Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Reality Audio]

Good morning Jon, how is the availability of restored apogees in the UK nowadays? Unobtanium aswell?

I prefer off, but that’s not universal, I preferred on in our previous generation, perhaps the better chassis shielding has something to do with that but i’m just guessing there, it could also simply be motherboard / system specific.

Hi Emile,

Ok, similar results myself, and with some boards if you want to change CPU specific options in the BIOS it locks BCLK to 100Mhz as the spread can upset the under/over-clocking.

Apogees are pretty scarce over here, I am working on a pair of "Reality" Duetta Signatures that will be up for sale in the near future, picked these up direct from someone who contacted me. I normally get contacted by people selling their "perfect" Apogees on a certain auction site, saying they buzz a bit and how much for a rebuild!

 

[oldmustang]

Another member of the Extreme community here as I placed my order few days ago

Hearing it on my system was believing, they should place a disclaimer 'don't try this at home' on the thing! A sad moment when it went away, and the countdown to receiving my unit had to commence ...

Or something like, "Don't listen unless you are prepared to buy!"

Congratulations @simorag!

Steve Z

 

[Raker24]

Hello, could you provide some insights on the sonic signature of the Finite Elemente Pagode rack.

My system is in my office on the 2nd floor on a hardwood floor. The house is about 5 years old, but every time a garbage truck or moving truck passes by, I can feel the floor shake a bit beneath me and I’m sure my Extreme is cringing every time that happens.

Any rack I consider would have to address this issue first.

One rack that I have been eyeing for a long time is the HRS VXR rack, but I have not heard it. I like it based on looks alone and HRS’s reputation but the price……

I do like the look of the Pagode rack and any insights you can provide would be much appreciated.

I'm currently using the Finite Elemente Pagode Edition Mark II rack with the optional carbon fiber shelves (the thicker of two versions), "heavy duty" top shelf (additional 5 Cerapucs under the top shelf), and Cerabase Classic feet. I also had the separate Carbofibre isolation bases (with Cerabase classic feet) for my mono amps and three balanced isolation transformers. When I replaced the Carbofibre isolation bases with TAD "floating" platforms (made of Finnish birch plywood), I experienced a significant improvement in sound quality (at least in my system). This got me thinking that the Pagode rack is also probably not ideal in my system. I am therefore considering getting a new rack.
The problem (again, at least in my system) may be the carbon fiber shelves (they seem to be too bright, and exaggerate transients), but the Finite Elemente standard shelf is maple, and, many years ago, I had very negative experiences with them, so I won't be going back to that.
Ages ago, when I lived in Tokyo for six years (the first around), I owned an used an HRS VXR rack. Superb, very strongly recommended! Natural and organic sound. The only downsides are the price (as you mentioned) and the weight (which is why I didn't take it with me when I moved). HRS do make some more "reasonably" priced versions you could consider, as the shelves with their special feet (which would be useful in your situation) are the real secret behind their system in my opinion, not the rack itself.
Given your floor shake problems, you could also consider the suspended Artesania racks, which I used in Paris around six years ago). Christiaan Punter seems to have used them for a long time, so he could tell you more about them. Superb as well, the sound is as natural and free of artifacts as you can get. I've never had such "black" silent backgrounds in my entire experience before or since. They literally transform any unit you put on them. The downsides are, again, the cost and weight (which is why I didn't take them with me when I moved from Paris (the story of my life - the Japanese have a saying, "hikkoshi bimb?", or, loosely translated, you become poorer every time you move)). But, again, Artesania make several models, the top model is not always necessary. Artesania is on my short list for new racks as well.

 

[ctydwn]

I have never heard Artesania but have heard great things. I am a big fan of HRS and use their M3X2 shelves on a bamboo quadraspire rack. I really enjoy the sonic results and have been granted aesthetic approval. I added HRS shelves one by one as budget allowed. I like the option to someday place the 6 shelves I have now on an actual HRS rack but currently prioritizing other areas of the system.

I can vouch for when I turn a bass heavy song above 90db in my room, I cannot feel any vibration when I place my hand on top of my components. Also, HRS recently upgraded the 'feet' on their shelves and can mix and match a single shelf with different weight ratings. For example, HRS recommended two higher weighted feet on the front of my amp shelves versus the back two feet as the amp is significantly heavier due to the large transformers in front. And of course the feet can be later changed to match the weight of a new component down the road. I use Nimbus couplers under each component and their thick damping plates on top of each w positive results. Including on the Extreme.

I imagine you can't go wrong w any of the brands mentioned. Just my 2 cents. I do agree the Extreme deserves some royal treatment but of course sounds amazing on its own.

 

[simorag]

Thanks to everyone who's sharing their rack / platform / isolators choices and advices, very valuable input indeed!

Of course, I would ideally like to put the Extreme in the very best conditions to deploy its powers, but in the short term I simply do not have the budget to go with top tier mechanical interfacing gear.

As @Mike Lavigne was noting, I listen to headphones only. Furthermore, I live in a very tranquil area (noise and traffic-wise), and I have a wooden floor. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of these topics, all this should produce a rather mild overall vibration energy level compared to typical 2 channel setups, arguably dominated by low-ish frequency content, at least when it comes to ground and airborne transmission.

Vibrations from the Extreme itself and micro-vibration produced by the other electronics of my system should be (again, experts please correct me if I am wrong) the ones to address, priority in that order.

Considering my budget and space constraints, WAF threats and the input I have gathered from the replies from this amazing community, I am leaning towards one Daiza platform to start, to be put on the top shelf of my current rack (only shelf with sufficient space for the Extreme).

As an alternative I could invest all my residual budget on a more advanced rack (e.g. Quadraspire SVTL, Taoc XL, Neo Highend Quattron) and add the Daiza later.

Wooden shelves / black legs are mandatory, being orders from the house boss (you know who I am talking about).

Research continues, on this and many other subjects (who said 'cables'?) as I realize that getting the Extreme will raise the bar for all the other main and ancillary components of my system. Unless I win the lottery it will take me a few years to catch up, as my major upgrade cycle is just starting ...

Guess it will be fun!

 

[Taiko Audio]

@simorag I’d get the rack first and place the Extreme at the bottom shelf. You can always get a Daiza later on if so desired.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Hello, could you provide some insights on the sonic signature of the Finite Elemente Pagode rack.

My system is in my office on the 2nd floor on a hardwood floor. The house is about 5 years old, but every time a garbage truck or moving truck passes by, I can feel the floor shake a bit beneath me and I’m sure my Extreme is cringing every time that happens.

Any rack I consider would have to address this issue first.

One rack that I have been eyeing for a long time is the HRS VXR rack, but I have not heard it. I like it based on looks alone and HRS’s reputation but the price……

I do like the look of the Pagode rack and any insights you can provide would be much appreciated.

I can provide some insight in comparison with Finite Elemente Spider and Artesania Exoteryc racks.

Starting with the Spider, that rack has very little sound of its own but it's arguably a little on the lean and non-saturated side. You can tune it by changing the standard hard rubber feet for Ceraballs which increases the articulation and transient speed but also nudges the sound a little more toward the lean side. But the main thing is that this rack has very little coloration and very nearly every other rack that I have heard does more editorializing. The Pagode is more balanced than the Spider and it does not make the components sound lean. However, the way I see it, its wood panels do add some coloration that I perceive as nasality in the midrange. Now, this is where the opinions diverge as a close friend and fellow reviewer is adamant that the Pagode has *no* sound signature. The Pagode has a hugely interesting resonance-fighting mechanism inside but for me that does not eliminate the sonic aspects of the materials of which it is made. So, I guess this aspect depends on the system synergy and/or is a personal matter.

Like the Spider, the Artesania Exoteryc racks has very little sound of its own, less than Pagode in my opinion, but it can sound less exciting than Spider or Pagode, especially when using its lower levels. But when using its top and second upper levels and provided that a system is balanced and not inherently dull-sounding, then the Exoteryc provides as non-editorial a support as I have heard. With Exoteryc, it's as if the component is placed on the floor in terms of no added signature but without the usual slowing and blur that occurs when placing components on the floor. With the Pagode, the sound is very different when comparing on-floor placement versus on the platform, the latter resulting in a more articulate and spicy sound.

All this only describes how the racks affect the sound of your components and for me, that is the most important aspect. For you, I understand that some for of decoupling is desired, but to be honest, having always lived in full-concrete buildings, I have never had to deal with that so I have precious little experience in that field. But going from what I know, I would not imagine that the Pagode is very effective in fighting the effects of your hardwood floor. If any rack is going to have some success in that area, I would think it's the Exoteryc, especially since that rack comes with underlay-discs in various materials so that you can tune the measure of coupling to the floor. Further, I would imagine that its pendulum-like inner rack would also help fight external vibrations.

Ultimately, an affordable yet effective solution to bypass your floor vibrations might be to mount a series of platforms on the wall, free from the floor.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Look at these.
www.rogoz-audio.com
Have heard Blue58 gear incl Extreme on this rack, I know he rates the brand, and in the grand scheme of things, excellent VFM.

 

[7ryder]

It makes sense ... which now brings me to finding an isolation platform which does not cost a kidney (I looked into the TAD ZZ series pricelist and almost fainted)

Symposium racks will be able to hold your new Extreme https://www.symposiumusa.com/Racks3.html I have the Ultra Foundation rack and it works & sounds great. Peter Bizlewicz is the owner and he can design what you need - you can contact him here symposium@optonline.net

 

[spiritofmusic]

+1 for Symposium, as a decade-long owner and totally satisfied user.

 

[oldmustang]

All this only describes how the racks affect the sound of your components and for me, that is the most important aspect. For you, I understand that some for of decoupling is desired, but to be honest, having always lived in full-concrete buildings, I have never had to deal with that so I have precious little experience in that field. But going from what I know, I would not imagine that the Pagode is very effective in fighting the effects of your hardwood floor. If any rack is going to have some success in that area, I would think it's the Exoteryc, especially since that rack comes with underlay-discs in various materials so that you can tune the measure of coupling to the floor. Further, I would imagine that its pendulum-like inner rack would also help fight external vibrations.

Ultimately, an affordable yet effective solution to bypass your floor vibrations might be to mount a series of platforms on the wall, free from the floor.

My system is currently in our living room which has a beautiful dark hardwood floor. I've found the Stillpoints ESS rack without shelves, just the X-member grid system with Stillpoints SS and Ultra 5 devices under components works extremely well to minimize the vibration from equipment and most importantly, six large subwoofers exciting the floor (and everything else in the house when I turn it up!). So I'd definitely agree with Christaan that a suspended style isolation system can work really well for footfall-induced floor bounce as well as other vibration.

I've got some heavy-duty dubstep, EDM and electronica LPs that I can play at very loud levels without detecting any acoustic feedback through the turntable or muddying and thickening of the sound at volume. The only unfortunate part for this discussion is the price of the Stillpoints components, but in the past I've had very good results with DIY solutions such as suspending shelves via cables or surgical tubing.

Steve Z

 

[Steve williams]

Indeed there are many racks from which to choose. My best advice is to buy one that is based on physics addressing isolation rather than just bling or a sturdy shelf. There are several from which to choose

 

[gds7368]

the fatal mistake IMO is to think you can unhear what you heard with the Extreme. Simply put…. You can’t

BTW mine occupies the top shelf of my Critical Mass Systems rack. If you want another suggestion consider what I and countless others are using….Center Stage footers size 1.5” under the Extreme.

My understanding is that bottom shelf placement of the Extreme would be preferred … not top shelf … is that correct?

 

[Taiko Audio]

My understanding is that bottom shelf placement of the Extreme would be preferred … not top shelf … is that correct?

That would depend on the stability of the rack, the Extreme is relatively heavy at 45kg / 99lbs.

 

[gds7368]

Thanks to everyone who's sharing their rack / platform / isolators choices and advices, very valuable input indeed!

Of course, I would ideally like to put the Extreme in the very best conditions to deploy its powers, but in the short term I simply do not have the budget to go with top tier mechanical interfacing gear.

As @Mike Lavigne was noting, I listen to headphones only. Furthermore, I live in a very tranquil area (noise and traffic-wise), and I have a wooden floor. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of these topics, all this should produce a rather mild overall vibration energy level compared to typical 2 channel setups, arguably dominated by low-ish frequency content, at least when it comes to ground and airborne transmission.

Vibrations from the Extreme itself and micro-vibration produced by the other electronics of my system should be (again, experts please correct me if I am wrong) the ones to address, priority in that order.

Considering my budget and space constraints, WAF threats and the input I have gathered from the replies from this amazing community, I am leaning towards one Daiza platform to start, to be put on the top shelf of my current rack (only shelf with sufficient space for the Extreme).

As an alternative I could invest all my residual budget on a more advanced rack (e.g. Quadraspire SVTL, Taoc XL, Neo Highend Quattron) and add the Daiza later.

Wooden shelves / black legs are mandatory, being orders from the house boss (you know who I am talking about).

Research continues, on this and many other subjects (who said 'cables'?) as I realize that getting the Extreme will raise the bar for all the other main and ancillary components of my system. Unless I win the lottery it will take me a few years to catch up, as my major upgrade cycle is just starting ...

Guess it will be fun!

A friend of mine has a tube/solid state system which sound excellent, supported on a Timbernation rack
(which can be custom ordered for wood shelves/black legs)

Timbernation - Custom High End Wood Audio Furniture

Custom Wood Furniture. Our High End Audio products have been proven to isolate for better quality sound. Our products are made from solid wood and are made to last a lifetime and more.

www.timbernation.com

 

[Steve williams]

My understanding is that bottom shelf placement of the Extreme would be preferred … not top shelf … is that correct?

My Extrene is on my top shelf next to my Lampi. My two show pieces get top position. My rack however can handle the load with no problem

 

[Jeffy]

Here's my question. I use local audio files stored on my pc computer. I'm using a J Cat Net Femto card with the separate regulated Optimo 3 duo power supply. It goes to a local router and then to a Innuos reclocking switch. This goes to my MSB dac. The sound is great. What would getting a Talko Extreme do for me? I'm not interested in streaming. I need people who had this not just speculation. Would my sound be more organic. I have the stage, detail, and musicality now. The dirty computer is in another room with a different circuit.

 

[dminches]

Here's my question. I use local audio files stored on my pc computer. I'm using a J Cat Net Femto card with the separate regulated Optimo 3 duo power supply. It goes to a local router and then to a Innuos reclocking switch. This goes to my MSB dac. The sound is great. What would getting a Talko Extreme do for me? I'm not interested in streaming. I need people who had this not just speculation. Would my sound be more organic. I have the stage, detail, and musicality now. The dirty computer is in another room with a different circuit.

What do you mean by more “organic.” Is your digital playback not emotionally engaging? Do you wish it would sound more like your analog sources (tape and vinyl)?

 

[Jeffy]

My sound is great, I’m wondering what the server would do?

 

[2ndLiner]

I use Core Audio Designs racks by Arnold Marr. Beautiful to behold, they present music in a natural, tonally balanced, impactful way. My Extreme sits atop a Daiza platform. Magically engaging on a regular basis!