Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

Lampie519

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Ultrafast69

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Are all CAT5 and CAT6 cables unshielded or does one have to carefully shop for them?
Blue Jeans Cable here in Seattle build unshielded cables, bench test them and send certification along with cable - prices are well within reason.
 

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MadFloyd

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I'm currently using a Sablon Audio ethernet cable which has 'extensive shielding' so this is good to know.
 

Lampie519

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I'm currently using a Sablon Audio ethernet cable which has 'extensive shielding' so this is good to know.
Most "high end" CAT cables are extensively shielded as this gives better performance in the field used...
So it depends on the usage and the way the hardware is implemented if shielding is required or even wanted. Even the twists in the cables can make a difference. As in CAT cables these are different for each pair causing different delays on each "lane"... This needs to be compensated in a life stream....no need if it can be buffered.
 

MarkusBarkus

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...I think there may be two relevant aspects of shielding at play here. Some cables have shielding, but the shielding is not tied to the connectors. While that might also impact SQ, it would not, as I understand it, pass ground/noise between devices. Taiko guys can comment on floating shields as they impact SQ, if at all.

Per Emile's comments/diagram, I'll have to revisit copper vs. fiber. I have MM and SM fiber, shielded (Cat6a) and unshielded cable run in my network. Approximately 35' run FYI. I have been on an audio-dedicated fiber line into Extreme from the beginning. Sounds great.
 

MarkusBarkus

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...even a "floating shield" would provide some isolation from external radiation, right? In that regard, it is a shield. How/whether it impacts SQ is a more challenging investigation. In any case, the important point, as I read it, was to *not* allow a path for noise into the DAC.
 
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Lampie519

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even a "floating shield" would provide some isolation from external radiation, right?
Unfortunately not. You will have to connect at least one side to ground to have a shield of any kind.
 

Lampie519

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For those confused by the too many choices of ethernet cables
Maybe Taiko has an answer.... naturally any CAT cable can be tried just what for? It will only add to the confusion as differences can only be linked with grave difficulty as we do not know what errors to expect.
 

jelt2359

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While discussing networking (noise):


Our current recommendation is to use UNshielded CAT5 or CAT6 copper network cabling, we simply get the best results that way ourselves since the introduction of the new USB card. There is a solid explanation for it which I will share now.

There are 2 main modes of noise stemming from network usage:
1) Noise generated by network activity / processing
2) Noise transmitted over interconnects

Noise type 1) is dominant in Fiber connections due to a higher current draw of the SFP module which is an explanation for a benefit to creating a seperate subnet or vlan in this case as that reduces network activity on that subnet. As it's fiber there is no direct path for electrical noise as fiber is electrically non conductive.

Noise type 2) is dominant in copper connections, we have a very consistent network noise profile which is now rather insensitive to variations in network activity. This applies to a much lesser degree to Fiber which we have to configure differently to get to the level of Sound Quality we're after as a direct result of it's higher current draw. Now let's take a look at copper networking's sensitivity to noise type 2):

A 1Gb or higher Ethernet cable is made up of 4 pairs of signal carrying conductors, nowadays often surrounded by a shield. The signal carrying conductors (data pairs) are transformer decoupled, both common and differential mode, with their centertaps highpass filtered and referenced to ground (on both sides), usually with a corner frequency of about 1MHz. Typical schematic from Intel reference design documentation:

View attachment 79138

Solid engineering here which you should typically find in any switch, regardless of pricelevel.

Now let's discuss cable shields. Cable shields extend chassis shielding to include signal carrying conductors into the system shield, shielding them from external noise sources and/or reducing emissions. Now what happens if we apply this to our hifi-systems. To make this more visible I've created a quick MSPaint drawing:

View attachment 79140

It should be clear from this drawing that these cable shields can create a conductive path from any device on your network straight into your system. Therefor we propose to connect as follows:

View attachment 79142

This is accomplished by using an unshielded ethernet cable, which would be CAT5 or CAT6 as CAT7 and CAT8 are shielded by design.

Does this also mean that an unshielded copper connection is the recommended way the network to the connect to the Extreme, and not Fibre (which I've been using all along)?
 

octaviars

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Unfortunately not. You will have to connect at least one side to ground to have a shield of any kind.

That is not correct. @MarkusBarkus is right that a shield will work even left unconnected but it will not work in the same way as if it is connected in both ends.

A shield left unconnected on both ends will still attenuate higher-frequency signals because of the low-pass filter formed by its resistance, distributed shunt capacitance, and series inductance.

Belden CAT6 with bonded pair is a good UTP cable.

 
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Lampie519

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Does this also mean that an unshielded copper connection is the recommended way the network to the connect to the Extreme, and not Fibre (which I've been using all along)?
I think fiber is great if all requirements are met ! So i would not worry unless Taiko has a different view on this...
Unshielded UTP is not the answer (at least that is my view). Shield need to be connected to either Tx or Rx but not both to be effective and then it will be of a benefit .... again i would like to know Taiko's reaction on this idea.
 
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Lampie519

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A shield left unconnected on both ends will still attenuate higher-frequency signals because of the low-pass filter formed by its resistance, distributed shunt capacitance, and series inductance.
To where? unconnected ground / air ? Eddy currents? Please evaluate your finding. As without any technical proof i cannot be with you in this... and pointing to a product does not help here. The only "physical" connection the shield has is with the signal cables within the shield (the ones you want to protect from noise) So all the noise that hits the shield will now be distributed over all cables within that shield unless it is grounded...

Additional info from a 3rd person (same info different choice of words):

".......If your cable has a shield, it is something else. Any shielded cable must be properly grounded. That requires connectors and equipment that properly ground the shield, at least on both ends. Improperly-grounded, shielded cable will be a problem because the shield will exacerbate the problems it is meant to prevent."

Conclusion: use UTP cable, then you do not need to worry about any grounding or follow the instructions above.

Best wishes,

Frank
 
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Steve Williams

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Does this also mean that an unshielded copper connection is the recommended way the network to the connect to the Extreme, and not Fibre (which I've been using all along)?
I have always connected to the Extreme by an UTP copper connection and have no desires to try anything else
 

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MarkusBarkus

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I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to note a distinction between types of noise.

I live in a condo in a city in NE US. Very nearby is Harris RF. They make comm gear for the military. The antenna arrays on their roof are amazing. Guys walking around testing reception. Humvees. Mysterious vans. Also have a large array for TV and municipal comms to the south.

If I check my phone, I can see five or six WiFi radios from neighbors. I assume this, in conjunction with things inside my house, means I am in an EMI and RF rich landscape.

My network runs are in the ceiling, running past lighting cans/transformers, lots of Romex cable, and since it is difficult to stay away from all those things, I think fiber is a good idea. I also have a Cat6a run and a swanky, unshielded cryo-ed cable with Telegartner conns. To me, I like the fiber.

My thinking, perhaps incorrectly so, is having the ethernet "floating" shield (incorrect term) serves the same purpose as running flexible steel conduit for my dedicated 120v lines: keeping radiation out of the wires. This would be external RF and EMI in the environment.
If I wrap my phone in foil, no WiFi. And no ground dissipation, I don't think. Just blocking radiation.

I am not expert on how such radiation couples to the conductors and alien cross-talk/external radiation impacts signals, and hopefully the community was not interpreting my general comment as definitive. I am always willing to revise my thinking.

I actually only have about two feet of copper in my system...only what is required to connect fiber modem and WiFi router. Sounds great. Regards to all...
 
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