowledge. In the AC realm a mature understanding is that actual attenuation numbers mean little compared to actual performance; higher is better but it has a clause where several other variables are necessary. It's a realm of lies and deception for attenuation numbers, too, because most of the numbers and graphs you see are utterly unrealistic, favorable, conditions that were used for measuring.
Instantaneous current response, again, is pretty worthless measurement. Almost no devices are limiting on that. The problem is that one device will recover well, and another will not, from the loads on the line. When they recover poorly the complex impedance goes all waahooey. When that is going on, what you hear is what sounds like a loss of current.
I've demonstrated that even with a large - absolutely in excess ampere - transformer will still exhibits the same problems a moderately "appropriately sized" one does. They may sound different, but right/wrong from a measurement perspective isn't probably going to give you any appreciable discerning. A moderately sized one would work better were it to have forms of correction, than a larger one. But distances from equipment matter. It's problematic to try and help a transformer when they're too close to the gear. Their seemingly low Z will trump attempts to fix the issues, but the reality is all your equipment is suffering from a big loop of complex impedance disruption. BTW I've heard smaller ones sound better on occasion. Bigger is better is relative depending on some factors. Frankly almost no audiophiles can properly identify what a lack of current sounds like. I haven't met one yet. They recognize sound patterns they assume are a lack of current, but they are usually something else. There may be consistent parallel changes, but that still doesn't explicitly say "current sounds like this". (because usually it has nothing to do with what people think)
And there is no reason not to use capacitors, unless you're using them incorrectly. When used poorly they HELP circulate more noise. Sadly I see them everywhere doing just that. People have no idea what they're doing with them, is my basic conclusion in the AC realm of audiophile products. They can also encourage Eringing when used incorrectly, which can lead to loss of actual available current.
Philosophy can't win, not in the AC realm. Nor can best wishes. It's a game of best engineering in an environment more complex than anyone gives it credit for... one that has effects people will judge it for inappropriately due to their own lack of knowledge. In the AC realm a mature understanding is that actual attenuation numbers mean little compared to actual performance; higher is better but it has a clause where several other variables are necessary. It's a realm of lies and deception for attenuation numbers, too, because most of the numbers and graphs you see are utterly unrealistic, favorable, conditions that were used for measuring.
This is the What's Best Forum.
And the second quote is inappropriate. There's lots of gear that have really high measurements and sound like ****.
And the second quote is inappropriate. There's lots of gear that have really high measurements and sound like ****.
Paul my system sounds great with out any filters. I have 7 dedicated lines and don't want to add a conditioner on everything and lose my dedicated lines. I feel the best way would be to put individual isolating transformers on each of these lines. I tried a lot of conditioners in the past and have always gone back to none. I just wanted to see if filtering only the digital would improve things.
Just think that many people have class A electronics and high-efficiency speakers. Even most of those having class A/B electronics seldom use more than a few watts in the class A zone. Do you expect them to have bad dynamics with re-generators?
IMHO simplism is not an appropriate way of looking to power supply issues. All the classical parameters you refer are not dependent on mains, except current rating in extreme cases.
We've had so many bad results with power conditioners and our amps that generally we recommend people simply get a good power cord and plug right into the wall.
And yet people are still concerned. Like I've been saying, coincidental factors tend to direct them towards approaches to fight off any kind of reduction in dynamics. What people think of as "dynamics" usually are affected by things not related to actual current capability, at least not in the simple and raw sense of it. You can have 8ga cables, and a gazillion capacitors, that doesn't mean it will sound "dynamic" necessarily. All of us have heard the one weirdo with strange DIY stuff, tubes, that was really dynamic and ran like 18ga silver wire, at some point... then some of us go pretend like the only answer is 500w class A with an upgraded transformer from the power company... Right...
There are way too many things going on, on the AC lines to ever think of them simply, or have simply philosophy (unless that is "just get a SurgeX, or Folsom conditioner"). Micro is absolutely right about that. Any of us in the industry intend to design so you don't have to think about it, but the reality is almost no one seems to succeed. That's why atmopshere and so many others are like, "just plug it into the wall." And what's even nuttier is that even when a product is completely successful, that doesn't mean that the associated amplifier or such being used with it will sound right after. Why? How can a Right + Right = wrong? Well, many amplifiers and different gear are tuned to sound correct with bad power. It's part of their sound. So the complexity returns to some degree. For that reason I want to release a whole product line from phono/dac to amp, including power conditioner, so at least there is a guaranteed way to get amazing sound that will refute complaints against silly equipment that has been unbalanced by clean power or proper operation.
I think Paul should try my Lillies, and see what they may do for him, even with a transformer based setup.
Hmmm.....Not sure who that was meant for but if it was for me I apologize.......I guess???????
Appropriatess isn't just something that might be offensive. I mean that the end of a the bell curve is a focus around here! We're all about it.
And indeed I do think, try my Lillies. It would be fun to see the results if they do as much for you as they do an Equi=tech. (which model specifically, do you have?)
Empirical Audio
Industry Expert
+10
The only good conditioner is a low-current one for digital, the Plasmatron.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio
I hear you about your dedicated lines but don't fall into the sunk cost trap...Ultimately the goal is the best SQ. You may get better sound using fewer lines with the right product. It really depends on the quality of your mains. You could always start with the smallest Torus (something like the Torus Min) and see what its like to plug source components that you think are the nosiest into this unit and see what happens. Given the inability of any of the devices you have tried to have an impact, its possible your mains are quite good. Who knows, maybe you will end up selling the Mini if you try it or, on the other, end up keeping it and even buying a larger in room unit for your amps. My main point is I would not be concerned about having too much rated current because instantaneous current draw is also critical and it is multiples of any devices rated current. Maybe read up on Caelin Gabriel's views on this.
Bad? No. Sub-optimum? Yes.
I am referring to instantaneous current draws at a level of time domain resolution well beyond the kind of measurement you refer too when you say a few watts. And yes there are those of us who are naive enough to think it makes a difference. My Soulution amps are 125 watts but have instantaneous power over 5000 watts with maximum current of 45 amps. And before you say it, its not just about the amps storage capacitance but also about the available instantaneous power available from the external power lines to keep that storage capacitance charged and recharged during complex passages at high volumes.
Let me say it differently. In trying to make a logic based supposition the exception does not prove nor disprove the rule.
I argue larger is better you agree larger is better while at the same time effectively arguing its not because smaller is better in unique cases where other variables are uncontrolled. How bout dat?
I do not own Equitech. I own the 75 amp WMT AVR Torus.
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I can't argue with that other than to recommend an oversized isolation transformer (75 amps or more) on the other side of the wall with massive capacitance-storage and nil output impedance. Throw in NBT and Voltage Regulation and that dog hunts.
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I have dirty 'direct' outlets from a 100 amp service to my barn panel, next to 'clean' outlets from my balanced 10kva Equi=tech 10WQ Wall Panel (with 70 amp service). I've had these two choices sitting there for 7 years now, and have had dozens of occasions to compare them directly on sources, spinners (transports, tt's, and RTR decks), and amplifiers. game, set, match to the Equi=tech fed outlets 100% of the time. more dynamics, lower noise, more refined and nuanced, better flow.
an interesting event was my previous amp, the 100 watt per channel darTZeel 108 stereo amp, which has twin lights in front that will flash bright when the amp nears clipping. previous to the Equi=tech with certain music I could predictably get those lights to flash to the beat of the music with certain cuts. after the Equi=tech they never once flashed. the more solid power delivery stabilized the power supply and had a physical manifestation I could see as well as hear.
my 10kva Equi=tech has about 50% headroom over the peak output of all my gear. which I think is about right. it does weigh 400 pounds and is mounted 'in' a wall across from the door to my room. it has it's own dedicated ground rod buried in the ground right on the other side of the wall it's mounted on.
not all power conditioners are created equal.
my total investment including install by an electrical contractor and cleanup of the wall by a carpenter was about $16k. some small power conditioners cost more than that and they are like child's 'toys' next to the big boy Equi=tech.
if you have the choice to 'do it right' then just do it.
an interesting event was my previous amp, the 100 watt per channel darTZeel 108 stereo amp, which has twin lights in front that will flash bright when the amp nears clipping. previous to the Equi=tech with certain music I could predictably get those lights to flash to the beat of the music with certain cuts. after the Equi=tech they never once flashed. the more solid power delivery stabilized the power supply and had a physical manifestation I could see as well as hear.
my 10kva Equi=tech has about 50% headroom over the peak output of all my gear. which I think is about right. it does weigh 400 pounds and is mounted 'in' a wall across from the door to my room. it has it's own dedicated ground rod buried in the ground right on the other side of the wall it's mounted on.
not all power conditioners are created equal.
my total investment including install by an electrical contractor and cleanup of the wall by a carpenter was about $16k. some small power conditioners cost more than that and they are like child's 'toys' next to the big boy Equi=tech.
if you have the choice to 'do it right' then just do it.
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I'm not arguing for "unqiue cases", it's an argument for engineering is more important that the philosophy of sheer size.
I can't find your unit on Torus's website. I know you don't own an Equi=tech, I specifically said compare to one.
Well yes of course size without an engineering purpose would be silly. Sorry if I misunderstood.
http://www.toruspower.com/na-wall-mount/
WM 75 BAL AVR
Yep.
My transformer is in a small sound proof side room next to my listening room that also houses a dedicated hvac/hepa system for my room. My wire runs from the 70 amp Torus are 15 feet of 10 gauge Furutech NCF to three NCF outlets and double 10 gauge to two additional NCF outlets for the amps. The Torus has a 1" by 8 ft ground rod with a dedicated furutech star ground harness buried in 400 lbs of grounding mix. Its a pretty quiet and dynamic set up.
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