Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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If that's the case, Marc, why don't you go that route?
Negative? Please go to my speaker thread and see how I've patiently reviewed speakers and documented my journey over the past three years for others.
I've asked before and David doesn't believe in other electronics. So yeah, save some on power cords but spend $90k on a Lamm stack to get the sound he prefers. I'd also wager that if the Ching Chengs cost $1k people's findings would be different. I don't dislike them, even have one in my system. but I (and others) have found better.
This is a friendly forum, please don't ask such tough questions
If I was still a bachelor in London w no property restoration costs, rather than the $100k I need to find for the chapel.
If only horns were needed, I'd buy Audiophile Bill's horns in a shot (they easily best all the AGs, Cessaros, and Pnoes that I've auditioned), but I'd then need new amps and cart/phono.
I'm very happy with my version of "natural" sound I've evolved to over last 5 years, informed by live music and benchmarks of the best systems I've heard.
I'm the happiest w my sound by far I've ever been, I pretty much view the $50k I sunk into my audio room construction as the equivalent of a big spend on new spkrs, I can't justify both room AND spkrs.
Well, my old apartment was a perfect size for Bill's horns tbh...acoustics challenges another matter.
Tweaks spend? Yep, that figure in Zimbabwean Dollars.
Tweaks spend? Yep, that figure in Zimbabwean Dollars.
So do you contend there are no disadvantages to such a system type, SETs/horns? Do you think they could play prog rock and electronica to your full satisfaction as well?
Sure the price of CC cords are part of my consideration, could i find a cord better for my system if i was willing to spend unlimited on the endeavor ? Of course. But i would rather spend big bucks on equipment upgrades, i find this never ending search for the perfect cable and the subsequent ridiculous prices something i don't want to participate in. A nice relative neutral cable is good enough for me
Honestly using CC is not all about saving money for everyone it works for my and some people’s purposes or we would have changed after the first decade. The point here is eliminating power cords with heavy coloration and specifically in the bass region nothing more, CC’s low cost and high quality build is the icing on the cake. No one’s tethered to them for life and can switch to anything they prefer.
david
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Al, there are pros/cons, caveats with every choice.
A move from my high efficiency Zus to inefficient modded Duettas, which I did consider at one point, would have meant the need for wholesale change of amps as well.
A move to horns, Bill's especially because I believe they're even more efficient than the AG Duos I know quite well, would absolutely demand super quiet tubes, and in my case, very likely need to also change my cart, and thus need to buy a phono again.
I'd be borrowing as much money as the UK government is because of Covid.
Re the suitability of horns on what you might call "challenging" masters, well, Bill's horns made the single biggest pitch that this topology could be universally great across all manner of recordings.
A move from my high efficiency Zus to inefficient modded Duettas, which I did consider at one point, would have meant the need for wholesale change of amps as well.
A move to horns, Bill's especially because I believe they're even more efficient than the AG Duos I know quite well, would absolutely demand super quiet tubes, and in my case, very likely need to also change my cart, and thus need to buy a phono again.
I'd be borrowing as much money as the UK government is because of Covid.
Re the suitability of horns on what you might call "challenging" masters, well, Bill's horns made the single biggest pitch that this topology could be universally great across all manner of recordings.
Well, good that finally someone concedes the obvious.
There is no free lunch in audio.
Ok, Marc, but if you had unlimited money for your dream SET/horn system, do you think it could play any genre of music at least as well as any other system type? Or can you think of some genres where such a system might struggle, at least compared to other system types?
I'm a vinylphile who believes vinyl can be best, but often digital has the edge.
So, maybe I'm not the best person to ask.
All I can say is, that in terms of "breath of life" and ability to disappear and leave the music hanging in the air, I'd bet the chapel that no box spkr can match let alone exceed the best horns I've heard.
So, maybe I'm not the best person to ask.
All I can say is, that in terms of "breath of life" and ability to disappear and leave the music hanging in the air, I'd bet the chapel that no box spkr can match let alone exceed the best horns I've heard.
Ok, so you are implying that maybe a SET/horn system, even though it does some things uniquely well, does not do everything perfectly?
Argumentative your Honor, he is leading the witness, and this witness can be easily lead !
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Al, I know where you're going w this argument Lol.
Bill's horns were the first horns for me that worked as well on classical (Haydn Symphonies box set was absolutely sublime), jazz (Larry Coryell-John McLaughlin/Spaces guitar duo was stellar), and hard rock (LZ3/Immigrant Song just smoked). Playing Rush/Moving Pictures was fascinating because this album epically fails on every horns system I've listened to it on, pulling it apart and revealing its early digital nature. Bill's horns were way closer to the Zu presentation of an easier going, less forensic presentation, maxing the tone and texture of the recording, only drawing attention to itself when it revealed its lack of space and depth/imaging cues compared to LZ3, where you could literally feel/envisage the studio, and air around the instruments.
But this is not because his horns are less revealing than the so-called best box spkrs, it's more because his design absolutely nails resolution of detail, air, imaging cues, micro dynamics...AND fantastic resolution of tone density, this latter area missing from so many top spkrs, and the area most memorable imho from live performance as the measure of a home system.
So, the Rush LP was the "least" stellar out of the dozen or so albums we played, but it was huge on tone density and dynamics, and thus represented undoubtedly the only spkrs I'd happily exchange my Zus for, and not feel shortchanged in any way.
And no coincidence, my Zus and Bill's horns have more in common than my Zus and eg Cessaros...single full range drivers, no crossover.
Bill's horns were the first horns for me that worked as well on classical (Haydn Symphonies box set was absolutely sublime), jazz (Larry Coryell-John McLaughlin/Spaces guitar duo was stellar), and hard rock (LZ3/Immigrant Song just smoked). Playing Rush/Moving Pictures was fascinating because this album epically fails on every horns system I've listened to it on, pulling it apart and revealing its early digital nature. Bill's horns were way closer to the Zu presentation of an easier going, less forensic presentation, maxing the tone and texture of the recording, only drawing attention to itself when it revealed its lack of space and depth/imaging cues compared to LZ3, where you could literally feel/envisage the studio, and air around the instruments.
But this is not because his horns are less revealing than the so-called best box spkrs, it's more because his design absolutely nails resolution of detail, air, imaging cues, micro dynamics...AND fantastic resolution of tone density, this latter area missing from so many top spkrs, and the area most memorable imho from live performance as the measure of a home system.
So, the Rush LP was the "least" stellar out of the dozen or so albums we played, but it was huge on tone density and dynamics, and thus represented undoubtedly the only spkrs I'd happily exchange my Zus for, and not feel shortchanged in any way.
And no coincidence, my Zus and Bill's horns have more in common than my Zus and eg Cessaros...single full range drivers, no crossover.
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Yes, many people lack the basics of stereo sound reproduction and its connection with real music. But IMHO not the case of most of our members.
I did not say "heavy coloration" - I said "sound signatures" that can even be very subtile. We are in Peter thread, I will use again the words of the designer of his electronics - Nelson Pass:
"Our real customers care most about the experience they get when they sit down to listen to their music. We create amplifiers that we like to listen to, on the assumption that we share similar taste. "
IMHO what people are addressing is how far products designed by people with very different taste and objectives can fit the "natural" sound paradigm.
Again, my posts usually address the best of this hobby, not the "plenty" that are poorly designed.
We fully agree on these objectives. But there are plenty of different views on what are the spatial clues that must be included and how they should be presented.
Al, the other thing you have to remember, and this applies to any stellar demo...you're listening to the whole effect, the holistic combination of well optimised source, a worked-out spkrs/amps synergy, and the effects of the room. Not just THE tt/digital, or THE spkrs etc.
So, in Bill's room, his horns have the major advantages of a brilliant source (Bergmann/DaVa or Red Sparrow/Mayer) and superlative amps (Mayers), and a nice cosy warm acoustic (we both agreed a bigger space would give his horns wings).
At The General, Vyger/Red Sparrow/Mayers, and an amazing acoustic (untreated 30x20x20).
...
And so, Peter has had a parallel experience, hearing a selection of amazing TTs, into excellent Lamms, thru hugely communicative horns...the synergy at work.
A fear for me would be buying the closest thing to epiphany spkrs, but plonking them at the end of my system, that has some established noise issues, and maybe amps that could be shown up as not good enough for the horns.
That's why I wrote before, a move to horns is not just that...it could easily obligate you to have to upgrade amps, and maybe your source might be found wanting too.
So, in Bill's room, his horns have the major advantages of a brilliant source (Bergmann/DaVa or Red Sparrow/Mayer) and superlative amps (Mayers), and a nice cosy warm acoustic (we both agreed a bigger space would give his horns wings).
At The General, Vyger/Red Sparrow/Mayers, and an amazing acoustic (untreated 30x20x20).
...
And so, Peter has had a parallel experience, hearing a selection of amazing TTs, into excellent Lamms, thru hugely communicative horns...the synergy at work.
A fear for me would be buying the closest thing to epiphany spkrs, but plonking them at the end of my system, that has some established noise issues, and maybe amps that could be shown up as not good enough for the horns.
That's why I wrote before, a move to horns is not just that...it could easily obligate you to have to upgrade amps, and maybe your source might be found wanting too.
Al, I’m not sure any system can do everything perfectly or anything perfectly. We are talking about systems trying to reproduce music. The best we can hope for is the next level and what we enjoy the most with the music we like the most.
I did not have a chance to listen to electronica or movie soundtracks at David’s house, but I did listen to Peggy Lee sing “fever“. It was unbelievable. I would be more than happy to live with any of David systems to play the type of music I like.
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