Sublime Sound

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Tim, I think of my reference to live music in a concert hall. The more the sound from the system resembles that, the more natural I think that sound is. Of course there is a range, and there are degrees.

One simple example is when I listen to some radio stations in my truck, some purposefully increase the low frequency information on the voices and it just doesn’t sound like anyone I ever encounter in real life.

This was put to the test last night when I heard Al’s system and we did a comparison between using two new isolation transformers versus the system straight into the wall. I simply referenced my memory of live music and knew instantly which sounded more natural.
 
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Jun 13, 2013
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In the year that it took to get our chapel renovated, and dedicated listening room in the loft constructed, I seriously worried I'd sunk £40k into a white elephant.

On going up to the room for the first time with my girlfriend and chatting about things, it became immediately evident that it was a naturally warm, intelligible acoustic. Speech was so easy to follow, hugely noticeable compared to the slightly hard, echoey acoustic I had in my previous apartment.

And this was then carried on when I played the first minutes of music and a wholly more enjoyable, smooth and expressive sound was experienced, the stress of anxious anticipation literally melted away.

I think I know what Bobvin is trying to express.
 
Feb 4, 2014
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I totally agree. You have your own system thread for that. This is not the place to discuss the stuff that happens in your room with your system or would people think about your system.
I’m sorry Peter i disagree, anywhere we can make a little fun of Marc is fair game;) As long as we keep it to one line. Ups :rolleyes:
 
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spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
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Hey, I'm used to it. The scars run deep.
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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Marc administers his calculated revenges with perfect timing. I live for them.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Like Gazpacho soup.
 
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PeterA

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Resistance is futile. Carry on gentlemen!
 
May 30, 2010
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What additional clarification does parentheses make? It's the same word and it's same meaning and there's no more ambiguity when I or Peter used the word. Speaking for myself and Peter neither one of us was attempting to mislead you or anyone else, the confusion and lack of apprehension is yours.

The point of the article is no such thing he talks specifically about RPG diffusors and purchasing acoustical and plastering over his front that anyone can do so where's the professional aspect that you mention? The only specificity I found in the article is about the RPGs themselves and something about the front wall that he was covering with them. What else?

Your interest in Toole is fine but how does your desire to discuss him relate to @PeterA's experience and activities or detract from what he accomplished? Knowledge of emotion in humans goes back to dawn of mankind, what's your point here?

We weren't discussing Mr. Yates the article you linked is purely a subjective account. But, strictly speaking ears are also measurement instruments and very sophisticated ones that an experienced person can use and relate objective account of the sound being "Natural".

We didn't send anything down the hill Francisco, he has a shell designed with certain qualities that we left alone. We simply dealt with the way energy flow patten and absorption qualities of in the room. Moving the listening seat to a more suitable position is dealing with the energy which is already there. We took measurements with our ears which both Steve & I are fully capable of doing and used a practical approach, ie moved the chair up by 1.5-2m. Of course we could have called Mr. Yates and Mr. Toole to fly in and have the room torn apart and remade in their vision using whatever systems they recommend/sell and hope for something better which is what you're arguing for. Have you invited Mr. Yates to your place and see what you end up with? Is setting up the system part of what they do? What happens when you make changes to the system, are going to call them in again?

I don't understand it and keep asking the same question Francisco, why are you working so hard to diminish the value of what Peter has achieved by himself? Nothing against Mr. Yates, Mr. Toole or other names that you like to drop from time but have never heard any of their products nor have you heard Peter's setup to be able to judge his approach. We are not all sheep in the professional community, we don't always agree nor do we use the same methodology. Circumstances, experience, and specially commercial interests have a direct influence on how we approach and what we offer the individual. A $1m budget and an plot of land to build a dedicated space requires one type of professional approach, a shared living space with no or little budget deserves and different one. Theoretical knowledge and name dropping is fine but only after your first 30-40 professional setups (includes room builds) you may also realize that there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat! You don't have to agree but frankly you should appreciate @PeterA's efforts and the time he has taken the time to share and maybe offer us some personal accomplishments of your own, name dropping and linking obtuse commercial links takes it only so far.

david
David,

I can't understand why you insist changing systematically the subject and intention of my posts. I address perspectives of sound reproduction, using information and knowledge from sources I document and quote, in order to be transparent and allow a fair discussion.

You try to transform the discussion in a fight between members of WBF. I have a fair relation with Peter and other members, no need for your condescendent advice. As far as I have seen he is able to speak for himself. You seem unable to accept any peaceful criticism and always try to create a belligerent personal style to avoid any debate of ideas. The only point I was addressing concerning Steve room and system was the Bonnie acoustic treatment, nothing else. And just online with Bob interesting and straight question.

IMHO the real looser is the forum, that was supposed to be a nice place to debate stereo perspectives.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Francisco, we would not be debating natural sound or managing the energy in the room if it were not for David. As far as I can see, the forum benefits from ideas outside of the conventional wisdom. David provides some of those ideas and he has a very direct and easily understandable way of explaining those ideas.

In my opinion he has only added clarity to the ideas expressed on this thread. He cuts through the BS. It is others who seem argumentative from where I sit.
 
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ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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David,

I can't understand why you insist changing systematically the subject and intention of my posts. I address perspectives of sound reproduction, using information and knowledge from sources I document and quote, in order to be transparent and allow a fair discussion.

You try to transform the discussion in a fight between members of WBF. I have a fair relation with Peter and other members, no need for your condescendent advice. As far as I have seen he is able to speak for himself. You seem unable to accept any peaceful criticism and always try to create a belligerent personal style to avoid any debate of ideas. The only point I was addressing concerning Steve room and system was the Bonnie acoustic treatment, nothing else. And just online with Bob interesting and straight question.

IMHO the real looser is the forum, that was supposed to be a nice place to debate stereo perspectives.
I didn't change subjects, I answered your question on Steve's room, commented on your article and didn't get involved in your conversation with Bob. I see an insincerity and deliberate put downs in many of your posts here and asked you a sincere question about your intent!

david
 
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howiebrou

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Jun 29, 2012
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I think it is time for some music, preferably with a beer!;)
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Tim, I think of my reference to live music in a concert hall. The more the sound from the system resembles that, the more natural I think that sound is. Of course there is a range, and there are degrees.
Thanks, Peter. I kinda thought that's what you would say. The reality of live sound in the venue where it occurs no more, no less - what else could be natural.

While we don't have ready access to most of the venues we hear on recordings, I believe we have a 'composite' in our heads aggregated across multiple experiences, from a string group in a church or living room to a large concert hall or playing an instrument ourselves. The sound of a cello - it's not that cello (unless it's playing before you) or a specific cello (unless it is very familiar), but the recollection of various cellos over time. What do you think? (or anyone?)
 
Feb 4, 2014
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Maybe some nice accordian music?
Beer goes down best with OmpaOmpa brass music like they play in Munich for Oktoberfest ;)
 

ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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I don't remember from yr system description if Wilson or a Wilson dealer set up your Alexias in your new/re-done room, but they probably set up the Alexias somewhere for you when you bought them. The vocal technique that @ddk discusses and that you pick-up here is very similar to part of the Wilson 'WASP' method developed by Dave Wilson. I don't think it is unique to any one set-up person. If nothing else it gets one to hear the difference in his voice according to where it is in the room and the impact that standing closer to walls (back & side) has on the way it sounds.
It isn't unique and it's an old technic, many arrive there intuitively but it's not that common or known either. Dave Wilson was great proponent of using listening as the ultimate arbiter.

I'm thinking maybe we each have a 'natural' reference and there is no absolute natural. I remember sound in my living room w/ hardwood floor without furniture and how it changed when we added furniture and a rug, then when we had a bookcase built into one wall, and then when that was filled with books. Same with other rooms in the house. Then there is a concert hall, which has a particular sound and atmosphere, as well as other places and rooms. There is no Kaaba that audiophiles must visit once in their life to experience the sound of natural.
That's very true it's not based on any one thing or space it's based on all of our natural experience in the world outside. There's a natural way that we all experience sound, noise, atmosphere, presence, etc. in different spaces and events use this daily experience as a reference and compare it to what you hear from the system. It's more than auditory.

David might say, well if you have to think about it, then it isn't natural which is a very simple, know it when you have it notion. (Hopefully, he'll correct this.) @PeterA, too, how do you know 'natural' when you hear it. We don't need the epistemology (ooo scary big word) to appreciate the concept, but for those playimg along at home, it might be helpful.
I don't know how to respond here Tim. I've described "natural" a lot more than "you'll know it when you hear it" and @PeterA tried a different angle with the "Wide Listening Window" article which crashed and burned. I'll plagiarize Mr. Yates in another attempt and a narrow description of natural; listening naturally ie emotionally is a step toward the real, live experience of participating in the original music-making event. Some of the ways of getting there is well documented by @PeterA in this thread.

david
 
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bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
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Apologies in advance - I have only skimmed a little here and there as many pages of posts pertaining to the management of acoustics.

The bit that I don’t follow around the discussion of management of energy is the following:

Treating rooms won’t actually yield less sound energy across the *musical content* simply because of modal interactions, speaker boundary interference, and to me most importantly constructive and in particular destructive interference. A good deal of the musical content will not be heard in most untreated rooms because of these important acoustical phenomena. Valleys in the bass response (as well as peaks) are a devil and reality for almost all untreated rooms.

I do get the over damped problem and personally like to use just enough bass trapping and no more with plenty of diffusion.
Exactly. There are many over damped treated rooms that are dead. There are many untreated rooms that sound bad due to lack of treatment. The trick is in getting it right which differs room to room and audiophile trial and error.

Nothing beats natural size and shape, and making sure the speaker matches the room, but that is very difficult to control
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Exactly. There are many over damped treated rooms that are dead. There are many untreated rooms that sound bad due to lack of treatment. The trick is in getting it right which differs room to room and audiophile trial and error.
And getting it right includes coming to understand that if some works well, more may not.
 
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ddk

Industry Expert
May 19, 2013
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Yes - I understand - was trying to keep it simple and draw you out. :) And I agree hearing is more than auditory alone.
I haven't been hiding :)!

david
 

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