REL vs JL Audio subs

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The biggest decision factor here is their very different modes of connection/setup and how they relate to your particular system configuration. REL is pretty much commited to high-level (speaker-level) connections is contradistinction to almost everybody else in the business although they have made gestures in the direction of low-level (line-level) input. JL offers both and definitely leans in the direction of line-level which definitely permits the implementation of proper system integration, crossover and equalization. IMHO, those facilities are necessary for successful use of subs and, without them, integration is a crap-shoot.

Also, REL's old canard about high level sub connections being valuable to preserve the system/amp tonality is part of that crap-shoot. Whatever tonality we perceive of a sub's contributions is determined by the harmonics which are still provided by the main speaker. What if the reason you are thinking about adding a sub is really due to an LF weakness in the very amp that is now running mains and sub?

If wanted, anyone can use a standard subwoofer in the high level mode - just build a resistive divider with a ratio around 20 - 1000 and 47 ohm will be perfect. However as you say, why doing it? Most of the time all it will do is limiting the bandwidth of the subwoofer to the bandwidth of the existing power amplifier - a complete disaster with most tube amplifiers that have limited bass and high distortion in the low bass. Also, if you use a single subwoofer in a few cases this technique will also introduce noise in the subwoofer.

Just a technical advice, use whatever you find it sounds better in your system.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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Oh absolutely! I thought it was clear that I was speaking for myself....
To be sure and I was not saying otherwise. What I was describing was that we need some form of objective information to give us common ground.
"saying one component is better than another is a primitive way of looking at audio". They are different enough that they will appeal to different people.
It depends on what you mean by better. If you mean that one component pleases you more than another, that's fine. OTOH, if you mean that one component is objectively more successful in doing its function without corruption or coloration, their anecdotal appeal is not relevant. Neither is a primitive view, just different.
 

Ron Resnick

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I've owned JL Audio F110s with the CR-1 Active Subwoofer Crossover, and F112s. I've owned REL Carbon Specials, G1 mkii, and now I have dual REL No. 32s. In my opinion they're different as opposed to one being better than the other. I recently watched a Youtube video and the presenter said, "saying one component is better than another is a primitive way of looking at audio". They are different enough that they will appeal to different people.

It is interesting that you have experience with both. Please tell us your sonic impressions of speaker-level versus line-level connection methodology.

What are the sonic pros and cons of F110s versus the most comparable RELs?

To which kind of audiophile will each connection method and which brand appeal?
 
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XV-1

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I am a fan of the CR-1 Active Subwoofer Crossover because its controls are very effective but it's subwoofer output is not being supplied from a post-power-amplifier source. Using it to add bass support under the LF output of main speakers running without any HP is feasible but such control is not common.

Of course, using a HP filter for the main system can have other benefits such as allowing higher output/headroom from the main amp and speaker.

I am running the E110 directly from the 2nd preamp output. I am continuing to run my Wilson speakers full range.

What is the difference between this and the REL connection method of from the amp output terminals.
Are they not both driving the subwoofer with a full range signal?
 

Ron Resnick

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XV-1

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Yes but the REL connection setup pipes the sub signal through the main amp as well as its own.

Is that the only fundamental difference if you are not going down the active crossover route?
 

Ron Resnick

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Yes but the REL connection setup pipes the sub signal through the main amp as well as its own.

If we are being precise this isn’t quite correct, I believe. The sub amplifier is not going “through the main amp.” It is that the sub amp is receiving the signal from the main amp, and amplifying that signal from the main amp.
 

Kal Rubinson

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If we are being super-precise this isn’t quite correct, I believe. The sub amplifier is not going “through the main amp.” It is that the sub amp is receiving the signal from the main and amplifying that signal from the main amp.
OK. That is what I intended to say.
 
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Tlay

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A few months ago I bought a REL Carbon special without knowing what to expect. I heard so many positives I thought I’d try.
My room is quite large 17x38. My O96’s were always super enjoyable and went pretty low so it was a shock just what an improvement the sub made. It was even better when I elevated it about a foot off the ground. The whole presentation from top to bottom became much more tangible,
pressurizing the room effortlessly. I would hate to be without it now. Anecdotal and ymmv.
 

ricjor1

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It is interesting that you have experience with both. Please tell us your sonic impressions of speaker-level versus line-level connection methodology.

What are the sonic pros and cons of F110s versus the most comparable RELs?

To which kind of audiophile will each connection method and which brand appeal?
I don't want to enter into the debate about speaker-level vs line-level connection, BUT... when I had dual REL Carbon Specials I tried both and actually preferred and used the line-level connection. It was the opposite with the G1s. I currently use the speaker-level connection with the No. 32s.

My room is L-shaped, 20' wide(front wall) x 26' long, and the back wall is 26' wide. Relying on memory I thought the F110 were too small for my room. F110 vs the Carbon Specials... I think the F110 has slightly tighter bass. I think the Carbon Specials impacted everything across the audio spectrum more than the F110s. Ultimately, the Carbon Special's passive radiator drove me crazy and I sold them.

I think the audiophile that wants a subwoofer that "hits hard" and in my experience wants to know the subwoofer is there will love JL Audio subwoofers. REL Reference subwoofers are for the audiophile that wants a subwoofer that disappears to the point that you wonder if the subwoofer is on, but when you turn it off it's clear how much it impacts the soundstage, detail, and bass articulation.
 

XV-1

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I don't want to enter into the debate about speaker-level vs line-level connection, BUT... when I had dual REL Carbon Specials I tried both and actually preferred and used the line-level connection. It was the opposite with the G1s. I currently use the speaker-level connection with the No. 32s.

My room is L-shaped, 20' wide(front wall) x 26' long, and the back wall is 26' wide. Relying on memory I thought the F110 were too small for my room. F110 vs the Carbon Specials... I think the F110 has slightly tighter bass. I think the Carbon Specials impacted everything across the audio spectrum more than the F110s. Ultimately, the Carbon Special's passive radiator drove me crazy and I sold them.

I think the audiophile that wants a subwoofer that "hits hard" and in my experience wants to know the subwoofer is there will love JL Audio subwoofers. REL Reference subwoofers are for the audiophile that wants a subwoofer that disappears to the point that you wonder if the subwoofer is on, but when you turn it off it's clear how much it impacts the soundstage, detail, and bass articulation.

It's funny you mention the passive radiator. The guy I bought the e110 from also has a carbon special. He too became frustrated with the passive radiator.
He removed it and blocked off the passive with a large slab of rock - much deeper / tighter bass. Apparently REL make a blanking plate for the same purpose.
 

Ron Resnick

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I don't want to enter into the debate about speaker-level vs line-level connection, BUT... when I had dual REL Carbon Specials I tried both and actually preferred and used the line-level connection. It was the opposite with the G1s. I currently use the speaker-level connection with the No. 32s.

My room is L-shaped, 20' wide(front wall) x 26' long, and the back wall is 26' wide. Relying on memory I thought the F110 were too small for my room. F110 vs the Carbon Specials... I think the F110 has slightly tighter bass. I think the Carbon Specials impacted everything across the audio spectrum more than the F110s. Ultimately, the Carbon Special's passive radiator drove me crazy and I sold them.

I think the audiophile that wants a subwoofer that "hits hard" and in my experience wants to know the subwoofer is there will love JL Audio subwoofers. REL Reference subwoofers are for the audiophile that wants a subwoofer that disappears to the point that you wonder if the subwoofer is on, but when you turn it off it's clear how much it impacts the soundstage, detail, and bass articulation.

Very interesting. Thank you!
 

ricjor1

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M-dB

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XV-1 Years ago two acquaintances brought their REL Studio III and JL Audio F113 A.R.O. to my home. REL are actually sub-bass speakers being -6dB at their manufactures rated low frequency response.
The F113 hit its -3dB point below its manufactures rated response, a substantial difference.
On their own both have little to no control flexibility.

If you locate your E-Sub in the vicinity of one of your rooms bass modes you may notice a performance improvement at the listening position.
 
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joey_v

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I haven’t heard a rel integrate perfectly into a system, it seems to be a challenge that if you’re lucky and you have the right room dimensions, listening position, bass trapping… it probably is better.
But the JL with cr1 to me seems like a cheat code, works better when you’re limited in either time or space.
Just my opinion.
 
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ricjor1

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I haven’t heard a rel integrate perfectly into a system, it seems to be a challenge that if you’re lucky and you have the right room dimensions, listening position, bass trapping… it probably is better.
But the JL with cr1 to me seems like a cheat code, works better when you’re limited in either time or space.
Just my opinion.
Maybe it was user error, but I'm not a fan of the CR-1.
 

sbnx

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Another awesome subwoofer discussion. I have experimented extensively with subwoofer setup using differnt methods and different subwoofers. There are several ways to setup subs and each has it pro's and con's. The major fork in the road is to decide if we want to run the main speakers full range or use a crossover like the CR-1 to roll them off. If one wants to run the mains full range then I would encourage anyone to get a pair of Analysis Plus supersub cables and a pair of the Analysis plus REL cables and experiment to see which they prefer. These cabels are pretty inexpensive (relatively speaking). Whichever connection type you don't like just sell the cables on AG taking a minimal loss.

I will mention one con of using the low level inputs. That is if you are running the cables out of a second output from your preamp then noise from the plate amp on the sub is getting fed back into the preamp. There are ways around this.
 

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