Are you planning to set up a night club for rave parties for old audiophiles?
Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Are you planning to set up a night club for rave parties for old audiophiles?
1. And yet I doubt in millions of years of listening could you pick the difference between them by ear alone. We're talking about frequencies that are mostly felt, not heard by very many humans as our ears simply are very limited in these ranges. And I'd argue the Funks are much more organic because they rely on driver and box coercion for resolution as opposed to faulty (presumptuously wrong) feedback in this range. Frankly trying to generate frequencies this low, extremely powerful class D amps and long throw woofers are the best way because physics dictate the fact. That's why the MM7 uses exactly that.
2. Low frequencies do not operates nor care about how you feel for line sources. They're too long to abide by any line source rule. You'd need subwoofers that were literally 27.5 foot to even start to create a line source at 10hz. Otherwise they're just stacked, and not acting as a line source at all anymore than a single sub sitting by itself. The 10hz wavelength is 109.677 feet long. This is why subwoofer frequencies are omni-directional, because even if they subwoofer wasn't 27.5 foot itself, the baffle would need to be to prevent the omni-direction.
Totally with you Ron. I heard the mighty Arrakis...and i remember thinking they are probably at the top of the pile for me today...and while it would some real quality/power to provide an even greater foundation underneath them...i would still do it with superb subs.
What do you mean by “faulty (presumptuously wrong) feedback in this range” [with the Master Subsonics]?
So you think Wilson Audio designed the Thor and Subsonic the way they did merely to look impressive and cost a lot, and that they achieve nothing more than a single driver in a tight box on the floor would accomplish?
Firstly, no, when I talk about feedback in the subwoofer range I mean that most companies are fixated on using a lot of feedback in preference over mechanical damping. This doesn't work because the corrections the feedback tries to make don't give you any better result, if not an even worse one, than prior to the feedback (the lower you go the more this becomes true). This is because of the complicated nature of subwoofers with the long throw, low frequencies, and increased mass size (which happens no matter what kinda cone you use, they weigh more than a mid).
So it's better to use a lot more power and rely as little as possible on feedback, and have the driver itself damped well. But the damped subwoofer is problematic in that it won't want to play below it's resonate frequency. It can, but doesn't like it. So you need a lot of power to force it to do so (and EQ).
Wilson's independent subwoofers are meant to play more than just the sub 20hz range. You can't adjust the subwoofers on their main speakers. That means you can have potentially a fair bit of loss because of amps or room issues. And if Wilson is about something, it certainly includes wanting to include some control, so it makes perfect sense that they let people choose the amps for the subwoofers. Because they may be covering a much larger frequency range, you begin to get into areas where you're going to want to match them with the main speakers in phasing and sonic type signature.
You on the other hand have bass towers that can be shifted around independent of the other two towers, so long as they're within about 4ft of the mids (any direction). You've got more adjustability. You are not going to be in nearly as much potential need for subwoofers playing farther up into the mains range.
Another thing about Wilsons is that they like to provide for people that want options in HT where you need a lot more SPL, and people are likely to put their large towers in rather large rooms where people are going to need their independent subwoofers to be able to provide the SPL levels to keep it matched. I know a fellow with one of their smaller subs, and he's struggled with inadequate power, finding for movies it just isn't enough. It was more fit for music but not needed with his wide bandwidth speakers.
If this conversation was about you finding subwoofers to play up to 250hz because your bass towers were not working out nearly enough, I wouldn't recommend powered subwoofers. (I would suggest considering DDk's comments about trying to match your existing speakers and such, which btw I don't think the Wilsons do) But we're just talking about the very, very, low stuff. The tricks are all within the tuning, to get it to sound natural and not forced over-power in nature. It doesn't even take a lot of spl to give that ambiance of low stuff that makes immersion so amazing - hence why I suggested asking Duke about your space size first because you've already got a pair of superb amps.
**Oh and the Wilson Master Chronics are tuned very low. Their mains cannot play much below the tuning, as anything ported drops off in SPL pretty fast right after the tuning frequency. So by using ported subwoofers they created a situation where having another lower tuned subwoofer is a good way to get those super low frequencies.
So it's better to use a lot more power and rely as little as possible on feedback, and have the driver itself damped well. But the damped subwoofer is problematic in that it won't want to play below it's resonate frequency. It can, but doesn't like it. So you need a lot of power to force it to do so (and EQ).
Wilson's independent subwoofers are meant to play more than just the sub 20hz range. You can't adjust the subwoofers on their main speakers. That means you can have potentially a fair bit of loss because of amps or room issues. And if Wilson is about something, it certainly includes wanting to include some control, so it makes perfect sense that they let people choose the amps for the subwoofers. Because they may be covering a much larger frequency range, you begin to get into areas where you're going to want to match them with the main speakers in phasing and sonic type signature.
You on the other hand have bass towers that can be shifted around independent of the other two towers, so long as they're within about 4ft of the mids (any direction). You've got more adjustability. You are not going to be in nearly as much potential need for subwoofers playing farther up into the mains range.
Another thing about Wilsons is that they like to provide for people that want options in HT where you need a lot more SPL, and people are likely to put their large towers in rather large rooms where people are going to need their independent subwoofers to be able to provide the SPL levels to keep it matched. I know a fellow with one of their smaller subs, and he's struggled with inadequate power, finding for movies it just isn't enough. It was more fit for music but not needed with his wide bandwidth speakers.
If this conversation was about you finding subwoofers to play up to 250hz because your bass towers were not working out nearly enough, I wouldn't recommend powered subwoofers. (I would suggest considering DDk's comments about trying to match your existing speakers and such, which btw I don't think the Wilsons do) But we're just talking about the very, very, low stuff. The tricks are all within the tuning, to get it to sound natural and not forced over-power in nature. It doesn't even take a lot of spl to give that ambiance of low stuff that makes immersion so amazing - hence why I suggested asking Duke about your space size first because you've already got a pair of superb amps.
**Oh and the Wilson Master Chronics are tuned very low. Their mains cannot play much below the tuning, as anything ported drops off in SPL pretty fast right after the tuning frequency. So by using ported subwoofers they created a situation where having another lower tuned subwoofer is a good way to get those super low frequencies.
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A set of ML Statements E2 for sale on Audiogon right now, use the sub towers
in your system Ron ! I know you are a Martin Logan guy at heart.
I love the E2!
But I wonder (I doubt) ML can support that product today if drivers are dry or seals are cracking, etc. I would be concerned about the midbass coupler drivers, for example.
But If I didn’t have my speakers I likely would buy that system!
ML Statement E2 or Wilson Alexia 2 (or any other similarly priced conventional box speaker) for the same price? I know which I would take!
LL21 should buy these MLs!
But I wonder (I doubt) ML can support that product today if drivers are dry or seals are cracking, etc. I would be concerned about the midbass coupler drivers, for example.
But If I didn’t have my speakers I likely would buy that system!
ML Statement E2 or Wilson Alexia 2 (or any other similarly priced conventional box speaker) for the same price? I know which I would take!
LL21 should buy these MLs!
I tried them with VTL on the main towers, and it was fantastic !
Not Siegfrieds but the previous Wotans, the Siegfrieds are more resolving, and easier to maintain, the Wotans where brute beasts ! I think the mid bass and bass drivers are paper cones made by Danish Scanspeak, and very durable. I would be surprised if Martin Logan did not have a stock of them, they where not
crazy expensive drivers. When i bought the E2 sub towers a few years ago, one
of the specialy made large spikes was missing. Martin Logan had it in stock,
they are still a solid company, but i miss Gayle Sanders, he was a innovator !
I followed your lead and bought Aesthetix Io Eclipse with second power supply, my first serious tube purchase, can’t wait to hear what all the fuss is about !
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You should love the Eclipse.. I have a friend locally with the Mapleknoll... he is not very technical and I do have to go to his place to fiddle with his table from time to time.. mainly because of long periods of dormancy. When it runs it is a great performer.I tried them with VTL on the main towers, and it was fantastic !
Not Siegfrieds but the previous Wotans, the Siegfrieds are more resolving, and easier to maintain, the Wotans where brute beasts ! I think the mid bass and bass drivers are paper cones made by Danish Scanspeak, and very durable. I would be surprised if Martin Logan did not have a stock of them, they where not
crazy expensive drivers. When i bought the E2 sub towers a few years ago, one
of the specialy made large spikes was missing. Martin Logan had it in stock,
they are still a solid company, but i miss Gayle Sanders, he was a innovator !
I followed your lead and bought Aesthetix Io Eclipse with second power supply, my first serious tube purchase, can’t wait to hear what all the fuss is about !
It is a good TT once you figure out a steady clean air supply, and a good
table for upgrading. The air bearing can handle a lot of weight with no problem,
i’m using a combination of 60 lbs lead and 60 lbs steel platters, managed
by Phoenix techs controller and tach. I also have a SME 3012R arm on a
Micro Seiki type outrigger, it is very stable combination.
Do you have a extra phono input on your Eclipse ? If yes, can you do separate
loading on it ? I have never heard the Eclipse and bought mine on you, Ron and Keds positive feedback only !
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I tried them with VTL on the main towers, and it was fantastic !
Not Siegfrieds but the previous Wotans, the Siegfrieds are more resolving, and easier to maintain, the Wotans where brute beasts ! I think the mid bass and bass drivers are paper cones made by Danish Scanspeak, and very durable. I would be surprised if Martin Logan did not have a stock of them, they where not
crazy expensive drivers. When i bought the E2 sub towers a few years ago, one
of the specialy made large spikes was missing. Martin Logan had it in stock,
they are still a solid company, but i miss Gayle Sanders, he was a innovator !
I followed your lead and bought Aesthetix Io Eclipse with second power supply, my first serious tube purchase, can’t wait to hear what all the fuss is about !
Congratulations on the Io Eclipse with two power supplies! That is exactly what I have on order.
What cartridge do you plan to use?
For now Benz LP-S and Benz TR .The TR is not ideal, as it is very low output
and best used with a step-up, i think removing 2 tubes in the Io will make it possible. Maybe in the future a higher output Van Den Hul .
I will be anticipating your inputs on this matter Ron !
Lagonda, for panel applications, which require large backward layering, air, stage, slam, there is hardly anything I would prefer to aesthetix and Allnic. They also as density to panels. Just on aesthetix, it is crucial to replace the tubes and also rewire it. I don't know the details of what to use. Kcin would have tried tubes as would UHA's Greg baron, do you can ask them. Greg would also suggest shun mooking each of the three boxes .
.I’m hoping it’s listenable with stock tubes on a solid foundation.Lagonda, for panel applications, which require large backward layering, air, stage, slam, there is hardly anything I would prefer to aesthetix and Allnic. They also as density to panels. Just on aesthetix, it is crucial to replace the tubes and also rewire it. I don't know the details of what to use. Kcin would have tried tubes as would UHA's Greg baron, do you can ask them. Greg would also suggest shun mooking each of the three boxes
Give me a couple of months before i go further down the rabbit hole
The Mapleknoll is a great performer!
Yes, if you ordered your Eclipse with 2 inputs. If this is the case, you will have the option to alter each phono input load independently albeit inside on the back chassis.
Well, you have take a leap of faith with ordering and not hearing first.. don't judge the unit until after at least 400 hrs. Its break in is a long one. It will sound thin at first and go through different strange phases.
Your best bet is to get reverse RIAA unit-- they are inexpensive--- and run a CD player , tuner or server through it for 3 weeks or so. KAB, Hagerman and others sell them or if you are handy you can build one simply enough. Aesthetix say they put about 100hrs on the units before they leave.
Sure the stock tubes are fine, but NOS takes it to a different level. When you are ready for that let me know and I can give you some tips.
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