Sony and dCS Shine at Music Lovers SF

[jtinn]

Maybe I am just not getting my point across. This obsession with DSD time and time again fails to address the fact that 99% of all the music recorded on in the 20th century, and most of the 21st century will NEVER be archived to DSD. Warner Bros had already by passed it. Abbey Road/EMI bypassed it.

The titles that do get to SACD are affordable by a small group of audiophiles who are willing to pay a huge premium for music they have purchased multiple times before. To get the Doors catalog on SACD, Chad Kassem had to write a check that would make you soil your self. He told me this first hand. So the end result is $50 LPs and $35 SACDS. This is going to be sold to the hardcore is small batches.

I wish it were not so my friend. I wish Sony had given away DSD workstations 12 years ago.

We have to stop pretending that the music that 99% of us listen to is available a some magic DSD download.

I just got 5 CDs in the mail today. Only one is available alternatively as a PCM download, and none of course as DSD.

So again, I buy music, not formats. When I see an audiophile buying a bunch of DSD files for the lure of the format, it proves to me they are doing it to see the "DSD" light up on their DAC.

I hate to be the one to disagree with you again, but you could not be more off base. Most desired titles will be made available (20th and 21st century) on DSD. I am already seeing it happening and mark my words, before the year is out, you will too. Sony, Warner, etc. The transfers will most of the time be transferred (archived) from tape to DSD.

I buy music in the best available format. If the same title is available in CD, 192 kHz or DSD, which do you think you would prefer to hear. Again, two different subjects.

Also, I would guess that Bernie said that prior to being aware of the plethora of DSD DAC availability. Also, he does what he is paid to do. What makes you think he has his finger on the pulse of what the audiophile wants.

I will tell you that I am listening to DSD files of the Eagles and it is "frighteningly" better than the 192 kHz version.

 

[jtinn]

When I heard the Vivaldi demo last year at Ears Nova, redbook sounded better through the system than did all their DSD/high rez files. Ughhh.... The high rez stuff was downright unlistenable. In fact, had I not heard the redbook CDs, I would have walked away thinking the Vivaldi wasn't very good. And that was through Boulder electronics/Rockport Aviors.

The only reason that would be is either he used a DAC that did not properly handle DSD or the files were not what they were supposed to be. If you come to THE Show Newport in three weeks I will do the comparison with you and I promise the result is entirely different.

 

[Andre Marc]

I hate to be the one to disagree with you again, but you could not be more off base. Most desired titles will be made available (20th and 21st century) on DSD. I am already seeing it happening and mark my words, before the year is out, you will too. Sony, Warner, etc. The transfers will most of the time be transferred (archived) from tape to DSD.

I buy music in the best available format. If the same title is available in CD, 192 kHz or DSD, which do you think you would prefer to hear. Again, two different subjects.

Also, I would guess that Bernie said that prior to being aware of the plethora of DSD DAC availability. Also, he does what he is paid to do. What makes you think he has his finger on the pulse of what the audiophile wants.

I will tell you that I am listening to DSD files of the Eagles and it is "frighteningly" better than the 192 kHz version.

Agree, that if a classic title is available in true DSD, archived from the original source, it would be my first choice.

Secondly, Jtinn, my friend, as much as I like your product lines, your statements here are preposterous.

"Most desired titles will be made available (20th and 21st century) on DSD. I am already seeing it happening and mark my words, before the year is out, you will too."

Please provide ANY current links to major label, major artist downloads. Esoteric jazz, and new classical recordings do not apply.

Secondly, the ones who are archiving to DSD, and cherry picking historic tiles, are the boutique labels, NOT the major labels.

I will remind you that a few years ago you were on various forums saying there would be a plethora of 384 Mhz downloads available.
How did that work out?

Most current major and small label projects in the pop and rock genre, which I consume heavily, aside from classic rock and jazz, is
done at 48 khz/24 bit. Seem they did not get the memo.

 

[Andre Marc]

I hate to be the one to disagree with you again, but you could not be more off base. Most desired titles will be made available (20th and 21st century) on DSD. I am already seeing it happening and mark my words, before the year is out, you will too. Sony, Warner, etc. The transfers will most of the time be transferred (archived) from tape to DSD.

I buy music in the best available format. If the same title is available in CD, 192 kHz or DSD, which do you think you would prefer to hear. Again, two different subjects.

Also, I would guess that Bernie said that prior to being aware of the plethora of DSD DAC availability. Also, he does what he is paid to do. What makes you think he has his finger on the pulse of what the audiophile wants.

I will tell you that I am listening to DSD files of the Eagles and it is "frighteningly" better than the 192 kHz version.

Pray tell me where you have a DSD archive of any Eagles album from the original Asylum/Warner master tapes?

And if you do...that is not available to the public.

 

[Andre Marc]

The only reason that would be is either he used a DAC that did not properly handle DSD or the files were not what they were supposed to be. If you come to THE Show Newport in three weeks I will do the comparison with you and I promise the result is entirely different.

I would imagine it would be a different result. But maybe he just thought the music sucked. In that case, it does not matter what the resolution is.

 

[audioguy]

I would imagine it would be a different result. But maybe he just thought the music sucked. In that case, it does not matter what the resolution is.

Here here!! (or is that hear hear !!)

 

[MylesBAstor]

The only reason that would be is either he used a DAC that did not properly handle DSD or the files were not what they were supposed to be. If you come to THE Show Newport in three weeks I will do the comparison with you and I promise the result is entirely different.

Don't doubt that Jonathan There had to be something wrong. But everyone else there thought it sounded great

 

[jtinn]

Secondly, Jtinn, my friend, as much as I like your product lines, your statements here are preposterous.

"Most desired titles will be made available (20th and 21st century) on DSD. I am already seeing it happening and mark my words, before the year is out, you will too."

Please provide ANY current links to major label, major artist downloads. Esoteric jazz, and new classical recordings do not apply.

Most current major and small label projects in the pop and rock genre, which I consume heavily, aside from classic rock and jazz, is
done at 48 khz/24 bit. Seem they did not get the memo.

Please re-read what you have put into bold text. I have already answered your question.

I will remind you that a few years ago you were on various forums saying there would be a plethora of 384 Mhz downloads available.
How did that work out?

Although I do not recall saying anything like that about DXD (384 kHZ), I am positive I would not have said anything like that about 384 Mhz.

Andre, let's put an end to this discussion as you are obviously bothered and getting aggressive (which is certainly not my intention).

 

[microstrip]

I fail to understand how people can conclude anything about formats listening for an afternoon in a show or in a shop, using a single type of equipment. Unless some one lives for a reasonable period with each of these equipments and listens to many types of recordings he risks comparing the mastering or the particular hardware implementation, but not the format.

 

[Andre Marc]

Please re-read what you have put into bold text. I have already answered your question.



Although I do not recall saying anything like that about DXD (384 kHZ), I am positive I would not have said anything like that about 384 Mhz.

Andre, let's put an end to this discussion as you are obviously bothered and getting aggressive (which is certainly not my intention).

JT, please accept my apologies if you felt I was coming off as aggressive. Definitely not my intention!
As a matter of fact I look forward to hearing your usual great sound at Newport.

However, I am asking a crystal clear question, I would appreciate an answer.

Please tell me how we will have a good chunk of the most popular music of the last century available
in DSD file format. I would love to know. If you can't give me an answer I will have to conclude that
you are blowing smoke.

I am just trying to get you to substantiate a claim that is exactly the opposite of what I am hearing from the
mastering engineers and label employees, that I know.

 

[mep]

JT, please accept my apologies if you felt I was coming off as aggressive. Definitely not my intention!
As a matter of fact I look forward to hearing your usual great sound at Newport.

However, I am asking a crystal clear question, I would appreciate an answer.

Please tell me how we will have a good chunk of the most popular music of the last century available
in DSD file format. I would love to know. If you can't give me an answer I will have to conclude that
you are blowing smoke.

Andre- Your last reply about JTinn blowing smoke wasn't aggressive at all. That comment would have made a Quaker proud.

 

[jtinn]

JT, please accept my apologies if you felt I was coming off as aggressive. Definitely not my intention!
As a matter of fact I look forward to hearing your usual great sound at Newport.

I too look forward to spending time with you in our room at Newport.

However, I am asking a crystal clear question, I would appreciate an answer.

Please tell me how we will have a good chunk of the most popular music of the last century available
in DSD file format. I would love to know. If you can't give me an answer I will have to conclude that
you are blowing smoke.

I am just trying to get you to substantiate a claim that is exactly the opposite of what I am hearing from the
mastering engineers and label employees, that I know.

Unfortunately I am not at liberty to say, hence the reason for the "before the year is out" statement and it is not blowing smoke.

 

[Andre Marc]

I too look forward to spending time with you in our room at Newport.


Unfortunately I am not at liberty to say, hence the reason for the "before the year is out" statement and it is not blowing smoke.

Same here JT! The problem is your rooms are always crowded...cause you get good sound!

Ok, then you must be in on one of the best kept secrets of all time.

if I don't see some of the biggest selling artists of our time as pure DSD downloads by years
end then expect me to give you the business.

I am talking Pink Floyd, Stones, Beatles, Bee Gees, The Who, Led Zep, Eagles, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Hendrix, Frank Sinatra, etc.

I don't want to hear about esoteric chamber music or jazz.

 

[jtinn]

Same here JT! The problem is your rooms are always crowded...cause you get good sound!

Ok, then you must be in on one of the best kept secrets of all time.

if I don't see some of the biggest selling artists of our time as pure DSD downloads by years
end then expect me to give you the business.

I am talking Pink Floyd, Stones, Beatles, Bee Gees, The Who, Led Zep, Eagles, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Hendrix, Frank Sinatra, etc.

I don't want to hear about esoteric chamber music or jazz.

If I am wrong, bring it on

 

[caesar]

I heard this Sony speaker at Axpona, and with a $2500 Rega front end, it was one of the best sounds at the show. I would like to see someone in the media or a serious amateur compare the Sony to the similarly priced Wilson Alexia.

As for DSD releases, I asked the pictured Sony rep / speaker designer if Sony was re-releasing their collection on DSD, and he did not think so.

Like everyone, I hope he is wrong!

 

[mep]

Here is the bottom line as I see it from my perch: The major recording labels are desperate to sell music and make money. Digital music copying and ITunes pretty much killed the record labels established business model of making large sums of money through sales of entire albums. All of the record labels would be delirious with joy if they could resell their existing catalog of music by the album and pump new life into recording new music and making money from that as well.

The problem as I see it though is that the general public has never heard of SACDs, stand-alone D/A converters or DSD files. The major record labels would have to undertake a massive marketing campaign (and they could join hands with some hardware industry partners and in the case of Sony, they are one and the same) to raise awareness to the general population that there is another whole world out there with regards to playback fidelity now available. I'm just not sure enough people even if they were educated about DSD would give a damn, and that includes some people on this forum who think RBCD is all we need to achieve musical nirvana.

 

[Andre Marc]

Here is the bottom line as I see it from my perch: The major recording labels are desperate to sell music and make money. Digital music copying and ITunes pretty much killed the record labels established business model of making large sums of money through sales of entire albums. All of the record labels would be delirious with joy if they could resell their existing catalog of music by the album and pump new life into recording new music and making money from that as well.

The problem as I see it though is that the general public has never heard of SACDs, stand-alone D/A converters or DSD files. The major record labels would have to undertake a massive marketing campaign (and they could join hands with some hardware industry partners and in the case of Sony, they are one and the same) to raise awareness to the general population that there is another whole world out there with regards to playback fidelity now available. I'm just not sure enough people even if they were educated about DSD would give a damn, and that includes some people on this forum who think RBCD is all we need to achieve musical nirvana.

Perhaps you are overlooking one major aspect of this situation.

We have to ask:

Are the record labels going to go through the time and expense of taking out every analgo master tape and rearchiving them to DSD?
Since they have already archived their catalogs to 24 bit digital, it would be a helluva hard expense to justify.

Since they are selling millions of tracks via iTunes in 256 AAC, it is not a a ridiculous notion to think they are going to find
religion and miraculously now care about audiophiles who want DSD?

How about the enormous amount of NATIVE PCM/Pro Tools and equivalent recordings?

Lastly, 99% of new releases are recorded with DAWs to PCM. I still consume enormous.
amounts of new music. The last record I bought was Patti Griffen's sensational American Kid recorded
at 24/48 PCM.

 

[mep]

Perhaps you are overlooking one major aspect of this situation.

We have to ask:

Are the record labels going to go through the time and expense of taking out every analgo master tape and rearchiving them to DSD?
Since they have already archived their catalogs to 24 bit digital, it would be a helluva hard expense to justify.

They would do it in a heartbeat if they knew they would sell large numbers of each album.

Since they are selling millions of tracks via iTunes in 256 AAC, it is not a a ridiculous notion to think they are going to find
religion and miraculously now care about audiophiles who want DSD?

You're mixing apples and hubcaps together. The record labels are selling millions of single songs on iTunes. However, iTunes is selling each single for $.99. The record labels obviously aren't getting $.99 for each download and they have to split a portion of their money with the recording artist. The record labels are making a fraction of the money they used to make in the good old days when they controlled the distribution of the music and people bought albums and not singles. Recording artists are forced to tour now days if they want to make any real money because it won't come through the sale of singles on iTunes. So, to answer your above question about it being a ridiculous notion to think that record labels are going to find religion and care about audiophiles who want DSD, I think it's a ridiculous notion to think that the record labels wouldn't release every damn title they have that would sell in large quantities to the general public. And notice I said "general public." Selling just to audiophiles would not be enough of a financial incentive for the major labels.

How about the enormous amount of NATIVE PCM/Pro Tools and equivalent recordings?

Who cares? The major labels are sitting on tons of master tapes that could all be converted to DSD and sold in album form if the market was there to purchase them. As for the enormous amount of native PCM recordings made with Pro Tools, by the time you filter out all of the compressed crap recordings, anything that is left that people care about they can still buy in their native format.

Lastly, 99% of new releases are recorded with DAWs to PCM. I still consume enormous.
amounts of new music. The last record I bought was Patti Griffen's sensational American Kid recorded
at 24/48 PCM.

Are you bragging or complaining? At least it wasn't 16/44.1.

 

[caesar]

Let's forget items that live on the long tail (unique items with relatively small quantities of each sold), for a moment. Companies like music direct seem to release the more popular titles in batches of 2,000 SACD's and sell them for $30 each. If it weren't profitable, they wouldn't do it. I would guess something like some Rolling Stones albums would sell more than 2,000 copies if they were marketed by someone more mainstream than music direct.

How much does cost to release something in DSD?

 

[mep]

Caesar-The Rolling Stones albums were released as dual-layer CD/SACDs. I walked into a Best Buy years ago looking for them and when I asked the sales clerk where their SACDs were, he looked at me and said "What are SACDs?"