Sublime Sound

[ddk]

Peter,

I understand Keith point. You already owned a "natural" sound source system and were quite happy with it. Why did you decide to change the turntable and not the speakers, that use the ring-radiator Revelator ScanSpeak tweeter and a lot of Mundorf exotic components, considered to be not "natural" friendly?

BTW, it seems to me that you told us what is not needed to get "natural" sound but not what is needed except listening to the Bionors!

Don't you think that this is a moot argument Francisco? You have more & less competent musicians and you have more and less competent systems, natural or otherwise.

As far as I see it now any exotic capacitor or wire is non "natural" - please note the commas around natural.

I'm curious to understand what makes mass capacitors and wires produced by the mile "exotic" aside from cost?

I never read from David referring to the life sound of instruments or references. IMHO the definition of "natural" should go against any educated references.

I have discussed live sound on many occasions and in this context it's obvious to most people that it refers to live sound. Please come up with a different word that works for you and your educated references whatever they are, you don't have to bother with it.

david

 

[microstrip]

Always

The same here.

 

[tima]

I'd like to not derail this system thread any further and try to return to the topic of my system and the incoming Micro Seiki turntable.

Sure. What was your exposure to the Micro Seiki table you asked David to find for you before you asked him? How did you know that was the table you wanted for your system before your Utah trip?

 

[microstrip]

Don't you think that this is a moot argument Francisco? You have more & less competent musicians and you have more and less competent systems, natural or otherwise.

No it is not - it is why other people also asked for it. BTW, since long we know that analogies between real and sound reproduction are just noise to avoid proper discussion. No one is questioning competency of systems, just strategies to follow a path.

I'm curious to understand what makes mass capacitors and wires produced by the mile "exotic" aside from cost?

Sound signatures as you say - exotic components usually have a clear sound signature that represents the views of their designers on sound reproduction. There is a lot of knowledge and expertise involved in having a clear defined sound signature that complements some electronics and speakers. Some people love it, other prefer otherwise.

I have discussed live sound on many occasions and in this context it's obvious to most people that it refers to live sound. Please come up with a different word that works for you and your educated references whatever they are, you don't have to bother with it.

david

Exactly my point. As far as I remember you discuss live sound, not the sound of a copy of real instruments - the famous "sound of actual acoustic instruments playing in a real space."

 

[PeterA]

Do you have this for the classical stuff previously posted? Thanks

Yes, Bonzo. I just made a couple more comparison videos. Here are Scheherazade and Beethoven's Middle Quartets. The first in each paring is my old cartridge set up, the second is after learning David's set up method. I do not think they are precisely level matched, nor are they the same length. To the best of my memory, the only difference is cartridge set up. No cable, cord, accessory or other changes.

One interesting thing to note is at the end of the second Scheherazade I move the iPhone over to the cartridge and the sound does not change that much. This is an indication that the entire room is energized and the music sounds pretty good outside of the sweet spot in the center of my sofa. I noticed this same characteristic from David's system, though to an even greater degree. I may one day make a video walking around the room. This quality was much improved when I reoriented the speakers to fire straight ahead and not beaming at me from each side.

Scheherazade #1:

Scheherazade #2:

Beethoven Quartets #1:

Beethoven Quartets #2:

 

[PeterA]

Sure. What was your exposure to the Micro Seiki table you asked David to find for you before you asked him? How did you know that was the table you wanted for your system before your Utah trip?

Tim, that is an excellent question. The more David helped me with my system set up, the more I appreciated his advice and experience. I was pretty impressed that he could simply look at the photos of my room and the videos that I sent him and offer me advice that WORKED. He did not tell me what to do, he simply nudged me and asked questions, and told me to listen. I did so and heard improvements and continued my experiments. At some point I started to look up his various threads about his system, his approach, and specifically, the six "Beyond" tables.

Remember, I have heard the AS 2000 at Rockitman's house and compared it directly to his AF1. I was very impressed. That the SX8000II was included in this list made me take notice. The Thoren's Ref, EMT 927, and original American Sound are all either too expensive or too difficult to find in great condition. The MS SZ1 is the same. The SX 8000 can be found, but rarely in great condition, and David's writing suggested that the MS to get was really the SX 8000II. I did some research on the net and became interested. I then decided to ask him if he could find one for me.

There are two interesting discussions on the net, one by some Germans on Audiogon comparing various tables, and another on Romy the Cat's website. They both refer to this table as being very special. I decided to try one myself.

I had no previous exposure to the Micro Seiki brand. I liked what I had read, and I liked the concept of a high mass, air bearing, belt drive table. When it landed in Utah, I decided to ask if I could visit him. These are going up in value, not down, like so much of high end audio equipment. I figured the risk is minimal. I have already been contacted by people who are now interested in this table.

 

[Tango]

One interesting thing to note is at the end of the second Scheherazade I move the iPhone over to the cartridge and the sound does not change that much. This is an indication that the entire room is energized and the music sounds pretty good outside of the sweet spot in the center of my sofa. I noticed this same characteristic from David's system, though to an even greater degree. I may one day make a video walking around the room. This quality was much improved when I reoriented the speakers to fire straight ahead and not beaming at me from each side.

A great system does that. The presence is always there although the dimensional perspective shift. Feel that even more when listening solo or only a few pieces of instrument. I remember hearing a video made by @VladB of his system way off to the side of his listening room and still heard the music like it was live in the room. That was from a video .

 

[tima]

Q. Knowing what you now know, in which fundamental ways will your system likely need to shift to become more natural sounding?
A. I have been thinking about this question since the morning after I spent the first very late evening listening to David's big system. The first step was the proper set up methodology for the cartridge which David taught me in Utah.

And @ddk

Peter, you mention several times about learning "the proper set up methodology for the cartridge ...". I'm recalling that David created a jig or alignment aid for use during set up. Is that device specific to the 3012R or specific to SME arms or...?

 

[Tango]

And @ddk

Peter, you mention several times about learning "the proper set up methodology for the cartridge ...". I'm recalling that David created a jig or alignment aid for use during set up. Is that device specific to the 3012R or specific to SME arms or...?

Yes that is specific to SME head shell. If you ask me it was designed to protect and remove the cartridge from mishandling during setup. Less risk damaging the cart.

 

[Folsom]

Now I just want to know what David has in his office.

And measure the Bionars T/S to know more about them.

 

[ddk]

And @ddk

Peter, you mention several times about learning "the proper set up methodology for the cartridge ...". I'm recalling that David created a jig or alignment aid for use during set up. Is that device specific to the 3012R or specific to SME arms or...?

It is specific to the 3012, as @Tango said it's to save handling the cartridge but because of the design it's more accurate and very precise to set overhang compared to trying to do it with the cartridge. There's more to it than overhang.

david

 

[ddk]

Now I just want to know what David has in his office.

And measure the Bionars T/S to know more about them.

Celestion 600s with Museatex electronics and DAC, CEC TL0 transport.

david

 

[ddk]

No it is not - it is why other people also asked for it. BTW, since long we know that analogies between real and sound reproduction are just noise to avoid proper discussion. No one is questioning competency of systems, just strategies to follow a path.

I don't get your logic here Francisco the strategy is the means to an end. I can't figure out what you're questioning. I agree that analogies between real and sound reproduction can be fruitless but not for the reason you suggest. I see the problem with people not having the same understanding of live and very different experience with reproduction, you can't have proper conversation when participants are so far apart in their knowledge and don't even recognize it.

Sound signatures as you say - exotic components usually have a clear sound signature that represents the views of their designers on sound reproduction. There is a lot of knowledge and expertise involved in having a clear defined sound signature that complements some electronics and speakers. Some people love it, other prefer otherwise.

Are you saying that heavy coloration makes a component exotic? What do you mean by clear defined sound, there's plenty of high end products that are the result of anything but expertise and have a very defined sound because of it.

Exactly my point. As far as I remember you discuss live sound, not the sound of a copy of real instruments - the famous "sound of actual acoustic instruments playing in a real space."

I mostly talk about the live event, it includes instruments, musicians along with spatial cues and ambience from the venue. How much of each is reproduced determines how natural the reproduction is.

david

 

[tima]

Yes that is specific to SME head shell. If you ask me it was designed to protect and remove the cartridge from mishandling during setup. Less risk damaging the cart.

It is specific to the 3012, as @Tango said it's to save handling the cartridge but because of the design it's more accurate and very precise to set overhang with compared to trying to do it with the cartridge. There's more to it than overhang.

david

Thank you!

 

[tima]

I had no previous exposure to the Micro Seiki brand. I liked what I had read, and I liked the concept of a high mass, air bearing, belt drive table.

Thanks for your reply, Peter. Your approach is close to what I imagined you did and it sounds very much like what I'd do myself. It is often difficult or rare to hear a well regarded component and having someone whose judgement you trust along with supporting feedback from others is sometimes the best that is available to us.

Living in the NE metroplex gives you opportunities that I do not have available, other than Chicago. I'm fortunate to learn through review opportunities. Even with that, the vintage space is scattered or non-existant or largely unknown outside a handful of individuals who we may be fortunate enough to meet on-line. It's great (a joy really) that someone (@ddk) brings a global perspective, lives in the US, has the resources and is willing to offer the guidance and assistance he gave you and gives to others.

My last question in this vein: For a long while you've been enthusiastic about your SME 30/12. What 'urge' or initiator prompted you to get a new table? And, a new table rather than upgrading in a different component area?

 

[PeterA]

My last question in this vein: For a long while you've been enthusiastic about your SME 30/12. What 'urge' or initiator prompted you to get a new table? And, a new table rather than upgrading in a different component area?

Hi Tim, the turntable is an easier thing to change than the speakers or the electronics. I figured if I wanted to explore the SET/horn route (or simply low power/high efficiency), it would require more involved and complicated research. The turntable is a relatively easy thing to change, and I have been curious about the high mass, unsuspended, belt drive concept for a while. The air bearing is really intriguing. The Micro just kind of fell into place. It is the first step.

You are right, I have enjoyed the SME for many years. I keep finding ways to get more information from those grooves. The addition of the second arm with the design of my armpod was a very significant lesson. I really like having two arms. The Micro will provide a more stable and equal platform for two arms. I just designed two massive steel plates for under the new table: one for the motor, one for the main chassis, following what I learned from my experiments with steel plates on my rack and how to tune them. I also learned from David about his Nothing Racks. They are quite something, and seem extremely effective.

 

[tima]

I figured if I wanted to explore the SET/horn route (or simply low power/high efficiency), it would require more involved and complicated research.

No doubt. Are you thinking vintage?
Thanks for the follow-up.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sorry peter slightly off topic .
I would call duelund exotic caps with definetively a natural approach
Mundorf caps are much cheaper / mass production and much less exotic

As far as I see it now any exotic capacitor or wire is non "natural" - please note the commas around natural.

 

[PeterA]

No doubt. Are you thinking vintage?
Thanks for the follow-up.

Yes Tim. I can’t ignore the quality of the vintage stuff I heard in Utah. It just sounded right to me.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I have some inkling of your current mindset. Have heard any number of great panels (ZAxis Paul's modded Logans on Concert Fidelity hybrids), ribbons (User211's modded Duettas on high power tubes), box spkrs (Kharma Exquisites and Rockport Hyperions on Tenor OTL)...but the only demos that have absolutely transported me have been horns (Cessaro Liszts one setup, The General's Pnoes, and especially Audiophile Bill's new horns, these latter two horns on Mayer 46 tubes)
Once you hear majestically unforced, timbrally spot on, dynamically unrestrained, tonally fully saturated, and deep brain "familiarity" with real music, you can't unhear it. I've only ever got that w horns on SETs, and very nearly on horns/low power Class A SS.