State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[gleeds]

This is great dialogue and felt like a good time to interject. I would argue the high-end is anything but dead. Just take a look at the pace of new products and new companies being launched in a way not seen in my 40 years of being associated with this business.

I work closely with several very high-end companies whose products are designed and built by people in their mid to late thirties. These firms are IMO redefining what's possible and more importantly the cost of entry to achieve "what's best" level sound. Generational change at leading brands such as Daryl Wilson of Wilson Audio and the Gullman brothers at MSB is also good for the industry's future.

If anyone wants a glimpse into how younger audiophiles are being lured into the hobby take a look at John Darko's YouTube channel. There he covers relatively affordable, digitally connected systems that make a truly good sound. Of course, it helps that he's into techno and does all he can to make listening to music on a quality audio system relatable and cool again! Also, look at a firm out of Denmark, Buchart Audio, a direct-to-consumer brand that is redefining what's possible in terms of sound quality and design in a well under $10k complete audio system.

 

[marty]

I would argue the high-end is anything but dead.

That's why I'm eager to go to AXPONA next week. Haven't been to a show since AXPONA 2019 BP (Before the Pandemic). I''ll be curious to see the state of the high end now.

There seems to be a growing number of companies that are marketing direct to consumer and which certainly get no love from dealers. Remember the system you heard at my place? For the TV, I use a $150 Schiit DAC so I don't have to use my Lampi tubes. I don't know how they do what they do, but I'm shocked at how good it is. To your point, my guess is that there are many such companies and the list is growing. Many are probably not in the upper echeleon, but my guess is that some have genuine high end credibility at increasingly affordable prices.

 

[Al M.]

That's why I'm eager to go to AXPONA next week. Haven't been to a show since AXPONA 2019 BP (Before the Pandemic). I''ll be curious to see the state of the high end now.

There seems to be a growing number of companies that are marketing direct to consumer and which certainly get no love from dealers. Remember the system you heard at my place? For the TV, I use a $150 Schiit DAC so I don't have to use my Lampi tubes. I don't know how they do what they do, but I'm shocked at how good it is. To your point, my guess is that there are many such companies and the list is growing. Many are probably not in the upper echeleon, but my guess is that some have genuine high end credibility at increasingly affordable prices.

As I suggested before (post #213 on this page), today you can get much better sound quality than 20, 30 years ago for the same inflation-adjusted dollars. This is a story that often gets ignored among all the complaints about higher and higher prices in the high end.

 

[bonzo75]

As I suggested before (post #213 on this page), today you can get much better sound quality than 20, 30 years ago for the same inflation-adjusted dollars. This is a story that often gets ignored among all the complaints about higher and higher prices in the high end.

You would not know because you have never investigated Altec, Western electric Jbl tad and vintage tannoys. If you have just put pics or videos of the systems you visited. There is zero history of you having done so on the forum

 

[Lee]

As I suggested before (post #213 on this page), today you can get much better sound quality than 20, 30 years ago for the same inflation-adjusted dollars. This is a story that often gets ignored among all the complaints about higher and higher prices in the high end.

I try to point that out every time the price discussion comes up.

 

[microstrip]

(...) There seems to be a growing number of companies that are marketing direct to consumer and which certainly get no love from dealers. Remember the system you heard at my place? For the TV, I use a $150 Schiit DAC so I don't have to use my Lampi tubes. I don't know how they do what they do, but I'm shocked at how good it is. To your point, my guess is that there are many such companies and the list is growing. Many are probably not in the upper echeleon, but my guess is that some have genuine high end credibility at increasingly affordable prices.

The secret of successful sound reproduction in the high-end is in the choice of equipment adapted to preference and listening space, with great emphasis to their interrelation ( what we often call system synergy). As you say most current equipment has high quality and is adequate to system building, but without support of a dealer or a knowledge common people will seldom assemble a decent system.

We can not weight the audiophile community by the WBF standards - enthusiastic people who devote plenty of time to the hobby. IMHO the hobby needs dealers and human contact, not internet sales.

I am not as enthusiastic as many others considering evolution of high-end products - IMHO the gap between SOTA and good high-end has enlarged along the last five years, both in performance and cost but unfortunately signicantly more in the cost factor.

 

[Lee]

We can not weight the audiophile community by the WBF standards - enthusiastic people who devote plenty of time to the hobby. IMHO the hobby needs dealers and human contact, not internet sales.

Great point. The newbie audiophile is the one who needs the most help in both setup and understanding complexities like component synergy and basic foundational tweaks. A dealer is really needed. The secondary issue is the online stores often offer better discounts.

 

[Al M.]

Great point. The newbie audiophile is the one who needs the most help in both setup and understanding complexities like component synergy and basic foundational tweaks. A dealer is really needed. The secondary issue is the online stores often offer better discounts.

I think many dealers are not of much help. I have learned about set-up and system synergy on the web and from friends. As others have suggested here, I believe, TAS should have set-up guides. Just component reviews do not suffice. Also, I think with set-up guides and the like you can draw in interested readers more than with just reviews.

 

[Lee]

I think many dealers are not of much help. I have learned about set-up and system synergy on the web and from friends. As others have suggested here, I believe, TAS should have set-up guides. Just component reviews do not suffice. Also, I think with set-up guides and the like you can draw in interested readers more than with just reviews.

Dealer quality varies but I still find dealers offer better advice on average than random friends. Ideally though, one should hire an expert like Jim Smith or Stirling Trayle for setup.

We just published a Global Dealer Showcase with some setup articles and hi-fi+ has an article on choosing speakers. We have written many setup articles and Robert Harley has been successful with his guide to high end audio.

 

[microstrip]

I think many dealers are not of much help. I have learned about set-up and system synergy on the web and from friends. As others have suggested here, I believe, TAS should have set-up guides. Just component reviews do not suffice. Also, I think with set-up guides and the like you can draw in interested readers more than with just reviews.

What are exactly meaning by "set-up" guides? Magazines have occasional articles on the subject of set-up, but IMHO in the high-end there is not such thing as cookbooks - except for a small group in WBF, there is no actual agreement on almost every subject, although we love debating them!

 

[PeterA]

As I suggested before (post #213 on this page), today you can get much better sound quality than 20, 30 years ago for the same inflation-adjusted dollars. This is a story that often gets ignored among all the complaints about higher and higher prices in the high end.

I try to point that out every time the price discussion comes up.

How about 40 years ago? I don't know how much my Micro Seiki SX 8000 II cost back in 1984, but I would not think it was more than $4,000, a huge amount of money back then. In inflation adjusted dollars, that is $13,772.62 according to google inflation calculator. Name one turntable today for under $14,000 that comes close to the sound and build quality of that Micro flagship built during the height of the vinyl era from arguably one of the best turntable manufacturers. Even if it was the outrageous price of $10,000 in 1984, that would only be about $35K.

I think the same can be said for Altec VOTT, JBL, Tannoy etc speakers that Bonzo mentions. Cables are another example. Cables for peanuts back then are competitive with cables today, some vintage being much better. How about Scott, McIntosh and other electronics of a few watts on an efficient speaker?

I don't know enough about what was available then and the prices, but I have heard some of what is available now, and I am not overly impressed. Perhaps it is unrealistic expectations or not enough exposure to these great $10-50K systems. I am simply not convinced of the above statements. I suppose my idea of progress and advancing sound differs from others. Standards for good sound vary widely.

 

[rbbert]

How about 40 years ago? I don't know how much my Micro Seiki SX 8000 II cost back in 1984, but I would not think it was more than $4,000, a huge amount of money back then. In inflation adjusted dollars, that is $13,772.62 according to google inflation calculator. Name one turntable today for under $14,000 that comes close to the sound and build quality of that Micro flagship built during the height of the vinyl era from arguably one of the best turntable manufacturers. Even if it was the outrageous price of $10,000 in 1984, that would only be about $35K.

I think the same can be said for Altec VOTT, JBL, Tannoy etc speakers that Bonzo mentions. Cables are another example. Cables for peanuts back then are competitive with cables today, some vintage being much better. How about Scott, McIntosh and other electronics of a few watts on an efficient speaker?

I don't know enough about what was available then and the prices, but I have heard some of what is available now, and I am not overly impressed. Perhaps it is unrealistic expectations or not enough exposure to these great $10-50K systems. I am simply not convinced of the above statements. I suppose my idea of progress and advancing sound differs from others. Standards for good sound vary widely.

Why don’t you know what was available then? I went through a few systems between ‘75 and ‘85, and I would expect others here did too. At local audio club meetings (about half the time at member’s houses, the other half at a couple of local dealers) we listened to some of the best and latest (late ‘70’s “latest”) as well as some well maintained systems using components from the ‘60’s, including big JBL’s (no Paragon, though) Altecs and Tannoys. Favored electronics were early ARC and tubed Marantz and McIntosh, with a smattering of Mark Levinson and Threshold SS. About the only non-generic cables around back then were Fultons, which were regarded with some skepticism.

All that was great at the time, especially the affordability of almost any of it. Other than the afforability I can’t really say I miss it.

 

[howiebrou]

19 million views. A few more than your average audiophile you tube channel.

 

[gleeds]

It's good to see some folks actually think an experienced dealer can make a difference. Getting someone with decades of experience synergizing systems and that possess extensive knowledge of room acoustics, power delivery, cabling, and component/speaker interactions is IMO well worth investing in. Of course, others may disagree and certainly, all dealers are not equal. The better ones offer generous trade-in/trade-up allowances and will take something back if it fails to meet the customer's expectations. Sure they add cost but also provide part of the value proposition, assuming of course they treat customers with integrity and truly know their stuff!

I agree with Lee and Marty, no doubt there are some exciting things happening at the entry-level of the high- end which would be celebrated and promoted. Here's why: I started with a Dyna stereo 120 kit, Garrard SL-42 table, Grado cartridge, and Fairfax speakers. I'm a long way from that system today but it sure made me love music and kept me searching for ever better equipment to play it on.

Next, even though I trade in newer equipment, I absolutely love vintage gear, albeit it's a different experience than today's top high-end gear. Does it compete with today's top offerings, perhaps in some cases like the aforementioned Micro Seiki SS-8000? I personally own rebuilt Quad 63's, a Will Vincent Dynaco ST-70, a hot-rodded HK Citation 11, and Micro Seiki DDX-1000 with 9" and 12" MA-505 arms.

For those of you going down the vintage pre-owned road check out Sky-Fi Audio in New Jersey. They have all types of vintage gear and the best part is before it goes out the door its' either fully serviced or repaired so you know what your getting! Just another example of why technically competent people that make their living from audio can be well worth seeking out, reducing both risk, time, and cost over the long run.

https://skyfiaudio.com/

Lastly, I'm not afraid to say I have found contributors on WBF who have taught me a thing or two through their intellect and passionate exploration of their chosen systems along the way. No matter how long I have been in this business I'm always learning!

 

[tima]

My non-Audio friends are almost always astounded when they come to my house for a dinner party and I play some music.

Have any then spent $20k on a stereo system for themselves?

 

[howiebrou]

There is more competition for the scarce entertainment dollar. But that is an argument in favor of influencers.

I agree. As much as I find some influencers cringe-worthy, there is no denying their significance.

 

[howiebrou]

Have any then spent $20k on a stereo system for themselves?

I have yet to know of any non-audiophile friends who visit, who have, as a result of listening to my system, gone out and purchased any audio gear, let alone a 20k system, which is most people's minds, completely ludicrous. In fact I would say that 99% of non-audiophile visitors never even ask for it to be turned on. The few that do seem interested, just want to take a photo with the speakers because they have never seen ones so large.
For my own journey I never got the bug because I visited someone's house with a nice system either. It was gazing in the shop front that drew my initial attention. Alas, most shop fronts have disappeared and many high end stores are hidden away now. In contrast, many watch and automobile shop fronts continue to be the rule rather than the exception.

 

[KeithR]

Keith,

Thanks for your valuable feedback. I think a younger group of reviewers does bring a different perspective. So we are working with younger folks on our upcoming YouTube channel and other channels.

But I also see value in older, more experienced reviewers as well. They have more institutional knowledge of the technology advancements as well as a wider and deeper base of knowledge of what brands and specific models sound like. They also are more experienced in the critical stage of setup. They have longer history with a manufacturer so that may help "open the kimono" a bit more in certain situations. So that leads to a very nuanced and insightful review with the right people when done well.

Fair enough. And I applaud you for the direction you are taking - agree that more channels of communication is the future and that in ten years, the hobby is in great peril if we don’t get a younger audience. Reviewers/reviews wont be just 4 pages as Elliot mentions and much more exciting content infuses life into the high end.

 

[PeterA]

Why don’t you know what was available then? I went through a few systems between ‘75 and ‘85, and I would expect others here did too.

How presumptuous. I was off in boarding school studying and playing sports. I was a teenager on a small allowance living in a dormitory. I had no idea what good audio was in those days.

 

[PeterA]

Have any then spent $20k on a stereo system for themselves?

Nope.