Sublime Sound

[morricab]

Thank you andromedaaudio. Natural sound is now the path I am following. The table is a very simple and clean design. Very elegant and functional, but the key is that it is built to an exceptional high level. Nothing extra and the sound is really no sound. People think massive steel just rings and is bad for audio. I hear the opposite. If well implemented, there is nothing like it.

The LAMM electronics are superb sounding. I was not able to directly compare it to alternatives, but I could tell. It has the SET magic and seemed a strong contributor to the "natural" sound I heard at David's. We did not listen to the hybrid amps, just different levels of phono, pre and SET amps.

I will have more to share in a dedicated thread about the visit. In my system thread, I am hoping to only discuss what is directly effecting my system at home. David's place in at a completely different level from everything I have heard, and not just his main big system, but all four systems I heard. He has achieved something very special, and it is not just the speakers, turntables, or electronics. It is the whole approach, starting with power and cables and racks. None of the audiophile accessories so common now. What I heard was the purity of the recordings coming through with more natural resolution than I have heard before.

I should add that his power cables and cables were like snake pits. No organization or reason, just placed all over the place. I've never seen such a mess behind all the racks. And yet, there was near silence coming out of his 105dB speakers with tube electronics at full listening level. Incredible. It really opened my eyes and thinking about the conventional audiophile approach. His approach in many ways runs completely counter to everything I have assumed for years.

Congrats on an amazing machine! Many time I almost pulled the trigger on one of the medium sized Micros (not on this top one though) but for some reason never did. Maybe because I heard some lesser ones (Rx1500 and BL91) that were good but not gob smacking.
Knowing what you now know, in which fundamental ways will your system likely need to shift to become more natural sounding? Do you still feel that your system has a high degree of naturalness or has the visit dissolved this view? Do you think there is still more to mine in this vein or will you need a paradigm shift?

 

[morricab]

Since Peter skipped answering this question, all of you are free to interpret silence. Though I called this many months ago

Big JBLs?

 

[ack]

The LAMM electronics are superb sounding

Really worth paying a visit to Steve's as well - highly recommended.

 

[PeterA]

Congrats on an amazing machine! Many time I almost pulled the trigger on one of the medium sized Micros (not on this top one though) but for some reason never did. Maybe because I heard some lesser ones (Rx1500 and BL91) that were good but not gob smacking.
Knowing what you now know, in which fundamental ways will your system likely need to shift to become more natural sounding? Do you still feel that your system has a high degree of naturalness or has the visit dissolved this view? Do you think there is still more to mine in this vein or will you need a paradigm shift?

Thank you very much Brad. Those are of course the key questions. I will try to answer them:

Q. Knowing what you now know, in which fundamental ways will your system likely need to shift to become more natural sounding?
A. I have been thinking about this question since the morning after I spent the first very late evening listening to David's big system. The first step was the proper set up methodology for the cartridge which David taught me in Utah. He did the same for Tang and other turntable clients. The second step is the turntable and the two NOS tonearms. The SME is excellent, but it is a different sound. From there, I think the next step is high efficiency speakers and SET electronics.

Q. Do you still feel that your system has a high degree of naturalness or has the visit dissolved this view?
A. I still feel my system is of the "natural sound" side of the spectrum. With the proper cartridge set up, it has moved to a higher level. The visit did not change any of this. In fact, the visit confirmed for me that I am moving in the right direction. I just now want to move further along the same path.

Q. Do you think there is still more to mine in this vein or will you need a paradigm shift?
A. With the many changes I have made in the last year and now with the proper cartridge set up, I think I am close to how far this system can go. I do not know what you mean by paradigm shift. My system with its big SS amps and sealed cone speakers is giving me what I feel is wonderful natural sound. With the exception of Jeffrey_T's system, it is the closest I've heard to David's systems. That may shock people, but it has so improved over the last year or so, that I could be happy staying right where I am, especially knowing that the big Micro Seiki is on its way.

However, I may well consider going further toward what David has. With his guidance, I may well end up with SETs and horns. We will see. I think of it as having a Volkswagen GTI now and thinking about getting a Porsche Cayanne, or 1980s 911, or lightweight GT3. These are all of a type, and very different from a Honda or Mustang. I started changing the system a year ago with the Ching Chengs, and DIY cables and the removal of treatments and air isolation, also the straight ahead speaker orientation. Now with the cartridge set up properly, I have achieved what I think of as Natural Sound. Other people surely enjoy other types of sound. Moving from big SS and sealed cone speakers to SET and horns does not seem like such a major step to me. It is simply a way to go further down the path that I am already on. I see it as is a whole approach and resulting sound, not component typology.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . . I see it as is a whole approach and resulting sound, not component typology.

I find this interesting, and a bit puzzling. I readily stipulate I have not heard the improvements you've made to your system, and the progress you have made going down the road towards natural sound.

But from my own survey of horn-loaded driver loudspeakers, and partly from tagging along on Keith's dream speaker search, my current feeling is that horn-loaded speakers offer a sonic presentation which is (as a matter of topology) fundamentally different from the sonic presentation of low-sensitivity/complex crossover/multi-way driver/inertly tightly-wrapped sealed cone speakers (unless the latter topology is in a design which is tall enough to include a greater amount of mid-range frequency driver surface area).

 

[ack]

(unless the latter topology is in a design which is tall enough to include a greater amount of mid-range frequency driver surface area)

BTW, this is something I've discussed with Peter a number of times in the past - how are you going to properly get the scale of an entire orchestra out of a 6-inch midrange driver. So I totally agree with you and your entire post.

 

[PeterA]

BTW, this is something I've discussed with Peter a number of times in the past - how are you going to properly get the scale of an entire orchestra out of a 6-inch midrange driver. So I totally agree with you and your entire post.

Tasos, please explain to me what speaker will give you “scale of an entire orchestra“? I have not heard one.

I agree that a 6 inch driver will not. But your Martin Logans certainly do not either. By far the closest to this that I have experienced is David’s big system. Very few people are gonna have anything remotely close to that, certainly none of the systems I’ve heard locally around Boston.

What I am talking about is a matter of degree. For me the major revelation and discovery was moving from a high fi sound to a natural sound, as I define it and for my own pleasure.

I am fully aware that people have different opinions and will disagree vehemently about typology and things like rack systems and power cords.

David has a pair of vintage Mitsubishi speakers with dynamic drivers that are about 36 inches tall. They provided more scale than any audio system I’ve heard in the Boston area including the biggest systems at Goodwins. Frankly I was astonished. These were not horns and they were not tall.

Bonzo was correct. I lacked exposure to what is possible. I have now heard it. Size of speaker and typology of driver were not the determining factors.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Size of speaker and typology of driver were not the determining factors.

fair enough

 

[PeterA]

I find this interesting, and a bit puzzling. I readily stipulate I have not heard the improvements you've made to your system, and the progress you have made going down the road towards natural sound.

But from my own survey of horn-loaded driver loudspeakers, and partly from tagging along on Keith's dream speaker search, my current feeling is that horn-loaded speakers offer a sonic presentation which is (as a matter of topology) fundamentally different from the sonic presentation of low-sensitivity/complex crossover/multi-way driver/inertly tightly-wrapped sealed cone speakers (unless the latter topology is in a design which is tall enough to include a greater amount of mid-range frequency driver surface area).

Ron, I respectfully disagree with this. Perhaps in general terms, but it cannot be taken as dogma. One also has to remember the constraints of one’s loosening room. I will never be able to put your Pendragons in my room. Nor will my wife want to look at a pair of refrigerators in front of our fireplace.

Have you heard any large high-efficiency horn speakers on your journey with Keith during his dream speaker search?

 

[ack]

Tasos, please explain to me what speaker will give you “scale of an entire orchestra“? I have not heard one.

The point is that you need midrange surface area, the more the better. Complex multi-driver systems, some horns, the Q7 we have all heard, and other speakers like that will come closer. None that I have ever heard is the real thing either, but size matters. Technology is certainly evolving.

For me the major revelation and discovery was moving from a high fi sound to a natural sound, as I define it and for my own pleasure.

I'll just say I think you have way overused that word 'natural' to describe your system, including last time I was there a year ago, and let's leave it at that.

David has a pair of vintage Mitsubishi speakers with dynamic drivers that are about 36 inches tall. They provided more scale than any audio system I’ve heard in the Boston area including the biggest systems at Goodwins. Frankly I was astonished. These were not horns and they were not tall.

Taking this with lots of salt, sorry.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I respectfully disagree with this. Perhaps in general terms, but it cannot be taken as dogma. One also has to remember the constraints of one’s loosening room. I will never be able to put your Pendragons in my room. Nor will my wife want to look at a pair of refrigerators in front of our fireplace.

Have you heard any large high-efficiency horn speakers on your journey with Keith during his dream speaker search?

I understand. I am not suggesting it as dogma, as much as my subjectively perceived general correlation.

By my reference to Keith I meant sealed, multi-way cone speakers. Keith and I have heard JimFord's Tannoy Westminster Royal GRs.

 

[Al M.]

Taking this with lots of salt, sorry.

Me too.

Peter, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am afraid you are getting carried away.

I very much look forward to experiencing your journey with my own ears. I will approach that experience with an open mind, but naturally also with some healthy skepticism. This kind of statement that Ack was referring to does not particularly help with the skepticism part. Just sayin'.

Sorry, but I think some slight pushback is needed at this point.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Me too.

Peter, I appreciate your enthusiasm, but I am afraid you are getting carried away.

I very much look forward to experiencing your journey with my own ears. I will approach that experience with an open mind, but naturally also with some healthy skepticism. This kind of statement that Ack was referring to does not particularly help with the skepticism part. Just sayin'.

Sorry, but I think some slight pushback is needed at this point.

What are you guys arguing about exactly? That Peter might prefer SETs and horns? That Dave has a pair of inauspicious spkrs that overperform?
At the Windsor Show nr London a few years back, a diminutive pair of Elac B5 standmounts were so impressive we returned to the room multiple times compared to the so-so Wilson, Magico and KEF Muon floorstanders rooms.

 

[ack]

What are you guys arguing about exactly? That Peter might prefer SETs and horns? That Dave has a pair of inauspicious spkrs that overperform?
At the Windsor Show nr London a few years back, a diminutive pair of Elac B5 standmounts were so impressive we returned to the room multiple times compared to the so-so Wilson, Magico and KEF Muon floorstanders rooms.

I think we are arguing the fact that the chasm between science and BS is actually quite deep and wide... I could be wrong.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I think we are arguing the fact that the chasm between science and BS is actually quite deep and wide... I could be wrong.

Aha...What's Best Philosophy forum.

 

[Al M.]

What are you guys arguing about exactly? That Peter might prefer SETs and horns? That Dave has a pair of inauspicious spkrs that overperform?
At the Windsor Show nr London a few years back, a diminutive pair of Elac B5 standmounts were so impressive we returned to the room multiple times compared to the so-so Wilson, Magico and KEF Muon floorstanders rooms.

No, it was this statement:

"David has a pair of vintage Mitsubishi speakers with dynamic drivers that are about 36 inches tall. They provided more scale than any audio system I’ve heard in the Boston area including the biggest systems at Goodwins. Frankly I was astonished. These were not horns and they were not tall."

If I am not mistaken, these were in one of the smaller rooms. Hard to believe they were able to provide a scale greater than anything in Goodwin's large room. I have heard quite massive scale there on orchestral music.

 

[ack]

No, it was this statement:

"David has a pair of vintage Mitsubishi speakers with dynamic drivers that are about 36 inches tall. They provided more scale than any audio system I’ve heard in the Boston area including the biggest systems at Goodwins. Frankly I was astonished. These were not horns and they were not tall."

If I am not mistaken, these were in one of the smaller rooms. Hard to believe they were able to provide a scale greater than anything in Goodwin's large room. I have heard quite massive scale there on orchestral music.

That's exactly what we are talking about

 

[PeterA]

No, it was this statement:

"David has a pair of vintage Mitsubishi speakers with dynamic drivers that are about 36 inches tall. They provided more scale than any audio system I’ve heard in the Boston area including the biggest systems at Goodwins. Frankly I was astonished. These were not horns and they were not tall."

If I am not mistaken, these were in one of the smaller rooms. Hard to believe they were able to provide a scale greater than anything in Goodwin's large room. I have heard quite massive scale there on orchestral music.

Al, Yes you are mistaken. The speakers I’m talking about are in David’s big room. I’m simply reporting that my impression of the scale from those speakers was bigger more open and more effortless than any speaker system I’ve heard around here. They were high-efficiency cone speakers driven by 18 watts from the ML3 SET amplifier.

That includes the largest system I heard at Goodwins which was the Q7. I can’t explain it and I don’t know why. The Q7 was completely choked perhaps from the MIT cables or some other reason. This was my impression when listening to a jazz recording with trumpet. We played it loud. I never heard anything like that at Goodwins. In fact the scale in your room is generally bigger than what I hear at Goodwins and you have tiny speakers with small drivers.

You can certainly take it with a grain of salt. We might even disagree if we listen to the same thing at the same time with the same music. I’m simply sharing an impression. It is fine if you do not agree.

 

[morricab]

Tasos, please explain to me what speaker will give you “scale of an entire orchestra“? I have not heard one.

I agree that a 6 inch driver will not. But your Martin Logans certainly do not either. By far the closest to this that I have experienced is David’s big system. Very few people are gonna have anything remotely close to that, certainly none of the systems I’ve heard locally around Boston.

What I am talking about is a matter of degree. For me the major revelation and discovery was moving from a high fi sound to a natural sound, as I define it and for my own pleasure.

I am fully aware that people have different opinions and will disagree vehemently about typology and things like rack systems and power cords.

David has a pair of vintage Mitsubishi speakers with dynamic drivers that are about 36 inches tall. They provided more scale than any audio system I’ve heard in the Boston area including the biggest systems at Goodwins. Frankly I was astonished. These were not horns and they were not tall.

Bonzo was correct. I lacked exposure to what is possible. I have now heard it. Size of speaker and typology of driver were not the determining factors.

What did you think of the M9500 JBL system?
One thing is sure, to be able to attempt to scale to large dynamic swings without flattening the dynamic envelope, there is no substitute for large high efficiency drivers and or horns. It has to be skillfully done so as not to sound colored but when done so it is the only way to get closer to a natural sound. It’s physics.

You may not notice it with a lot of recordings because they themselves are flattened dynamically, which is done in many cases because of the known limitations of most playback gear.

I have a three disc series of Tchaikovsky pieces on DG that are surprisingly dynamic. There is an intro on one piece,whose name currently escapes me, that crescendos multiple times early and one is particularly dynamic. When everything is clicking it startles me even though it know it’s coming. It never did that until I got my Odeon horns. It just keeps scaling when other systems I had or I have heard with many others just flatten it out somewhat.

 

[howiebrou]

Howie, that is a gorgeous sample. I will not have the air base but rather am designing two massive steel blocks, one for the motor and one for the main chassis. They will be about the size of your base, but 220 lbs of tuned silver stainless steel. Combined with the table, I will have 400 lbs of steel on the top shelf of my rack.

May I ask why you have a record weight? Do you use the vacuum hold down?

400Lbs! That’s awesome. I don’t use the weight. It’s a left over from my MS RX 5000 so i just put it there when not in use. Yes, I use the vacuum hold down normally when playing.