At least the ethernet board gets power from the PS so it can be argued that there is some interaction.
But your other points are spot on, IMO.
Matt
Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème
- Thread starter CKKeung
- Start date
At least the ethernet board gets power from the PS so it can be argued that there is some interaction.
But your other points are spot on, IMO.
Matt
My comment here has nothing to do with this specific topic, it's more about "noise"in a system. I hear several people refer to "noise" as something that you can hear. Ie, a ground loop produces very audible NOISE. Certain other equipment incompatibilities can produce an audible noise in one's system.
When I think of "noise" it is something that is only noticeable when it it has been removed. The system can sound amazing, quiet, dead black background, just perfect. THEN comes along something like TAS or the Taiko usb driver and everything takes a giant leap forward.
This leap forward that is shown by greater harmonics that are easily heard as well with a freeing of the sonic presentation that allows a much more open and layered soundstage is all caused by a reduction in the noise that prior you could not hear.
Removal of this unheard noise is only noticed by when it is removed and you know that it was removed because of the instantly noticeable upticks in the sonics.
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steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
all good questiions
When I did my research on the Lampi DACs there seemed to be a lot of talk that the ethernet port generates noise. This together with the fact that I was never going to use Ethernet, made the decision easy for me . As for resale that is not an issue that concerns me
What a disaster. (Frankly this sounds like something Lukasz would do.) It goes directly to the point in my last post. The design of the ethernet renderer in the dac is a fundamental part of the analysis.
I did not know that there was a WiFi radio in there. It would definitely be advantageous to turn that off.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I may also be mistaken and hate to create wrong information but I am hearing that next generation Lampi's won't have an ethernet port
when i removed the MSB Renderer v2 module (plugged in but not active) from my MSB Select II dac, the noise floor dropped while using the MSB Pro USB interface.
having an active Ethernet hub in a dac can't help when it's not being used. it can only hurt.....or best case no effect.
having an active Ethernet hub in a dac can't help when it's not being used. it can only hurt.....or best case no effect.
Mike,
To be clear, when you say "plugged in" you mean the Renderer was connected to the ethernet and thereby an active network? This would make sense to me as the active network can mean a lot of different things. A noisy network, even if the dac is not playing over the ethernet connection, could create what you are hearing. But the MSB R v2 Renderer connected to a server designed to "direct stream" over ethernet which both isolates the network and, specifically, very quietly serves the renderer are totally different animals.
no; i mean plugged into the dac physically, so standby power, but not actively connected. with MSB Select II the renderer is a module that can be removed. but when it's attached (to the dac slot) it does 'see' power. even if it's not engaged. so it's a sleeping CPU. like plugging in a laptop without turning it on. it's got active circuits. like how an ethernet circuit inside a dac not being used might likely not help things.
when i actually physically removed the 'dormant' renderer module, and substituted a different interface module, the noise floor dropped. i don't want to over-state this, the difference was not big. but MSB likely has more invested in eliminating noise than most anyone else on this issue. less heroic on board wired in Ethernet circuits (sitting there unused) likely exact higher penalties.
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Thank you to all who replied to my questions and moved the discussion along. I understand the issues a little better now.
Steve Z
Steve Z
Yes Mike I have the Renderer V2 in my Reference Dac. I am sorry I was not clear. More specifically, when the higher noise floor occurred was a live ethernet cable (from your network) connected to the Renderer? If so, what ever is on that network can be very noisy and have the impact you describe even if you are listening to a source other than the network. That would make sense but the mere presence of the Renderer raising the noise floor would be a head scratcher.
it's time for a tentative and very subject to update readout.
quick bottom line:
i'm a very happy camper
a little more:
i've got about 150+ hours on my extreme but i am reluctant to give anything approaching a detailed
opinion as there are still baseline changes to be made, but let's see how it goes.
i've moved the extreme from the floor in the next room to my main equipment rack where it feeds a TotalDAC reclocker/D1-Direct DAC and i also have Taiko driver 5.0 (the latest) which enables the 4096 buffer.
i can't compare this to old drivers or roon (which is disabled and i will never use) but there are a couple of
easy conclusions to make:
1. running optical fiber instead for copper cat6 is a step up in SQ (i experienced cockpit errors getting the optical to work, which was solved by pushing the *&! SFP in a little harder). optical is sourced from a ubiquiti edgerouterX-sfp, with a linear power source, which isolates the digital audio path from the other ethernet activity in the house.
2, optical isolation on the USB path is also beneficial to SQ (as noted previously by @raydude). a slimrunUSB (with a good 5v linear supply) + SablonUSB is a step up from the Sablon alone. i had previously needed to use the 50ft simrunUSB when the server (extreme now, NUC previously) was in the next room as i needed to temporarily (promised my wife) run a cable around a chair, behind a speaker and radiator, across the fireplace hearth, behind the other speaker then behind some plants to my equipment rack.
some things under consideration:
3. i am using a lower end Shunyata power cable to the extreme. many here have validated the benefit of better power cables, such as the Sablon prince and king. those recommendations were made prior to the latest round of taiko enhancements.
hopefully (for me), the benefit of a better power cable would be even larger now. can anyone make that comparison easily?
4. my rack does not have sufficient room on the shelf to add a daiza beneath the extreme, never mind two of them a la @raydude. i have centerstage2 footers (medium size) under my DAC and may try to put them under the extreme but perhaps the weight is too great for that size footer? is anyone using centerstage2 under the extreme?
tentative first thoughts:
5. i'm doing my critical listening through STAX009 with a number of my reference tracks. buffer size changes are readily audible and repeatable, with 4096 appearing to be a sweet spot. my analogy is to imagine a 3 dimensional sculptural carving in front of you. with a buffer of 2048, the image is squeezed towards the center which gives a feeling of congestion. with a buffer of 8096, the image is stretched out further from the center but the depth is pulled in, resulting in a flatter image and smoothing of details. with 4096, the detail versus width versus depth is in a much better balance. i'd love to know why those tradeoffs exist and what, in fact, is the proper/ideal/absolute presentation?
6. the key for me, with many types of music, is being able to follow multiple musical lines at the same time, or to follow one line intensely while still being aware of the others, and how they mesh and support each other. for example, on bonnie raitt's "angel from montgomery", how easy is it to hear each of the 3 guitars (two electric, one acoustic) as they pop in and out in counterpoint? on john renbourn's "at the break of day", each of his guitar parts is beautiful but the way they integrate is magical, as it is on jerry douglas et al's "from ankara to izmir" (if you haven't heard the album, "skip, hop & wobble", get thee to your qobuz!) they key to following multiple lines, for me, is eliminating congestion and the ability to present instruments and voices as separate entities in space.
7. vocals are absolutely and consistently superb, joan baez's voice (very grating on less than excellent digital) is gorgeous, full and projecting wonderfully on "it's all over now, baby blue" and the key for me is hearing the individual strings of the acoustic guitar cleanly below her huge voice. with less than excellent digital, the guitar is a brushed, congested backing. vocal choruses and background vocals are wonderful, as with the weaver's "guantanamera", steeleye span's "gaudette", ramirez's "la misa criolla", alison krauss' live version of "down to the river to pray".
8. bass is simply superb, with no one-notedness in sight. i love hearing the sound of a finger on a bass string and how it rolls and shapes the bass note.
10. jump factor: one of my favorites for this is ellington's "concerto for cootie" from "the great paris album". the horn just jumps out at you through the speakers. a lot of this comes from the black background that sounds erupt from.
summary:
the relaxed, easy presentation is very good, particularly after the improvements made by points 1 and 2 above.
however, i'm certain there is more to be obtained here (though perhaps i'm limited by points 3 or 4 or maybe something else).
once upon a time, i achieved what felt like audio nirvana with an even easier, more relaxed yet detailed presentation (but without the bass i get now). i have to admit, in retrospect, that it was nothing but dumb luck that got me to that synergistic, holy &$! moment but clearly low noise, batteries, grounding, maybe the clock achieved something that hit way way above it's weight. that digital network, for those interested, was hqp embedded running on a generic ubuntu pc (shared with SageTV so also running my DVR and video streamer as well), cat 6 cable through a 24 port netgear router and 50ft cat 6 cable to a microRendu (not ultra or optical) powered by a SoTM battery. usb out of the microRendu went to a SoTM txusbHD (a usb to aes/ebu) equipped with the super clock option and also battery powered, to a TotalDAC d1-dual. MAGIC.........and then audio nirvana (an audio buddy said back then after hearing the system, "you're done") was corrupted by audio nervosa and i 'upgraded' stuff and destroyed the best sounding system i had ever heard. i have spent years trying to get back to that sound that i can still hear in my head and know is achievable, totally relaxed with infinite detail at the same time.
to be clearer, the extreme has given me the best bass and best vocal projection i've ever heard, period. the soundstage and detail are top notch but not YET the absolute best i've ever heard. when that is nailed, time seems to slow down as an infinite sequence of tiny details pop out of the silence and your attention to (and awareness of) each one fills each second of music with more details than were ever obvious before, but in a completely relaxed (and unobtrusive) manner. it is certainly possible (likely?) that the missing piece for me, which i hypothesize to be related to the noise floor, could be an appropriate power cord so anticipate that i'll have to go into power cord demo mode next.
i even have a couple of specific items i'm tracking on my way back to audio nirvana:
i hear a great jump factor with lead instruments (loud) but i think there could be more for sounds further down in the mix.
there could be a more relaxed, easy presentation of sound stage while maintaining infinite detail (e.g. guitar behind baez can have more delicacy and detail of fingers on strings, more modulation and breath on vocal)
starting from something great, even greater can be expected. it's like being fortunate enough to attend an astonishing concert that forever colors your views of what music can be (keith jarrett @ carnegie hall, grateful dead@watkins glen soundcheck, where you hang from every note in amazement and joy at being so lucky)
with all the upgrades and focus on networking and real-time-optimized NUCs and cables, i have made many improvements but the MAGIC was still beyond the horizon. the taiko extreme is the only thing that has brought me within sight of this holy grail and the discussion and evaluation on this forum was so consonant with my search that i made the plunge for the most expensive audio purchase i have ever made..........and i have no regrets.
i'm happy to be on the bus and truly looking forward to the continuing progress of this journey.
it's great to be in the hands of emile and team, who are clearly our leading experts in this field where EFTM.
edit: so much for not getting into detail
2nd edit: clarification in summary
quick bottom line:
i'm a very happy camper
a little more:
i've got about 150+ hours on my extreme but i am reluctant to give anything approaching a detailed
opinion as there are still baseline changes to be made, but let's see how it goes.
i've moved the extreme from the floor in the next room to my main equipment rack where it feeds a TotalDAC reclocker/D1-Direct DAC and i also have Taiko driver 5.0 (the latest) which enables the 4096 buffer.
i can't compare this to old drivers or roon (which is disabled and i will never use) but there are a couple of
easy conclusions to make:
1. running optical fiber instead for copper cat6 is a step up in SQ (i experienced cockpit errors getting the optical to work, which was solved by pushing the *&! SFP in a little harder). optical is sourced from a ubiquiti edgerouterX-sfp, with a linear power source, which isolates the digital audio path from the other ethernet activity in the house.
2, optical isolation on the USB path is also beneficial to SQ (as noted previously by @raydude). a slimrunUSB (with a good 5v linear supply) + SablonUSB is a step up from the Sablon alone. i had previously needed to use the 50ft simrunUSB when the server (extreme now, NUC previously) was in the next room as i needed to temporarily (promised my wife) run a cable around a chair, behind a speaker and radiator, across the fireplace hearth, behind the other speaker then behind some plants to my equipment rack.
some things under consideration:
3. i am using a lower end Shunyata power cable to the extreme. many here have validated the benefit of better power cables, such as the Sablon prince and king. those recommendations were made prior to the latest round of taiko enhancements.
hopefully (for me), the benefit of a better power cable would be even larger now. can anyone make that comparison easily?
4. my rack does not have sufficient room on the shelf to add a daiza beneath the extreme, never mind two of them a la @raydude. i have centerstage2 footers (medium size) under my DAC and may try to put them under the extreme but perhaps the weight is too great for that size footer? is anyone using centerstage2 under the extreme?
tentative first thoughts:
5. i'm doing my critical listening through STAX009 with a number of my reference tracks. buffer size changes are readily audible and repeatable, with 4096 appearing to be a sweet spot. my analogy is to imagine a 3 dimensional sculptural carving in front of you. with a buffer of 2048, the image is squeezed towards the center which gives a feeling of congestion. with a buffer of 8096, the image is stretched out further from the center but the depth is pulled in, resulting in a flatter image and smoothing of details. with 4096, the detail versus width versus depth is in a much better balance. i'd love to know why those tradeoffs exist and what, in fact, is the proper/ideal/absolute presentation?
6. the key for me, with many types of music, is being able to follow multiple musical lines at the same time, or to follow one line intensely while still being aware of the others, and how they mesh and support each other. for example, on bonnie raitt's "angel from montgomery", how easy is it to hear each of the 3 guitars (two electric, one acoustic) as they pop in and out in counterpoint? on john renbourn's "at the break of day", each of his guitar parts is beautiful but the way they integrate is magical, as it is on jerry douglas et al's "from ankara to izmir" (if you haven't heard the album, "skip, hop & wobble", get thee to your qobuz!) they key to following multiple lines, for me, is eliminating congestion and the ability to present instruments and voices as separate entities in space.
7. vocals are absolutely and consistently superb, joan baez's voice (very grating on less than excellent digital) is gorgeous, full and projecting wonderfully on "it's all over now, baby blue" and the key for me is hearing the individual strings of the acoustic guitar cleanly below her huge voice. with less than excellent digital, the guitar is a brushed, congested backing. vocal choruses and background vocals are wonderful, as with the weaver's "guantanamera", steeleye span's "gaudette", ramirez's "la misa criolla", alison krauss' live version of "down to the river to pray".
8. bass is simply superb, with no one-notedness in sight. i love hearing the sound of a finger on a bass string and how it rolls and shapes the bass note.
10. jump factor: one of my favorites for this is ellington's "concerto for cootie" from "the great paris album". the horn just jumps out at you through the speakers. a lot of this comes from the black background that sounds erupt from.
summary:
the relaxed, easy presentation is very good, particularly after the improvements made by points 1 and 2 above.
however, i'm certain there is more to be obtained here (though perhaps i'm limited by points 3 or 4 or maybe something else).
once upon a time, i achieved what felt like audio nirvana with an even easier, more relaxed yet detailed presentation (but without the bass i get now). i have to admit, in retrospect, that it was nothing but dumb luck that got me to that synergistic, holy &$! moment but clearly low noise, batteries, grounding, maybe the clock achieved something that hit way way above it's weight. that digital network, for those interested, was hqp embedded running on a generic ubuntu pc (shared with SageTV so also running my DVR and video streamer as well), cat 6 cable through a 24 port netgear router and 50ft cat 6 cable to a microRendu (not ultra or optical) powered by a SoTM battery. usb out of the microRendu went to a SoTM txusbHD (a usb to aes/ebu) equipped with the super clock option and also battery powered, to a TotalDAC d1-dual. MAGIC.........and then audio nirvana (an audio buddy said back then after hearing the system, "you're done") was corrupted by audio nervosa and i 'upgraded' stuff and destroyed the best sounding system i had ever heard. i have spent years trying to get back to that sound that i can still hear in my head and know is achievable, totally relaxed with infinite detail at the same time.
to be clearer, the extreme has given me the best bass and best vocal projection i've ever heard, period. the soundstage and detail are top notch but not YET the absolute best i've ever heard. when that is nailed, time seems to slow down as an infinite sequence of tiny details pop out of the silence and your attention to (and awareness of) each one fills each second of music with more details than were ever obvious before, but in a completely relaxed (and unobtrusive) manner. it is certainly possible (likely?) that the missing piece for me, which i hypothesize to be related to the noise floor, could be an appropriate power cord so anticipate that i'll have to go into power cord demo mode next.
i even have a couple of specific items i'm tracking on my way back to audio nirvana:
i hear a great jump factor with lead instruments (loud) but i think there could be more for sounds further down in the mix.
there could be a more relaxed, easy presentation of sound stage while maintaining infinite detail (e.g. guitar behind baez can have more delicacy and detail of fingers on strings, more modulation and breath on vocal)
starting from something great, even greater can be expected. it's like being fortunate enough to attend an astonishing concert that forever colors your views of what music can be (keith jarrett @ carnegie hall, grateful dead@watkins glen soundcheck, where you hang from every note in amazement and joy at being so lucky)
with all the upgrades and focus on networking and real-time-optimized NUCs and cables, i have made many improvements but the MAGIC was still beyond the horizon. the taiko extreme is the only thing that has brought me within sight of this holy grail and the discussion and evaluation on this forum was so consonant with my search that i made the plunge for the most expensive audio purchase i have ever made..........and i have no regrets.
i'm happy to be on the bus and truly looking forward to the continuing progress of this journey.
it's great to be in the hands of emile and team, who are clearly our leading experts in this field where EFTM.
edit: so much for not getting into detail
2nd edit: clarification in summary
Last edited:
no ethernet cable connected. simply inserted into the dac but otherwise dormant. removing the module lowered noise slightly. a touch.
i'm just an observer, reporting.
Thanks Mike I am not questioning your observation whatsoever I just wanted to make sure I understood. Very impressive. Thanks for clarifying.
A disaster??? What hyperbole. Have you spent time with a pacific? If what you say is true, PAC would be clearly noisier than other non Ethernet Lampi Dacs and that is not the case in my experience. I have a PAC and recently got a chance to compare to GG1, TRP and now even have a Baltic 3 in test. My experience tells me that the contention in this thread is invalid.
I agree. The point is mostly theoretical here. I personally haven’t noticed any difference with the module powered on or off.
Just wondering what is a disaster? I'm personally using Pacific with Ethernet port for year and a half now and there is NO noise - nada, zero, dead silent.
And also what is this second part stipulating - Lukasz is making deliberately crap things as he has no idea what he's doing?? Funny...
Not saying there is a difference at all with the Pacific or any other dac with an ethernet input, but again I infer from your answer that you think noise is "something that is audible".
Please read my post #6322 above about noise. Your system can be dead quiet, but you can still remove noise from the signal and dramatic changes will occur with respect to harmonics, especially in the high frequencies, as well as a more layered and developed 3D holographic soundstage.
Not saying you or anyone else has "noise" in their system, but just because a system is DEAD QUIET does not mean further noise can not be removed from the audio signal.
I did not initially read your post, but my eye caught an obviously malicious post stating that something is a disaster regarding the unit I use (where I'm quite sure person even did not hear nor use the discussed DAC) and stating that a person who developed the mentioned unit has no clue what he's doing.
On another note, I fully agree with you that noise can be found all around and with meticulous approach removed to achieve even better sonics.
