power conditioner

[microstrip]

Then what you're discussing is problems that are from the power company. That would be the type of things that could be checked with a multimeter. It isn't really "analyzing" it's more like seeing if your car's electrical system is at 9v instead of 12v. It is like seeing if your circuit is shared, etc. These aren't "analyzing" things, you just look and see. Most of them will be errors by idiots that think it's smart to put a living room on the same breaker as a bathroom etc.

When I said analyze I meant using spectrum analyzers synced and recorded through the whole abode, to which then you'd have to make up some software to compare them all and look at what is really going on. It's hella complicated and not needed. And then be able to merge it with information on PF, derating from transformer, etc.

I referred to analyzing the mains properly, and referred a few parameters, not handling a voltmeter. It would be nice if you told us what you do and not imagining what others do ...

 

[Folsom]

I didn't say dynamics were reduced on highs, I said they sound softer or muted, which doesn't necessarily mean they don't scale with volume. And hardly anyone thinks of them in terms of dynamics.

Changing powercords isn't "proof" for me. There are too many variable to really comment on whether simply increasing capacitance is enough. In terms of current it may have nothing to do with raw numbers, and more to do with complex impedance issues.

 

[Folsom]

I referred to analyzing the mains properly, and referred a few parameters, not handling a voltmeter. It would be nice if you told us what you do and not imagining what others do ...

Same difference micro. Analyzing for high end function of audio playback, or errors in construction and utility service.

 

[jfrech]

Paul my system sounds great with out any filters. I have 7 dedicated lines and don't want to add a conditioner on everything and lose my dedicated lines. I feel the best way would be to put individual isolating transformers on each of these lines. I tried a lot of conditioners in the past and have always gone back to none. I just wanted to see if filtering only the digital would improve things.

Jeffy, what is feeding your DAC? I've had superior results with my Shunyata DPC-6 to block out computer generated noise from my NAS drive, Apple Airport Extreme and TT motor controller (mine is a DSP type), My DAC does like the conditioner, but these "peripherals" are emitting something and my system benefits with the DPC-6 blocking em...

 

[Pb Blimp]

Dynamics includes high-frequency dynamics as well as low-frequency dynamics. It simply means that the current required is the current delivered to the active devices. If this is not satisfied, then droop in the voltage occurs and thus loss of dynamics.

The other thing I know from experience is that even the best capacitor banks and ultracaps etc., are not sufficient to deliver the dynamic current needed in most components, particularly amps. Even having lots of HF decoupling in close proximity is not good enough. How do I know this? Just change the power cord. If you hear a difference, then the on-board capacitance is insufficient to supply the dynamic current requested. In a perfect world, the cord would make no difference, but unfortunately caps are not perfect, they have non-zero internal impedance, and circuit boards and cabling have inductance.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Holy crud Steve I am going to start thinking you may know what you are talking about if you keep this up.... This is the essence of my point about ample instantaneous current. Big storage capacitance in an oversized transformer; low gage, high quality short lines to good outlets; toss in voltage regulation, line filters that have zero impact on current to isolate the components, add star grounding roast on high for 45 minutes and serve.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Holy crud Steve I am going to start thinking you may know what you are talking about if you keep this up.... This is the essence of my point about ample instantaneous current. Big storage capacitance in an oversized transformer; low gage, high quality short lines to good outlets; toss in voltage regulation, line filters that have zero impact on current to isolate the components, add star grounding roast on high for 45 minutes and serve.

Watch out. If my head gets any bigger, I'll have to buy new hats....

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[DaveC]

The other thing I know from experience is that even the best capacitor banks and ultracaps etc., are not sufficient to deliver the dynamic current needed in most components, particularly amps. Even having lots of HF decoupling in close proximity is not good enough. How do I know this? Just change the power cord. If you hear a difference, then the on-board capacitance is insufficient to supply the dynamic current requested. In a perfect world, the cord would make no difference, but unfortunately caps are not perfect, they have non-zero internal impedance, and circuit boards and cabling have inductance.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Hmm, I think there's a lot of misconception about cap banks. I disagree that on-board capacitance is not enough to supply the dynamic current required in a competent design, as that is their purpose. I'm sure you can point out nearly unlimited examples of poor PS design as most things are built to be cheap, but let's assume we're talking about competently designed gear. The reason power cables sound different is because caps, and the entire PS, are not completely decoupling the input and the output, it's not at all like a tank of water and the fluid-flow analogy doesn't completely describe what's happening here, the PS attenuates inputs, possibly, but there's not complete isolation and it's audible even with excellent PS design. I think you've drawn the wrong conclusions about why a PC might sound different.

 

[Folsom]

@Fosom, I would be interested in your considerations with regard to Ballanced Power between wall mains and system.

Balanced transformers help to phase cancel a minor amount of noise. The isolation that they also have is a bigger benefit. From the perspective of a component it is good and bad for the transformer in that inner and outer side of the windings can have different sounds due to leakage to ground. If you're on single phase unbalanced you can literally just switch hot&neutral and see which sounds better - it's that easy to hear. And by switch I don't mean mess with AC wiring of the home or power cable, I do mean inside the equipment to correctly maintain safety.

As much as these transformers help, they do create some other issues. Parasitics go unnoticed, for one - by everyone I've ever seen. They also don't do anything to help keep the secondary side (stereo equipment side) from interacting with each other. I personally wouldn't get one because it just compounds potential problems, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to come out better when they're addressed.

For any and all of them I highly recommend my Lillies - which the special variation for balanced transformers does work against parasitics. The ones that go in the breaker box will help maintain a complex impedance that is friendly towards the primaries, so they can act as intended in the transformer. Depending on distance from the stereo I may even recommend further corrective measures to make sure you're not losing as much as you're benefiting. Some stereos with a long distance from the stereo to the transformer may have much worse issues, but ironically be more treatable. The small balanced ones that are only a short power cord to the equipment cannot be treated easily if they exhibit any issues because you have two low impedances that will dominate a lot of corrective measures. The only way to work with that is basically to insert a conditioner of a sort between the two.

I hope that gives you a snippet of what runs through me head when talking about them. It can get more complicated like with looking at multiple winding secondary outputs, and addressing worries about capacitance between them.

 

[Pb Blimp]

@Fosom, I would be interested in your considerations with regard to Ballanced Power between wall mains and system.

Balanced transformers help to phase cancel a minor amount of noise. The isolation that they also have is a bigger benefit. From the perspective of a component it is good and bad for the transformer in that inner and outer side of the windings can have different sounds due to leakage to ground. If you're on single phase unbalanced you can literally just switch hot&neutral and see which sounds better - it's that easy to hear. And by switch I don't mean mess with AC wiring of the home or power cable, I do mean inside the equipment to correctly maintain safety.

As much as these transformers help, they do create some other issues. Parasitics go unnoticed, for one - by everyone I've ever seen. They also don't do anything to help keep the secondary side (stereo equipment side) from interacting with each other. I personally wouldn't get one because it just compounds potential problems, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible to come out better when they're addressed.

For any and all of them I highly recommend my Lillies - which the special variation for balanced transformers does work against parasitics. The ones that go in the breaker box will help maintain a complex impedance that is friendly towards the primaries, so they can act as intended in the transformer. Depending on distance from the stereo I may even recommend further corrective measures to make sure you're not losing as much as you're benefiting. Some stereos with a long distance from the stereo to the transformer may have much worse issues, but ironically be more treatable. The small balanced ones that are only a short power cord to the equipment cannot be treated easily if they exhibit any issues because you have two low impedances that will dominate a lot of corrective measures. The only way to work with that is basically to insert a conditioner of a sort between the two.

I hope that gives you a snippet of what runs through me head when talking about them. It can get more complicated like with looking at multiple winding secondary outputs, and addressing worries about capacitance between them.

I prefer my neutrals cool (maybe a tad luke warm) but not HOT.

 

[Jeffy]

Jfrech my pc is connected with Ethernet to a local router as a network (DLNA). Router is connected to a switch and then to the dac; all by Ethernet. Ethernet allows for good isolation of the switching power supply’s of the computer. I’m using two dedicated Sbooster 12 volt linear power supplies to the router and the switch. The switches dc is further grounded to the AC. All are plugged in to separate dedicated lines. I wanted to see if adding an isolator or conditioner to the dac would make any difference. I also have a Ethernet isolator adapter, but I don’t know where to place it.

 

[Empirical Audio]

Jfrech my pc is connected with Ethernet to a local router as a network (DLNA). Router is connected to a switch and then to the dac; all by Ethernet. Ethernet allows for good isolation of the switching power supply’s of the computer. I’m using two dedicated Sbooster 12 volt linear power supplies to the router and the switch. The switches dc is further grounded to the AC. All are plugged in to separate dedicated lines. I wanted to see if adding an isolator or conditioner to the dac would make any difference. I also have a Ethernet isolator adapter, but I don’t know where to place it.

Put the isolator after a 1.5 foot Ethernet cable and then a longer cable to the DAC. It will reduce capacitance across the transformers by putting more in series, thereby reducing leakage.

Steve N.

 

[Amir]

All of the power conditioners I've seen offered to high end audio seem to fall well short of actually doing the job. Either they can't handle much power or they don't do much.

Elgar made some of the best power conditioners made price no object. They got out of the market years ago, so if you get one, it may have to be refurbished.

They work in this way: A large isolation transformer is inside, which has a feedback winding. There is a low distortion oscillator that is synchronously locked to the AC line frequency. A comparator looks at the output and creates a correction voltage based on comparison to the oscillator. This is fed back to the isolation transformer. The result is a low distortion sine wave, THD of 0.1% right up to full capacity, with AC voltage regulation to boot.

Here's a lower power version on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Elgar-6006...727168&hash=item1ed7930919:g:z5MAAOSwbtNaTXE9

Based on what our customers are telling us, you're mostly wasting your $$ with most so-called 'conditioners' as they just don't do the job.

Pure Power 3000+ (2700w Class D transformerless AC Regenerator) is perfect for low power class A tube amplifiers. Both Line and Neutral are isolated.

As you know most audiophiles have AC quality problem Did you try to design a class D AC Regenerator?

 

[Amir]

We've had so many bad results with power conditioners and our amps that generally we recommend people simply get a good power cord and plug right into the wall.

Yes, most AC conditioners are not ok, one step forward and two step back.

 

[Atmasphere]

Pure Power 3000+ (2700w Class D transformerless AC Regenerator) is perfect for low power class A tube amplifiers. Both Line and Neutral are isolated.

As you know most audiophiles have AC quality problem Did you try to design a class D AC Regenerator?

We've certainly considered it. This is a good application of class D since low distortion and high efficiency are helpful.

 

[Amir]

We've certainly considered it. This is a good application of class D since low distortion and high efficiency are helpful.

I think there is a big market if you design a good transformerless 30KVA class D AC regenerator.
Purepower 3000+ is perfect but the power is not enough for big ss amplifiers.
I had high quality swiss made 20KVA ABB UPS but the sound was not good, I do not know what is the difference of Purepower and other UPS but no UPS sounds like purepower.