Sublime Sound

howiebrou

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Jun 29, 2012
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Why do you believe my speakers aren't setup correctly?

i'll just go back to artificial sound in my room that sucks all the energy up because my system has contracted the toe-in disease and doesn't prefer chinese power cords.

Anyways, put me in the @bonzo75 and @spiritofmusic crowd on this thread's enya direction. i'll politely bow out.
Which Chinese power cords are these?
 
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tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Wilson know best imo.

At least they know what they want, namely customer satisfaction.

------------------------------

Part of the fun (and the chore) of audiophilia is positioning speakers in our rooms to obtain a sound that pleases us. I appreciate the time Peter takes to document not only his efforts but also the reasoning and motive behind them. Coming to clarity about theory and practice is some of what we do here. I suspect it has taken all of us some time to arrive at what we each want, what sonic characteristics we value and how best to achieve those. Maybe there is no end to that - maybe.

It may be hard to grasp when someone's values change, but there it is. Yet apostasy is not absolute growth or evolution, even if it feels like that to the person undergoing a change in direction. No one should feel out of sorts. If one person's change in approach causes some of us to question what we ourselves are doing or have been doing for years, that's okay - isn't it? If it doesn't, that's okay too. It's a hobby.
 

Al M.

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At least they know what they want, namely customer satisfaction.

------------------------------

Part of the fun (and the chore) of audiophilia is positioning speakers in our rooms to obtain a sound that pleases us. I appreciate the time Peter takes to document not only his efforts but also the reasoning and motive behind them. Coming to clarity about theory and practice is some of what we do here. I suspect it has taken all of us some time to arrive at what we each want, what sonic characteristics we value and how best to achieve those. Maybe there is no end to that - maybe.

It may be hard to grasp when someone's values change, but there it is. Yet apostasy is not absolute growth or evolution, even if it feels like that to the person undergoing a change in direction. No one should feel out of sorts. If one person's change in approach causes some of us to question what we ourselves are doing or have been doing for years, that's okay - isn't it? If it doesn't, that's okay too. It's a hobby.

Yes, the manufacturer wants customer satisfaction, and that effort usually appears to revolve around the normal "hi-fi" experience. Yet as you say, it is about a sound that pleases each of us individually, and each may come to different conclusions.

The designer of my Reference 3A Reflector monitors also recommends toe in, almost full toe in actually, whereas for my previous MM DeCapo BE monitors he recommends full toe out, because of different speaker geometry. Regardless, eventually also I have achieved the subjectively best result in my room with my Reflector monitors with full toe out, or close to it. Yet that also depends on speaker positioning. When I had the speakers considerably wider apart (and more dampened acoustics), the sound suffered a debilitating loss of dynamics, liveliness and loss of HF extension with full toe out. It was just dull and lacked energy.

The manufacturer's taste is not necessarily my taste, and as a customer I am free to use their product as I see fit. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with arriving at a setup, after some experimentation, that mirrors or comes close to the manufacturer's recommendations. Yet sheepishly taking a manufacturer's "authority" as the last word without further questioning, now that would be drinking the Koolaid and blindly obedient behavior not unlike that in a cult.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Really? Trying to deflect from your cool aid comment by after-the-fact trying to whitewash it as humor? That's lame. You think we're stupid?

I like dry humor, and Marc and Bonzo regularly crack me up with it, but this clearly was not originally meant as humor.
Anyone who doesn't think they're on the Kool Aid in this hobby really needs to check the ingredients on what they're drinking.

Btw Al, I always feel the drift to semantics on the forum needs a regular lacing of black humour, otherwise it's the Battle Of The Dictionaries...and if it's just the latter, we're better off leaving the hobby to the academic linguists.
 
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tima

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Yet sheepishly taking a manufacturer's "authority" as the last word without further questioning, now that would be drinking the Koolaid and blindly obedient behavior not unlike that in a cult.

For me personally, that's not useful language.

For one thing, I suspect people who buy a manufacturer's equipment have respect for the manufacturer and turn there first for information and advice about their equipment. We can argue about who is a better authority on a component than the people that created it but the maker is usually the best place to start. Some people might ask: "why would I buy a piece of equipment that I didn't like based on the way it was demonstrated to me?"

Moreso than a rebellion against authority and blind obdience, what I'm reading from you and Peter is a change in preference of presentation and the effort to use the equipment you have to steer your sound toward that presentation. You had a motive, a rationale, for trying different set up changes. That's a thoughtful way to proceed.
 
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tima

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Btw Al, I always feel the drift to semantics on the forum needs a regular lacing of black humour, otherwise it's the Battle Of The Dictionaries...and if it's just the latter, we're better off leaving the hobby to the academic linguists.

Be careful Marc - don't let the big words cut off your tongue to spite your appetite for fun.

Is that black humor?
 

spiritofmusic

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Tim, no risk there. If we can all survive Covid w our collective sanity intact, being reactive to threads pales in comparison.

I'm afraid Peter did lose me in the middle of his communing with his animal spirit. It went beyond the normal flowery (mis)use of language that we're prone to, me 100% included, to an analysis of this hobby and it's effects that just doesn't sit with me.

Hey, I'm the number one target online for jibes on my epiphanous outbursts, and sticking doggedly to the Zu line, so I can show you the scars.

But there's enough nebulous, new age protestations in my line of complementary medicine, to make me run for the hills when I hear it in my downtime.

I can agree with Peter on one thing. If he's happy, I'm happy for him. Once I upgrade my tt motor with a Bocchino modded Sablon power cord and likely wax lyrical, I don't expect I'll get the same response from others Lol.
 
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Al M.

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For me personally, that's not useful language.

Of course it isn't, Tim. But I guess I have made my point.

For one thing, I suspect people who buy a manufacturer's equipment have respect for the manufacturer and turn there first for information and advice about their equipment. We can argue about who is a better authority on a component than the people that created it but the maker is usually the best place to start.

Certainly, that's a reasonable start from which to explore. Just don't take anything a manufacturer or dealer or other consultant says as the last word.

Moreso than a rebellion against authority and blind obdience, what I'm reading from you and Peter is a change in preference of presentation and the effort to use the equipment you have to steer your sound toward that presentation. You had a motive, a rationale, for trying different set up changes.

That is a fair interpretation.

That's a thoughtful way to proceed.

Thank you.
 
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XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Really? Trying to deflect from your cool aid comment by after-the-fact trying to whitewash it as humor? That's lame. You think we're stupid?

I like dry humor, and Marc and Bonzo regularly crack me up with it, but this clearly was not originally meant as humor.

I said it was humour, yet somehow you say I am lying. Not good form in anyone's language.

sometimes you septics wouldn't know black humour if it presented itself as a German tank and ran you over.

Which one of you are the People's Poet?

 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Which Chinese power cords are these?

Keith has sailed away and will not be reading this question, so I will answer for him: I use five Ching Cheng power cords that I got from David Karmeli. Of six cords I tried in my system, these were the best. The stock Chinese cords that came with my Pass Labs amplifiers came in second. They happen to also be made by Ching Cheng, but they are newer, shorter, and not hospital grade.
 

PeterA

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Dec 7, 2011
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Orinoco Flow, bro.

Brian, my friends and I would listen to that song repeatedly as we sailed for weeks along the coast of Maine. I was much younger then and more free. Things have a way of coming full circle.
 

MadFloyd

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May 31, 2010
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Is the appropriate thread to discuss zero toe-in or was another thread started for that?
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Is the appropriate thread to discuss zero toe-in or was another thread started for that?

Reruns. They all end the same way
 
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bonzo75

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Fast and the furious for example all are the same
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Groundhog Day has the rerun within the film itself. And the rerun to the rerun. And the rerun to the rerun to the rerun...
 
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PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
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At least they know what they want, namely customer satisfaction.

------------------------------

Part of the fun (and the chore) of audiophilia is positioning speakers in our rooms to obtain a sound that pleases us. I appreciate the time Peter takes to document not only his efforts but also the reasoning and motive behind them. Coming to clarity about theory and practice is some of what we do here. I suspect it has taken all of us some time to arrive at what we each want, what sonic characteristics we value and how best to achieve those. Maybe there is no end to that - maybe.

It may be hard to grasp when someone's values change, but there it is. Yet apostasy is not absolute growth or evolution, even if it feels like that to the person undergoing a change in direction. No one should feel out of sorts. If one person's change in approach causes some of us to question what we ourselves are doing or have been doing for years, that's okay - isn't it? If it doesn't, that's okay too. It's a hobby.

Tim, this is a nice post. I have been writing that I enjoyed for years the speaker position with toe-in as recommended by Magico. Jim Smith positioned my old Mini IIs with toe-in and I enjoyed that for years. All of the times I auditioned Magico speakers over the years, they were placed with toe-in. It is a different sound. I think it is a more forgiving set up, in that it is easier to find a nice position with toe-in. I think the reason is that the side wall reflections are less involved with the overall sound, but I do not really know. Positioning with toe-in is a satisfying sound, but I have a different preference now. That is all.

Regardless of toe-in, I agree that this is only a hobby for most of us, and what each one of us does is for his own benefit and enjoyment. He can choose to share his process and discovery with others, as I do here, or he can simply enjoy his system by himself or with friends and not share his progress or changes.

I remain confused as to why my posts, and this whole discussion for that matter, seems to cause such strong responses from some members here. How I decide to position my speakers in my room, or what power cords I use, should not in any way harm, threaten, or offend anyone else. I have tried to remain respectful, honest and measured in my responses to questions. It is, after all, just a hobby, and we are in it, supposedly, for enjoyment and conviviality.

It was a German friend who I believe first introduced me to Orinoco Flow. As we were sailing away into a fog bank to weather of some island, he would descend below to the galley and ask us for our fancy coffee orders. He offered espresso, cappuccino, plain coffee, decaf, with or without milk and sugar. We placed our orders, surprised at his resourcefulness. More than once did we wait in anticipation of his promises. Sadly, he always, without fail, handed us black coffee in tin cups, often luck warm. No milk, no sugar. Such were the simpler days. We were grateful nevertheless, and we simply smiled. We were together sailing away, and we were friends.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
7,802
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North Shore of Boston
Groundhog Day has the rerun within the film itself. And the rerun to the rerun. And the rerun to the rerun to the rerun...

Marc, this is somehow different. Glad to see that you did not leave the thread after all and are still here making comments. You seem to keep reading and commenting despite the similarity to the issues in your day job with your patients.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2011
7,802
3,459
760
North Shore of Boston

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