Sublime Sound

PeterA

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Altough I do not consider myself as "opposition" - I say it is really what really happened. Most people keep their preferred tweaks (irrespective of price) . But yes, we also have different views on what are tweaks, we had a good thread on this subject.

Your answer including "energy management vs energy absorption" proves my point. A speech with plenty of ambiguity there, so that we can include or exclude anything.

Francisco, again this is not quite right. Isn’t the criticism about what I have done in my system with my tweaks and how I describe the effect? We’re not talking about most people and what they decide to do with most of their tweaks.

Energy absorption is pretty simple. I just removed the audio file room acoustic treatments in my room because it overdamped my room and sucked the life out of the system. The pneumatic isolation platforms did the same thing. The absorbed energy by over dampening the components.

Deciding what to keep and want to remove, managing the reflections versus the absorptions and how the speakers interact with the room boundaries, that is all about managing the energy.

David did not have to describe much to me. He used these simple terms and I understood right away what he meant. I do not see where the confusion or ambiguity comes from.

A short conversation, an email actually, taught me more than lots of posts, videos and books I have read on the subject. It did require a lot of listening and experimentation on my part to get it to where it is now, but that is likely simply because of my lack of experience.
 

bonzo75

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Every audiophile turns his speaker in, out, and moves them around to try different positions. I assume you did this before? So what changed now, is it that previously you had ignored the type of sound from straight on speakers, preferring toed in, and now you realized straight on did natural sound better because of removal of pinpoint imaging?
 
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XV-1

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I also tried the straight on cool aid. Moved the Wilsons so they were almost facing straight ahead. Had some positives but over a period of around 6 weeks more negatives.
Tonight I taped where they had been and moved them back to the " Wilson" toed towards the listener. Hate to admit it, but this sounds a lot better with better focus, better vocals and more integrated bass. Only thing you I don't have is the larger soundstage. Wilson know best imo.

I wonder if Peter will go back to toed in at some stage to see how it sounds :) BTW - What does Magico recommend?
 
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PeterA

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Every audiophile turns his speaker in, out, and moves them around to try different positions. I assume you did this before? So what changed now, is it that previously you had ignored the type pf sound from straight on speakers, preferring toed in, and now you realized straight on did natural sound better because of removal of pinpoint imaging?

Yes, that is some of it. I had never really tried pointing the speakers straight ahead because frankly, the Magico set up guide does not recommend this, and I had been taught by seeing most Magico and other brand speaker set ups to aim the speakers toward the listener. So it was not a matter of ignoring the sound. I had not really tried it before.

Once I decided to try zero toe in, I found that positioning the speakers in the room was harder than it was with toe in. Toeing the speakers toward the listener is more forgiving of position, at least I found this to be the case with my gear in my room. It took much more effort to get it right with zero toe in. So, I gave up a few times but eventually stuck with it, and found a satisfying position. It was not easy.

It was not just the pinpoint imaging. I described this a few posts ago. The soundstage changed considerably in shape and scale and the difference between recordings became more apparent. There was better layering. The sound became less constricted and more alive -more natural all around.
 

PeterA

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I also tried the straight on cool aid. Moved the Wilsons so they were almost facing straight ahead. Had some positives but over a period of around 6 weeks more negatives.
Tonight I taped where they had been and moved them back to the " Wilson" toed towards the listener. Hate to admit it, but this sounds a lot better with better focus, better vocals and more integrated bass. Only thing you I don't have is the larger soundstage. Wilson know best imo.

I wonder if Peter will go back to toed in at some stage to see how it sounds :) BTW - What does Magico recommend?

XV-1, I don't know why you and others keep referring to this as "cool-aid". I guess it goes along with some notion of some guru somewhere with his cult. I did go back after about a month, though I did not reinstall the room treatments, cables, and other audiophile accessories that I had removed during the set up changes. I did not like the sound for all the reasons I have explained.

I am not saying this is best, nor am I suggesting others do it. I am simply sharing what I have done. I did suggest it to one friend when listening to his system as something to try. His system in my view, jumped to life and sounded much much better. Another visitor agreed. IMO, he still has a bunch of fine tuning to do, and he may go back as you did one day. My point is that one finds what works best for him. Does Wilson know best? Who knows? Magico recommends pointing their speakers at the listener so that the tweeters cross a short distance behind the listening seat.

I think toe in is popular because it enhances the stereo image and I found it to be more forgiving of set up. It may be easier for the dealer to demo speakers and switch speakers, and easier for the DIY audiophile to get decent sound with less effort, but I am not really sure. It may also simply have a lot to do with familiarity and the sound most people are used to, especially with cone speakers. There are a lot of factors and preferences involved.
 

KeithR

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Magico recommends (like most) finding the best position for bass, then mids, and then toe-in to make the center image natural/stable.

I don't think there is any well-known speaker setup method that solves for toe-in, first.
 
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PeterA

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Magico recommends (like most) finding the best position for bass, then mids, and then toe-in to make the center image natural/stable.

I don't think there is any well-known speaker setup method that solves for toe-in, first.

Not exactly correct, Keith. You are correct that Magico does not solve for toe-in first, but it is not last either. It is integral to the process along the way. I have the "Magico Q3 User's Guide". They suggest starting with the bass which they say is dependent on the distance from the front wall. They then move on to adjusting for the midrange, "placement in relation to side walls". It is in this section that they discuss toe-in.

"We are listening for the image of her voice to be focused. The rule for the toe in is to pick a point approximately 1-2 feet behind the listener's head. Toe the speakers in to intersect at that point. If the sound is too bright, toe the speakers out a little more. If the sound is too dull, toe the speakers in a little more."

The guide goes on to say that the above process should be repeated at a new position, and so forth, to continue to repeat until satisfied. Then in the Summary section, they suggest to return to the bass set up to ensure that the speakers are the proper distance from the front wall. Then, when the process is completed, to "mark the location with tape so that the speakers can be returned there for further listening."

It seems to me that this is a back and forth proposition. It is iterative. Also interesting is that nowhere do they suggest zero toe in. They refer to a precise spot behind the listener's head and then adjusting only "a little more".

I followed this guide and got a sound I lived with and enjoyed for a long time. Then, as I thought more about my reference of live, real sound of instruments, I decided something was not right with my set up. I read a comment on one of David's posts about zero toe-in. I asked him about it. That is when I began the long process of experimentation. Each step along the way, I kept returning to more toe in and it always produced the same type of sound which I was increasingly dissatisfied with, so I held fast on zero toe in and adjusted distance and spacing until I found a satisfying position. This process took much longer than when I followed the Magico method of aiming the speakers at the listener's shoulders and making slight adjustments from there.

My center image is now just as stable, but it sounds more natural than before. In fact all images are very stable. There is actually better localization of images in space than there was before. The presentation is now more convincing. There is nothing wrong with toe in, it just sounds different. A member here who also has Q3s wrote me that he also had great results with zero toe in.

The lesson I learned is that the recommended toe in from Magico for my speakers did not give me the best results in my particular room. Others may have different results.

Have you tried zero toe in with your YG Haileys? With your wide room, it might be worth experimenting.
 
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ddk

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Altough I do not consider myself as "opposition" - I say it is really what really happened. Most people keep their preferred tweaks (irrespective of price) . But yes, we also have different views on what are tweaks, we had a good thread on this subject.

Your answer including "energy management vs energy absorption" proves my point. A speech with plenty of ambiguity there, so that we can include or exclude anything.

I don't make speeches nor deal in the theoretical Francisco, working with people doesn't allow me the luxury I must be practical and have to deliver the goods, usually on the spot. In very simple terms so we don't end up debating the effects of low frequencies in humpback mating calls on female whale's G Spot. Our sound systems deliver musical information/data inside sound waves spat out into contained but uncontrolled space. This wave is your information highway and when you start absorbing the wave/energy you're taking out information. Managing the energy is equivalent of organizing the flow and delivery of all the data contained in the waves with minimal loss, distortion and degradation to the recipient. I.e. preserve the energy preserve the information. Of course this is simplification and the actual process is more involved but it's also intuitive.

david
 
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ddk

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I also tried the straight on cool aid. Moved the Wilsons so they were almost facing straight ahead. Had some positives but over a period of around 6 weeks more negatives.
Tonight I taped where they had been and moved them back to the " Wilson" toed towards the listener. Hate to admit it, but this sounds a lot better with better focus, better vocals and more integrated bass. Only thing you I don't have is the larger soundstage. Wilson know best imo.

I wonder if Peter will go back to toed in at some stage to see how it sounds :) BTW - What does Magico recommend?
This isn't a controversial subject people have been setting up their speakers firing straight on since forever it's just more precise work to do it right. So I don't get the cool aid comment just because you didn't figure it out or simply prefer the sound beamed at you.

david
 
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XV-1

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This isn't a controversial subject people have been setting up their speakers firing straight on since forever it's just more precise work to do it right. So I don't get the cool aid comment just because you didn't figure it out or simply prefer the sound beamed at you.

david

The cool aid was a comedic comment, not directed at you or anyone.
As you said, moving speakers round have been going on since day dot.
More than happy to move mine around as well and probably will do it again when I change a component.

Cheers
 
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Kingsrule

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The cool aid was a comedic comment, not directed at you or anyone.
As you said, moving speakers round have been going on since day dot.
More than happy to move mine around as well and probably will do it again when I change a component.

Cheers
Sure didn't read/feel comedic....
 
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howiebrou

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Sure didn't read/feel comedic....

May be just a flavour of Antipodean humour :p

This chat about firing straight makes me want to try it with my Goebels. Right now they are firing towards the outer edge of each ear. I just worry my room is too narrow to fire straight but we'll see...
 
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microstrip

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I agree that gear is important, and as you say, you cannot get beyond a certain level without better components. However, it does not make a bigger difference than setup. The latter is at least as important. (...)

The idea of ranking priorities in general concerning systems seems absurd to me. Surely someone can say set up is important and then argue that any pair of speakers positioned behind a sofa does not sound good irrespective of the quality of the speaker.
 

XV-1

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Sure didn't read/feel comedic....

us Aussies are as dry as the hot Aussie sun. sounds like you need to drink some cool aid yourself :p
 
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Al M.

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XV-1

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Tango

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Come on guys. A little brushing won't burn your skin.
 

Al M.

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sounds like you two need to get a room.

Really? Trying to deflect from your cool aid comment by after-the-fact trying to whitewash it as humor? That's lame. You think we're stupid?

I like dry humor, and Marc and Bonzo regularly crack me up with it, but this clearly was not originally meant as humor.
 

KeithR

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Have you tried zero toe in with your YG Haileys? With your wide room, it might be worth experimenting.

Why do you believe my speakers aren't setup correctly?

i'll just go back to artificial sound in my room that sucks all the energy up because my system has contracted the toe-in disease and doesn't prefer chinese power cords.

Anyways, put me in the @bonzo75 and @spiritofmusic crowd on this thread's enya direction. i'll politely bow out.
 

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