Everyone reads for entertainment. Such threads are fun. I have seen many such reruns during lockdown
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Everyone reads for entertainment. Such threads are fun. I have seen many such reruns during lockdown
Haha, Peter...no similar issues in my day job. But only at conferences and training days involving philosophical introspection.
My day job is enjoyable like my day to day listening. I help people get out of pain, will go philosophical in a few cases where patients are responsive. I love my playback, will go partial cod Shakespeare on epiphany exposition.
It's the quasi religious gate keepers of the broader profession that turn me off. Please, no more linking hands and asking me what am I *really* thinking. They don't wanna know Lol.
My day job is enjoyable like my day to day listening. I help people get out of pain, will go philosophical in a few cases where patients are responsive. I love my playback, will go partial cod Shakespeare on epiphany exposition.
It's the quasi religious gate keepers of the broader profession that turn me off. Please, no more linking hands and asking me what am I *really* thinking. They don't wanna know Lol.
No Peter, we had many, many threads addressing toe-in in WBF along the years. Enjoyable stereo and preference did not start in this thread ...
I would re-write:
"Yes, the manufacturer wants customer satisfaction, and that effort usually appears to revolve around the normal high-end experience. Yet as you say, it is about a sound that pleases each of us individually, and each may come to different conclusions."
Surely we have our preferences. However in my experience it is more efficient and rewarding getting products from manufacturers that show a similitude with our preferences than getting something that does not match our preference and then de-tuning it. IMHO imaging, layering and soundstage are fundamental aspects of sound and are connected with many other aspects such as microdynamics, detail and tonality. My Soundlab's A1px have a very different imaging than the XLF's and I enjoy both. But I do not try to make the Soundlab image like a Wilson or vice-versa.
IMHO researching on the brand, understanding the designer/manucturer aims and motivation, the technical aspects that support them before buying and using the equipment as suggested is not being sheepish. Wilson speakers are delivered with extensive manuals, with advice on room. Curioulsy their recommendation on room treatment is compatible with what is being suggested in this thread.
No Peter, we had many, many threads addressing toe-in in WBF along the years. Enjoyable stereo and preference did not start in this thread ...
Francisco, there were references to threads specifically about speaker toe in. I did a search on the site and that is the one I found. If you know of others could you please share a link. I would enjoy reading more on the subject. Thank you.
I realize full well that people are happy with their systems and enjoy them and they write about their experiences all the time. No where am I suggesting that anything I am doing is unique or the origination of anything. You seem very comfortable telling me the way things are.
As I read the many posts here, and Peter’s experience, and the description of energy in the room only now did I think of what Bonnie mentioned repeatedly as one of her primary goals in the acoustic remodel of my room... she wants to create a space that “feels” good. Nearly everyone who has visited my room has commented almost immediately how different the room feels than the upstairs kitchen area where we gather first for a bit of socializing and a glass of wine. The room is quiet and has a very peaceful, soothing feel to it. It feels warm and inviting. Speech is clear and intelligible. When Bonnie stopped by to evaluate at one point, between tracks, we were chatting and both stopped for a moment to comment on the feel of the room.
Without Peter or David visiting, I have no way to know if this relates to managing the energy in the room. All my walls are treated, but without the usual tampons stuck to the walls. (It was a design choice that acoustic materials not be visible. The construction and build is described in my room thread.) No doubt, however, I am fond of the hi-fi sound and my Wilsons, as setup, manifest the designers preferences. Perhaps I will grow weary of the sound and yearn for something new and different, but I am a bit lazy compared to many and not prone to monkeying about preferring to listen to music. It comes from fear of f’ing up what sounds really good (to me).
I do wonder about this “natural sound” idea. As my room is open to the house (if I draw back the curtains) what is playing downstairs can be heard upstairs. I have had visitors (who know nothing of my system) ask if someone is playing a piano downstairs (be they naive or flattering). And the sound upstairs can be very, very good but obviously has no hi-fi attributes of imaging, depth, or soundstage. Is this the “natural sound”? Downstairs I have all this plus the hi-fi attributes as well as the visceral experience of energy of the timpani or kick drum. I like that—something Wilson’s do well.
Without Peter or David visiting, I have no way to know if this relates to managing the energy in the room. All my walls are treated, but without the usual tampons stuck to the walls. (It was a design choice that acoustic materials not be visible. The construction and build is described in my room thread.) No doubt, however, I am fond of the hi-fi sound and my Wilsons, as setup, manifest the designers preferences. Perhaps I will grow weary of the sound and yearn for something new and different, but I am a bit lazy compared to many and not prone to monkeying about preferring to listen to music. It comes from fear of f’ing up what sounds really good (to me).
I do wonder about this “natural sound” idea. As my room is open to the house (if I draw back the curtains) what is playing downstairs can be heard upstairs. I have had visitors (who know nothing of my system) ask if someone is playing a piano downstairs (be they naive or flattering). And the sound upstairs can be very, very good but obviously has no hi-fi attributes of imaging, depth, or soundstage. Is this the “natural sound”? Downstairs I have all this plus the hi-fi attributes as well as the visceral experience of energy of the timpani or kick drum. I like that—something Wilson’s do well.
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Your perseverance thru all the muck dragging over the years on your system thread is admirable and very much appreciated. You post some of the most thought proviking and interesting thoughts/observations on WBF...... I too am confused as to the voracity that some of your observations generate......
It's hardly muck dragging, don't exaggerate. Peter has an admirable system, sound and method. I dont see anyone criticising his sound or approach. It works for him, that's all that matters. This has been the only time I've commented negatively, and that's on his current descriptive sense, and why I personally remain a little uneasy over how he's chosen his words and concepts.
Muck dragging? So far off the mark.
Muck dragging? So far off the mark.
Francisco, do you really think I would have been willing to sacrifice any microdynamics? I didn't. And detail resolution and just plain information of what is actually on the recording have never been as good as they are now. Tonality has never been better as well.
And I am not trying to make my Reference 3A Reflector speakers into anything than the Reference 3A Reflector speakers that are the very best sounding in my environment and according to my preferences.
My preferences are mine, not slavishly born from some "proper" high end "standard", whatever that may mean, which I feel obliged to adhere to.
I think the summary here for speaker toe-in is... IT DEPENDS...
To all of you who keep arguing about this, stop being so silly! Some speakers sound noticeably better with it (like my horns) and some sound better with none (Like my Reference 3A Master Control MMCs) and some with a tiny bit (like my big panels). It also depends on how much focus one wants (although I think there should be a correct amount and personal taste SHOULD have a limited say here but clearly it does not).
Speakers with ragged off-axis response or deliberately restricted dispersion (like horns) will probably sound best toed-in and speakers with wide, even dispersion should be fine with little to no toe-in.
Thanks. Sorry I considered Ching Cheng to be Taiwanese so that was where i got confused. I also have a few in my system. Much better than stock ones.
I agree Al. I was planning a very similar response to Fransisco, but you did it first. If anything, I hear "more" and better from your system with it's latest set up changes. And I do from my system as well. Nothing has suffered and all relevant aspects of the sound have improved for me, including as Fransisco writes" imaging, layering and soundstage are fundamental aspects of sound and are connected with many other aspects such as microdynamics, detail and tonality." All of that is better, in your system, and in mine, IMO. By "better", I mean not more pronounced or hyped, but more natural and life like. To want otherwise, is not my goal in the hobby.
Sorry Keith. I never meant to imply that your new speakers are not set up correctly. I simply asked the question because I was curious to know if you had tried it. That was all. Sorry to have suggested otherwise.
I also never intended to imply that you have some artificial sound with no energy. What did I write to make you think that? Toe-in is not some disease, or cult, or Kool-aid. It is simply a different set up appealing to some. I apologize for writing something that solicited such a reaction from you.
Really, "SHOULD have a limited say"? This does sound like the trappings of a high end cult, whose prescriptions members are expected to dutifully adhere to.
Peter,
Just use this link. https://www.google.com/search?q="toe"+site:whatsbestforum.com&lr=&as_qdr=all&ei=8VKHX8T9GLqEjLsP09mggAU&start=20&sa=N&ved=2ahUKEwiEuvCK6rTsAhU6AmMBHdMsCFA4ChDw0wN6BAgFEEE&biw=1408&bih=637
You will find tens of references about "toeing" speakers - concerning all kind of speakers - and also some posts on toe-tapping!
And yes, I try to tell how I think things are, not how I imagine they should be. But I am happy to learn if I am wrong - I remember I only met F. Toole writings first time in this forum long ago.
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Having read the descriptions of the great work Bonnie did in your and Steve room's I doubt that it can be "natural". If you can feel the room as something special it should not be "natural"!
But I hope others will chime on this subject. ASC (tube traps) are known to treat their rooms for being clear and intelligible - they even developed the MATT (Music Articulation Test Tone) to assist in the installation of their products. The concept of energy in the room has been used adequately since long. Look for this Keith Yates excellent article that I have pointed many times in WBF and search for "energ" in the text - it uses the word energy or derivatives with many clear senses many times. http://keithyates.com/a-matter-of-diffusion/
Although I fully agree with your first two paragraphs I think that the degree of toe-in also depends a lot on axial frequency response and room acoustics.
Hi Bob,
"Natural" is a commonly used descriptor in all contexts because there's no apparent difficulty for people to comprehend it's meaning, it's no different in audio and how Peter or I and some others use it. It's an everyday word. We all live in a world with spaces and rooms, you know what most feel and sound like, if nothing else you know the sound of your own voice and those close to you in these rooms and open spaces, do you sound the same and normal in your listening room or does your voice change? Is there a hollowness that's abnormal? Depending on how your voice changes you can decide if your room is "natural" or not. Stand close to a boundary and say a few words and compare what you hear in the listening room vs the rest of the house which is your "natural" space. You'll have your answer.
david
Having read the descriptions of the great work Bonnie did in your and Steve room's I doubt that it can be "natural". If you can feel the room as something special it should not be "natural"!
According to the article,Yates disagrees with your comment and repeating my mantra, it is always an emotional experience!
"Listening naturally (emotionally), though, the RPGs seemed to represent a giant step toward the real, live experience of participating in the original music-making event."
But you're correct in your assumption of Bonnie's work, isolating and sealing a room from the rest of house in this way will end up being too dead, at least IMO.
The article mostly circles the bowl promoting RPG diffusors but I appreciate the fact that he approaches the subject through listening and mentions things like ambience and natural sound instead of posting a bunch of measurements. We seem to agree on absorbent wall tampons as well. Otherwise there's nothing in real world advice beyond buy RPGs. The company makes some great products and has a largish toolbox and if you're willing to spend the money for RPG and services of an experienced team you'll end up with a "Designed" space but that has nothing to do with system set up and dealing with the energy inside the shell with or without RPGs. The space and the energy still need to be managed with the listener, speakers and character of the room in mind and that's what @PeterA documented here, as step by step guide. Simple example is what we did in Steve's "designed" room, moved the listening chair to avoid the "design" capturing the energy that room robbed him of before. This is a prime example of what I mean by energy management.
david
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