State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Sampajanna]

Speaking as a relative newcomer compared to many here, I would bring up a potentially controversial issue in the mainstream audio in magazines, forums and online reviews, which is that most of the reviewers are elderly and so all and everything revolves around the standard of “analogue” and the “old days” of vinyl. I know analogue has its charm and I believe it can sound great. I have heard analogue set ups that sound way better than digital and also digital that are better than analogue. I am also open to the possibility that all things equal at the very top of performance analogue still edges digital out. But I do NOT want to collect things, especially as records get more and more expensive. I am not interested in a house full of records and all that comes with that. Of course, I am not asking that anyone share in that sentiment. It’s just me. I listen to a lot of music, and so would need a huge collection. And I dont have any nostalgia surrounding records. My rig has always been digital. Sure, I havent been into this for 40 yrs, only 10-15. I just have different priorities.

If one spent decades perfecting a vinyl rig, and you have lots of time and joy therein, then of course all digital will be relative to that. My point is that the references to ”analogue sound,” by which I mean vinyl not analogue vs digital, is lost on many newcomers who don‘t have that experience. I dont know what to make of an ad that says something like “digital so good it is like analogue” or other such references. I suspect other relative newcomers may feel the same.

 

[KeithR]

Keith, what is a younger “stud” reviewer? Are you talking about Jay on YouTube? He gets a lot of views and commentary on his YouTube review channel. He reviews gear that some old guys on WBF aspire to owning. It’s contemporary and is expensive.

If Magico or Wilson or YG or FYNE could produce a speaker that sounds like the Altec A7 or some JBLs for under 10 grand, people would surely buy them. Can any contemporary speaker under $20,000 compete with that sound?

I'm not sure who the young up and coming guys are - but "Audio Bacon" could be one. Jay on YouTube doesn't want to review gear, rather just to be an influencer. Ironically his biggest draw are his speaking videos, not music ones.

Interesting you reference the A7 as there is a nice debate in this month's Stereophile regarding that speaker vs. the JBL 4367.

I think the resurgence of Technics, Yamaha, etc. allows for better entry into the high end than 10 years ago. I know a dealer who quit a well known hifi electronics brand as Technics was better at lower cost. The uber high end is still absurd, but the "middle" has a ray of light now. A reason to be bullish hifi.

the "old industry model" referenced above is really just manufacturers making fewer, more expensive products sold to wealthy, older audiophiles which has been the trend for a decade. that business model makes no sense to me in ten years.

 

[Kingrex]

Kingrex said:
I don't agree with Elliott that video of manufacturer will grow industry recognition and get young people interested.

Rex, I never said that! Please don't put words in my mouth.
My Youtube channel has zero to do with young people or them being interested. My channel is to show the people behind the products and perhaps the viewers to have a better understanding of the people behind the products. I have no expectations that this will induce new young clients since it isn't aimed at them

Sorry, My mistake.

 

[Kingrex]

19 million views. A few more than your average audiophile you tube channel.

A very well done video. Thats how to get young people to part with their money.

 

[howiebrou]

A very well done video. Thats how to get young people to part with their money.

Now imagine he did that with a high end system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have a little bit of insight into the potential interest in better sound by people of different ages and very different interest and career backgrounds from my Audiophile Café club on Clubhouse. The club has 2,100 members.

It has been interesting for me because it has exposed me to a far wider range of ages, interests and backgrounds then we enjoy here on WBF. Very, very few of those 2,100 members are people we would consider to be audiophiles. They are regular people -- non-audiophiles -- who simply enjoy music, typically via streaming of some kind. The club also has many professional musicians; many pro-audio recording, mixing and mastering engineers; and many singers. It has been very interesting for me to learn the perspectives of these different groups.

The club has many basic music lovers who enjoy listening to music in their cars and on their ear pods and on their iPhones, but literally are unaware that greatly more emotionally-involving musical playback systems exist. Very few of these lay people are aware that any form of music which is not digital or streaming even exists.

Most of these people have never heard of, or been exposed to, the concept of deliberate action to improve sound quality by putting stereo systems together. A number of singers and musicians had no idea that this hobby existed, and were enthralled to learn that we audiophiles put our systems together to honor the beauty of their music.

I agree with KeithR that the business model of selling fewer and fewer ever more expensive systems to aging Boomers is not a viable business model in the long term. Over the last year vinyl aficionados on Audiophile Café have been the procuring cause of the purchase by club members of about 10 new turntables in the $600 to $1,800 range. That is not a purchase rate which will rescue analog playback from expiring Boomers.

I think the question is: how do we expose far more people who love music to the greater emotional enjoyment which can be achieved by playing their favorite music back on an entry-level high-end audio system?

 

[morricab]

I have yet to know of any non-audiophile friends who visit, who have, as a result of listening to my system, gone out and purchased any audio gear, let alone a 20k system, which is most people's minds, completely ludicrous. In fact I would say that 990% of non-audiophile visitors never even ask for it to be turned on. The few that do seem interested, just want to take a photo with the speakers because they have never seen one so large.
For my own journey I never got the bug because I visited someone's house with a nice system either. It was gazing in the shop front that drew my initial attention. Alas, most shop fronts have disappeared and many high end stores are hidden away now. In contrast, many watch and automobile shop fronts continue to be the rule rather than the exception.

You need to bribe them with 20k to go out and buy a system...that’s how I do it . Or hire Ked to break their legs if they don’t!

 

[tima]

How about 40 years ago? I don't know how much my Micro Seiki SX 8000 II cost back in 1984, but I would not think it was more than $4,000, a huge amount of money back then. In inflation adjusted dollars, that is $13,772.62 according to google inflation calculator. Name one turntable today for under $14,000 that comes close to the sound and build quality of that Micro flagship built during the height of the vinyl era from arguably one of the best turntable manufacturers. Even if it was the outrageous price of $10,000 in 1984, that would only be about $35K.

That table, from the pictures I've seen, is built like tank - a high precision tank. What is comprable today? The new SME 60 is probably north of $60k USD. The Air Force One? At $100k? I don't know what a used MS SX8000 II costs today - I see one on ebay for $40k -- if it is in top condition, that sounds like a relative bargain.

 

[tima]

The club has many basic music lovers who love listening to music in their cars and on their headphones and on their iPhones, but literally are unaware that greatly more emotionally-involving musical playback systems exist. Very few of these lay people are aware that any form of music which is not digital or streaming even exists.

One interesting aspect from Ron's observation is people listening to music while on the move; in effect listening is a secondary activity or accompaniment. Maybe their tunes help keep them moving.

If these active listeners became aware of emotionally-involving musical playback systems would some be willing to sit still and listen, say for 20-40 minutes for 2-3 times a week, without something else going on? Some may go to concerts that are two-three times longer but probably not two or three times a week. And concerts typically are a highly visual event.

I suppose those who consider product sales from a consumer life-cycle view could argue that at some point these listeners-on-the-go will 'settle down' and look for a higher quality experience from a stationary music-only system that requires space bigger than their head or their car to enjoy. Does that presume a switch in attitude from hearing music as an accompaniment to listening to music as a primary focus? Has anyone trod that path?

I'll speculate that musicians and singers and probably "many pro-audio recording, mixing and mastering engineers" are already there in terms of music as a primary focus. What a 'target audience. While many artistes shy away from commercial activity, that group is probably the only ones I'd consider as viable influencers.

 

[bonzo75]

One interesting aspect from Ron's observation is people listening to music while on the move; in effect listening is a secondary activity or accompaniment. Maybe their tunes help keep them moving.

If these active listeners became aware of emotionally-involving musical playback systems would some be willing to sit still and listen, say for 20-40 minutes for 2-3 times a week, without something else going on? Some may go to concerts that are two-three times longer but probably not two or three times a week. And concerts typically are a highly visual event.

So young people who work the longest hours, are dating, or trying to bring up young kids sit still 2- 3 times a week, to enjoy music at home instead of Netflix etc or dining out or sports. By spending on their equipment. And of course they will have the iron control, as common among audiophiles, to not spend more and to control how much time they spend on the system.

And the retired whose kids have left enjoy music on the move?

 

[tima]

So young people who work the longest hours, are dating, or trying to bring up young kids sit still 2- 3 times a week, to enjoy music at home instead of Netflix etc or dining out or sports. By spending on their equipment and they will have the iron control, as common among audiophiles, to not spend more and to control how much time they spend on the system.

And the retired whose kids have left enjoy music on the move?

I think you got my point.

 

[bonzo75]

The reason this hobby cannot grow is whoever on this forum is actively seeking to expand it, is rational only if he is profiting from the expansion. The other audiophiles are simply looking to rationalize their own senseless behavior. This hobby is about upgraditis and curiositis - the only reason we are all here is that when we started, we wondered what would happen with an alternate piece of gear/approach. And that "itis", or itch grew and kept us here long term. We formed audiophile associations, and friendships, ego, emotional ups and downs, became associated with this small group.

We should encourage the young only to get into good things. I try to get them into some fitness regimen, or buy my non-audiophile friends tickets to classical concerts when they are in London, so that they get into music. I am a converter by nature. I always try to get my veggie friends to eat fish and meat - I succeeded with my childhood friend after he turned 40. Heck, when we first moved from India to London, a friend of mine picked up a curry with me, thought it was vegetarian, and loved it. After he finished I told him with a cheeky smile that it was beef. He was religious and did not speak to me for a week.

But even a serial converter like me who tries to get Wilson Magico owners to move to better speakers, asks my non-audiophile friends to stay away from audiophilia. Would you encourage them to do drugs or be an alcoholic (different from buying your young 'un one glass of wine when they are 18). You want to do something good for music stop pretending that's what you are here for and buy them tickets to concerts or to music classes. It is good that some of them can afford headphones or small systems. That is not the hobby, unless they develop the itch.

Let this hobby die peacefully. Enjoy your addiction while it lasts. It is great that all owners of a gear approach try to defend their choice here to stroke their own ego, but investigate what you don't know. If you haven't heard Western electrics, it is new for you, does not matter if it was made over a 100 years ago.

 

[rbbert]

How presumptuous. I was off in boarding school studying and playing sports. I was a teenager on a small allowance living in a dormitory. I had no idea what good audio was in those days.

I apologize; for some reason I thought you were older. In any case, as one who was probably even more involved then than now I can assure you that however desirable some vintage products may be now, the vast majority were of poorer quality in every way than what we have now. Among other things the importance of wire and passive parts was not well appreciated.

 

[Sampajanna]

The reason this hobby cannot grow is whoever on this forum is actively seeking to expand it, is rational only if he is profiting from the expansion. The other audiophiles are simply looking to rationalize their own senseless behavior. This hobby is about upgraditis and curiositis - the only reason we are all here is that when we started, we wondered what would happen with an alternate piece of gear/approach. And that "itis", or itch grew and kept us here long term. We formed audiophile associations, and friendships, ego, emotional ups and downs, became associated with this small group.

We should encourage the young only to get into good things. I try to get them into some fitness regimen, or buy my non-audiophile friends tickets to classical concerts when they are in London, so that they get into music. I am a converter by nature. I always try to get my veggie friends to eat fish and meat - I succeeded with my childhood friend after he turned 40. Heck, when we first moved from India to London, a friend of mine picked up a curry with me, thought it was vegetarian, and loved it. After he finished I told him with a cheeky smile that it was beef. He was religious and did not speak to me for a week.

But even a serial converter like me who tries to get Wilson Magico owners to move to better speakers, asks my non-audiophile friends to stay away from audiophilia. Would you encourage them to do drugs or be an alcoholic (different from buying your young 'un one glass of wine when they are 18). You want to do something good for music stop pretending that's what you are here for and buy them tickets to concerts or to music classes. It is good that some of them can afford headphones or small systems. That is not the hobby, unless they develop the itch.

Let this hobby die peacefully. Enjoy your addiction while it lasts. It is great that all owners of a gear approach try to defend their choice here to stroke their own ego, but investigate what you don't know. If you haven't heard Western electrics, it is new for you, does not matter if it was made over a 100 years ago.

Despicable.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think the state of the industry is great .
Great buys can be had second hand at a good price , things are made to difficult / complicated for newbies they instantly are led into a cable maze / power conditioner swamp ......lost forever
I can even buy R2R studio machines at a good price .

If you wanna keep up with the latest / greatest of magazines you re in for a hard time .
Respect older designs and you can buy great gear .

I could spend 10 K and be a relatively happy listener .
ML 390 S direct in a ML 432 on Avalon ascendant speakers .
And for 20-25 K ,
Same CD player , CAT Ultimate MK2 , CAT JL 2 on a magico V3 s

Ps I spend no money on cables / power conditioners , No headaches lol

 

[Al M.]

Despicable.

Or funny .

 

[tima]

The reason this hobby cannot grow is whoever on this forum is actively seeking to expand it, is rational only if he is profiting from the expansion. The other audiophiles are simply looking to rationalize their own senseless behavior. This hobby is about upgraditis and curiositis - the only reason we are all here is that when we started, we wondered what would happen with an alternate piece of gear/approach. And that "itis", or itch grew and kept us here long term. We formed audiophile associations, and friendships, ego, emotional ups and downs, became associated with this small group

There is some of that - you do see it in other audio forums too. What we don't hear from as much is those who have a system but have stopped upgrading - omg people who are content.

But there are also people here who love music - music reproduced well in their homes. I would probably spend more money on concerts and less on audio equipment if I too had London-like venues and top performers. But I don't have anything like that here in flyover country. Instead I try to bring those performances into my home. Through WBF - mostly videos - I have gotten exposure to and recommendations for records I don't think I could get elsewhere. So it's not all upgraditis.

 

[bonzo75]

There is some of that - you do see it in other audio forums too. What we don't hear from as much is those who have a system but have stopped upgrading - omg people who are content.

But there are also people here who love music - music reproduced well in their homes. I would probably spend more money on concerts and less on audio equipment if I too had London-like venues and top performers. But I don't have anything like that here in flyover country. Instead I try to bring those performances into my home. Through WBF - mostly videos - I have gotten exposure to and recommendations for records I don't think I could get elsewhere. So it's not all upgraditis.

I mean all audio forums not just this one.

Some people also have a music hobby, but take you for example, there is no reason to upgrade from the equivalent of Sasha in any model to that of Alexia equivalent on the pretext of music, or from Monaco 1.5 to Monaco 2.0, or to change the platter of a techdas, etc etc. That is 'itis'

 

[spiritofmusic]

Right now, how would this hobby change in perception if any number of Kanye West, Harry Styles, David Grohl, Daniel Craig, Emma Watson, Adele, Tom Hardy, etc, spent the majority of their lifestyle interviews and fluff video blogs fully enthusing about their life changing hobbies of audiophilia, and why they'd beseech their young fans to get into serious listening at home as a dedicated hobby?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have one other subjective (and admittedly statistically invalid) observation to report from the public-at-large Clubhouse experience which I found surprising, and which may be interesting to this group. I have the impression that more young people today (starting with teenagers) are trying to "make music" than in earlier generations. And they are trying to "make music" and release music entirely on their laptops. I encountered young people who consider themselves to be "recording engineers" who operate entirely on their laptops.

Occasionally when I asked about musicians playing music together in a recording studio in real time and recording that in real time these "recording engineers" sometimes didn't seem to understand what I was talking about. One time a participant answered: "yeah, I think I have a plug-in for that." This suggested to me that us traditional audiophiles/music lovers have a partly mistaken impression of the music-making world today.

Maybe the way forward for the industry is somehow to make music lovers take the first step to improve sound quality by improving the sound quality of the listening experience on their laptops? But then how do we encourage laptop music lovers to make the leap to a system which takes up space in a room and costs a few thousand dollars?