Sublime Sound

[microstrip]

According to the article,Yates disagrees with your comment and repeating my mantra, it is always an emotional experience!

"Listening naturally (emotionally), though, the RPGs seemed to represent a giant step toward the real, live experience of participating in the original music-making event."

I consider that Yates agrees with me when he needs to clarify what he means by natural adding emotional between parenthesis immediacy after using the word. I am favorable to beautiful wording and style as long as it is not ambiguous or misleading. The main point of the article is that he feels that an heavily professionaly treated listening room is adequate to optimize stereo sound reproduction and he masterly describes why very clearly with plenty of specifc examples.

Since long everyone agrees that the aim of sound reproduction is creating an emotional experience - the F. Toole book starts from that point. Divergences and interesting discussion show when addressing how to get there and our analysis of ways to build a system.

But you're correct in your assumption of Bonnie's work, isolating and sealing a room from the rest of house in this way will end up being too dead, at least IMO.

The article mostly circles the bowl promoting RPG diffusors but I appreciate the fact that he approaches the subject through listening and mentions things like ambience and natural sound instead of posting a bunch of measurements. We seem to agree on absorbent wall tampons as well. Otherwise there's nothing in real world advice beyond buy RPGs. The company makes some great products and has a largish toolbox and I'm sure if you're willing to spend the money for RPG and services of an experienced team you'll end up with a "Designed" space but that has nothing to do with system set up and dealing with the energy inside the room boundaries with or without RPGs which is what Peter documented here. The space and the energy still need to be managed with the listener, speakers and character of the room in mind. Simple example is what we did in Steve's "designed" room, moved the listening chair to avoid the "design", capturing the energy that room robbed him of before. This is a prime example of what I mean by energy management.

david

Well, Keith Yates is also a measuring and simulation person - in fact one of the best I know about. Probably because he manages to merge both.

Anyway, it is interesting to know that Steve has now "virtually" sent the room treatments effect down the hill - from pictures I always got the idea that the room was very damped . How far did he move the listening chair from the old position?

 

[Bobvin]

David,
Your comments re: listening to my voice in each space makes a lot of sense as a way to perceive “natural”. In my listening room the difference of the feel of the room is immediate, you don’t need to say anything. Yes, my voice does change some and I think I need to go outdoors then come back in for a good evaluation. In the rest of my house the sound is very “alive” but this, to me, isn’t really natural as there is so much reflected sound it borders on “echo-y” which is really apparent once you get a half dozen people in. Holiday parties are extremely loud — we’ve all been in restaurants with very open plan and its hard to hear the person across the table. Is this “natural”?

My room before the remodel sounded pretty damn good, but as the volume increased the “natural” sound was a big mess as the energy in the room became more than the room could manage. After the changes the volume can go up and the sound remains clear and organized. Bass was far less clear before the change, the room still has its fundamental nodes, no escaping that, and I will be exploring my seating position in more detail.

Bonnie’s design for my room is essentially custom RPG BAD panels throughout, though there is more to it. And my room is not isolated and closed but has custom curtains across the openings and on the wall with the windows. The curtains do allow for some room “tuning” I’d be curious to have your opinions should you ever find yourself in Portland area. (We are 20 miles from downtown, very safe out here.)

 

[microstrip]

(...) Bonnie’s design for my room is essentially custom RPG BAD panels throughout, though there is more to it.(...)

Bob,

RPG BAD Panels consist of a binary amplitude template attached to a porous absorbing core, typically a rigid fiberglass board. They are essentially a digital and artificial device Do you expect them to help a room to sound natural?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ha! I did wonder how quickly we'd get from "what is a natural sound?" to "you don't expect THAT to produce a natural sound?". Lol.

 

[ddk]

I consider that Yates agrees with me when he needs to clarify what he means by natural adding emotional between parenthesis immediacy after using the word. I am favorable to beautiful wording and style as long as it is not ambiguous or misleading. The main point of the article is that he feels that an heavily professionaly treated listening room is adequate to optimize stereo sound reproduction and he masterly describes why very clearly with plenty of specifc examples.

What additional clarification does parentheses make? It's the same word and it's same meaning and there's no more ambiguity when I or Peter used the word. Speaking for myself and Peter neither one of us was attempting to mislead you or anyone else, the confusion and lack of apprehension is yours.

The point of the article is no such thing he talks specifically about RPG diffusors and purchasing acoustical and plastering over his front that anyone can do so where's the professional aspect that you mention? The only specificity I found in the article is about the RPGs themselves and something about the front wall that he was covering with them. What else?

Since long everyone agrees that the aim of sound reproduction is creating an emotional experience - the F. Toole book starts from that point. Divergences and interesting discussion show when addressing how to get there and our analysis of ways to build a system.

Your interest in Toole is fine but how does your desire to discuss him relate to @PeterA's experience and activities or detract from what he accomplished? Knowledge of emotion in humans goes back to dawn of mankind, what's your point here?

Well, Keith Yates is also a measuring and simulation person - in fact one of the best I know about. Probably because he manages to merge both.

We weren't discussing Mr. Yates the article you linked is purely a subjective account. But, strictly speaking ears are also measurement instruments and very sophisticated ones that an experienced person can use and relate objective account of the sound being "Natural".

Anyway, it is interesting to know that Steve has now "virtually" sent the room treatments effect down the hill - from pictures I always got the idea that the room was very damped . How far did he move the listening chair from the old position?

We didn't send anything down the hill Francisco, he has a shell designed with certain qualities that we left alone. We simply dealt with the way energy flow patten and absorption qualities of in the room. Moving the listening seat to a more suitable position is dealing with the energy which is already there. We took measurements with our ears which both Steve & I are fully capable of doing and used a practical approach, ie moved the chair up by 1.5-2m. Of course we could have called Mr. Yates and Mr. Toole to fly in and have the room torn apart and remade in their vision using whatever systems they recommend/sell and hope for something better which is what you're arguing for. Have you invited Mr. Yates to your place and see what you end up with? Is setting up the system part of what they do? What happens when you make changes to the system, are going to call them in again?

I don't understand it and keep asking the same question Francisco, why are you working so hard to diminish the value of what Peter has achieved by himself? Nothing against Mr. Yates, Mr. Toole or other names that you like to drop from time but have never heard any of their products nor have you heard Peter's setup to be able to judge his approach. We are not all sheep in the professional community, we don't always agree nor do we use the same methodology. Circumstances, experience, and specially commercial interests have a direct influence on how we approach and what we offer the individual. A $1m budget and an plot of land to build a dedicated space requires one type of professional approach, a shared living space with no or little budget deserves and different one. Theoretical knowledge and name dropping is fine but only after your first 30-40 professional setups (includes room builds) you may also realize that there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat! You don't have to agree but frankly you should appreciate @PeterA's efforts and the time he has taken the time to share and maybe offer us some personal accomplishments of your own, name dropping and linking obtuse commercial links takes it only so far.

david

 

[PeterA]

Ha! I did wonder how quickly we'd get from "what is a natural sound?" to "you don't expect THAT to produce a natural sound". Lol.

Marc, It seems you’re now having fun on a thread which just a short while ago left you cold, mystified, and unable to relate.

Are people still having difficulty understanding what natural sound is? Those panels in Bob‘s room hopefully are not producing any sound. Are they not just passive objects? I think Fransisco, who usually likes precision, and careful writing, is having some fun here with these digitally designed panels and his emoji faces. (Rather ironic to bring up something digital on an all vinyl system thread).

Why are you wondering whether or not they produce a natural sound? They are now a part of the room. The room simply is as configured. It provides the environment in which the sound energy from the system or the voice, or a hand clap reacts in the space. The room treatment is either beneficial or detrimental to the energy in the room and whether or not the room sounds natural.

Bob (and other visitors to the room) decides whether or not the sound of his voice or of his system is natural in that room. We can only speculate from afar. Fransicso deals with reality, not the imagination, so without actually being in the room, we are left to ask Bob what he thinks. It either is or is not natural and he either likes the sound or he does not like it. It is for him to decide and for him to enjoy.

Spaces all sound different, just like different concert halls sound different. However, there is a range in which one knows whether or not something sounds natural. And there are degrees too. The better the components, the system, and the room, the more a cello will sound like a cello, and a choir will sound like a choir.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, it's just a comment on the tyranny of descriptive phrases. I haven't heard this room of Bobvin's, the owner loves it...that's all that matters. But I guess there will be those who claim a certain change by definition can't produce a natural sound. Ie these panels according to Francisco.

And I return to one of my first comments on the topic of naturalness...just which audiophile would claim their beloved sound isn't natural?

Even the girl who cakes herself in make up to go out for the evening would claim she's as natural as the sweetheart next door who rolls out of bed unmade up but super sweet with no effort.

 

[ddk]

David,
Your comments re: listening to my voice in each space makes a lot of sense as a way to perceive “natural”. In my listening room the difference of the feel of the room is immediate, you don’t need to say anything. Yes, my voice does change some and I think I need to go outdoors then come back in for a good evaluation. In the rest of my house the sound is very “alive” but this, to me, isn’t really natural as there is so much reflected sound it borders on “echo-y” which is really apparent once you get a half dozen people in. Holiday parties are extremely loud — we’ve all been in restaurants with very open plan and its hard to hear the person across the table. Is this “natural”?

My room before the remodel sounded pretty damn good, but as the volume increased the “natural” sound was a big mess as the energy in the room became more than the room could manage. After the changes the volume can go up and the sound remains clear and organized. Bass was far less clear before the change, the room still has its fundamental nodes, no escaping that, and I will be exploring my seating position in more detail.

Bonnie’s design for my room is essentially custom RPG BAD panels throughout, though there is more to it. And my room is not isolated and closed but has custom curtains across the openings and on the wall with the windows. The curtains do allow for some room “tuning” I’d be curious to have your opinions should you ever find yourself in Portland area. (We are 20 miles from downtown, very safe out here.)

There are two separate topics here Bob, one is the shell and the other is the setup specifically as it relates to speakers and listener/listeners placement. Then there's the other conversation about gear, electrical, etc.

To be clear I'm not advocating for or against "designer" listening room it depends on the final product, same with sorting out the acoustics in a so called "standard" room, there's generally a need to deal with it. The question is the approach, how far you want to go and how much you want to spend.

Considering only the room I prefer a live one to work with because it's just a matter of taming the reflections, organizing and directing the information traffic but the information is all there and this is the process that @PeterA describes in his thread. A dead absorptive environment IMO and IME is more difficult to deal with because it steals energy which contains sonic information. While some things might seem clearer and more organized it's because you're only dealing with partial energy and fewer information, now it's a matter of getting that data back into the room and then organizing and directing it to the listener. These are the basic principles I work with I'm not passing any judgment on your room. The voice test is a simple and accurate way for you to analyze what type of space you have that's all.

david

 

[PeterA]

Peter, it's just a comment on the tyranny of descriptive phrases. I haven't heard this room of Bobvin's, the owner loves it...that's all that matters. But I guess there will be those who claim a certain change by definition can't produce a natural sound. Ie these panels according to Francisco.

And I return to one of my first comments on the topic of naturalness...just which audiophile would claim their beloved sound isn't natural?

Even the girl who cakes herself in make up to go out for the evening would claim she's as natural as the sweetheart next door who rolls out of bed unmade up but super sweet with no effort.

I understand Marc. I also appreciate your comment about which audiophile would ever claim his sound is not natural. I certainly would not have after all those years. But now, I have heard something different. Something I think is better. And I use my memory of live music as my reference against which I am the judge. Others may not see it this way. That is fine.

I love your comment about the girl with her makeup. I have two daughters who have a friend. The friend's father and I spent years taking the three of them all over the place to compete in sailing regattas. When they were in their early teens, this father, who remains a great friend, and I were quite surprised by the amount of makeup his daughter had put on, so early in the morning and before she was heading out to the race course. I remember my friend telling his daughter, "Julia, remember, 'less is more'". I wonder if he realized he was quoting the great architect, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe. I find myself often thinking of this when I see someone with too much make up on her face.

I suppose the same could be said about room acoustic treatments.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Apologies in advance - I have only skimmed a little here and there as many pages of posts pertaining to the management of acoustics.

The bit that I don’t follow around the discussion of management of energy is the following:

Treating rooms won’t actually yield less sound energy across the *musical content* simply because of modal interactions, speaker boundary interference, and to me most importantly constructive and in particular destructive interference. A good deal of the musical content will not be heard in most untreated rooms because of these important acoustical phenomena. Valleys in the bass response (as well as peaks) are a devil and reality for almost all untreated rooms.

I do get the over damped problem and personally like to use just enough bass trapping and no more with plenty of diffusion.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I understand Marc. I also appreciate your comment about which audiophile would ever claim his sound is not natural. I certainly would not have after all those years. But now, I have heard something different. Something I think is better. And I use my memory of live music as my reference against which I am the judge. Others may not see it this way. That is fine.

I love your comment about the girl with her makeup. I have two daughters who have a friend. The friend's father and I spent years taking the three of them all over the place to compete in sailing regattas. When they were in their early teens, this father, who remains a great friend, and I were quite surprised by the amount of makeup his daughter had put on, so early in the morning and before she was heading out to the race course. I remember my friend telling his daughter, "Julia, remember, 'less is more'". I wonder if he realized he was quoting the great architect, Ludwig Mies van der Rohe. I find myself often thinking of this when I see someone with too much make up on her face.

I suppose the same could be said about room acoustic treatments.

Peter, after a couple of years of Ked slating my sound in my old room, and my exasperation at his mantra of "acoustics are everything", it took literally a couple of moments of a non optimised approximated setup in my new room to see the light ("hear the sound"?), and to tip my hat to him and get bad digestion chomping down on a huge slice of Humble Pie.

This was again demonstrated in dramatic terms when I sorted a final acoustic "hole" in my room...a totally dramatic uptick that has opened up smoother bass response and solid imaging in a way I could never have imagined.

Maybe I'm getting the "energy management" thing you're extolling, to add to the advantage I have in this room (4x the volume of a typical British living space) of 70W Class A triodes/300W Class D subs into 101dB/1m/steady 8 Ohms spkrs fully saturating the room at moderate levels, and fullsome even below.

All I know is that the room is totally the key for me, and the immersive energy of even a simple solo acoustic guitar feels very reminiscent of live acoustic instruments in the churches and halls we (used to) attend concerts in.

 

[bonzo75]

Sorry I didn't say acoustics are everything, not all people get great acoustics, you have to manage within. I definitely said they are important, and also suggested that you stop spending on tweaks and spend on speakers. If you count the amount of money spent on tweaks since I said that

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sorry I didn't say acoustics are everything, not all people get great acoustics, you have to manage within. I definitely said they are important, and also suggested that you stop spending on tweaks and spend on speakers. If you count the amount of money spent on tweaks since I said that

Did you say that before or after you sold me your Shun Mooks? Lol.

 

[bonzo75]

Did you say that before or after you sold me your Shun Mooks? Lol.

Always. I still have four sets, sold you one

 

[Lagonda]

Sorry I didn't say acoustics are everything, not all people get great acoustics, you have to manage within. I definitely said they are important, and also suggested that you stop spending on tweaks and spend on speakers. If you count the amount of money spent on tweaks since I said that

I tell him that about once a week

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm so pleased this thread is about Peter and not me.

 

[PeterA]

I'm so pleased this thread is about Peter and not me.

I hope this thread is more about the sound of our systems in our rooms. The private messages are about the personalities involved.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Sure Peter, I just would rather the time-worn criticism of my choices wasn't brought up here.

 

[PeterA]

Sure Peter, I just would rather the time-worn criticism of my choices wasn't brought up here.

I totally agree. You have your own system thread for that. This is not the place to discuss the stuff that happens in your room with your system or would people think about your system.

 

[tima]

Your comments re: listening to my voice in each space makes a lot of sense as a way to perceive “natural”. In my listening room the difference of the feel of the room is immediate, you don’t need to say anything. Yes, my voice does change some and I think I need to go outdoors then come back in for a good evaluation. In the rest of my house the sound is very “alive” but this, to me, isn’t really natural as there is so much reflected sound it borders on “echo-y” which is really apparent once you get a half dozen people in. Holiday parties are extremely loud — we’ve all been in restaurants with very open plan and its hard to hear the person across the table. Is this “natural”?

I don't remember from yr system description if Wilson or a Wilson dealer set up your Alexias in your new/re-done room, but they probably set up the Alexias somewhere for you when you bought them. The vocal technique that @ddk discusses and that you pick-up here is very similar to part of the Wilson 'WASP' method developed by Dave Wilson. I don't think it is unique to any one set-up person. If nothing else it gets one to hear the difference in his voice according to where it is in the room and the impact that standing closer to walls (back & side) has on the way it sounds.

I'm thinking maybe we each have a 'natural' reference and there is no absolute natural. I remember sound in my living room w/ hardwood floor without furniture and how it changed when we added furniture and a rug, then when we had a bookcase built into one wall, and then when that was filled with books. Same with other rooms in the house. Then there is a concert hall, which has a particular sound and atmosphere, as well as other places and rooms. There is no Kaaba that audiophiles must visit once in their life to experience the sound of natural.

David might say, well if you have to think about it, then it isn't natural which is a very simple, know it when you have it notion. (Hopefully, he'll correct this.) @PeterA, too, how do you know 'natural' when you hear it. We don't need the epistomology (ooo scary big word) to appreciate the concept, but for those playimg along at home, it might be helpful.