Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[nenon]

DAC advice needed please

I am on the fence for a DAC upgrade.
I like what I am hearing with my DAVE / M-Scaler but I would like to dramatically simplify my current spaghetti setup (M-Scaler, OPTO-DX, SRC-DX, various PSU, lots of cables ...) to a single box, and get a nice SQ bump at the same time. I do not want to mess with PGGB (I mostly stream) or Sean Jacobs DC4 (additional huge box(es)).

I have noticed that many fellow Extreme owners have Lampizator DACs, and I am actually considering a 2nd hand Pacific, but ideally I would like to avoid DACs with big tubes in order not to fall in a very expensive - and obsessive - tube rolling rabbit hole.

I play only PCM material and listen to 70% classical, 20% jazz, 10% everything else. 90% with headphones.

Some of the gear I am considering (but not limited at) includes EMM Labs DV2, Aries Cerat Helene or Kassandra, dCS Rossini, Soulution 560, NAGRA Tube DAC + PSU, Playback Designs MPD 8.

However, it will be basically impossible for me to do a serious audition of any of those in my system, unfortunately, so I would greatly appreciate the feedback coming from some direct experience about DACs below 35kUSD retail price that go along especially well with the Extreme via USB.

Thanks in advance!

P.S.: Feel free to reach via PM if this is considered off topic in this thread.

@simorag - the best advice I can give you is to wait a few months. Something new is coming up that will simplify your system a lot.

I've listened to the Lampizator Pacific and did A/B comparisons with the DAVE in Taiko's system in July 2021. I was in a similar boat like you, ready to blindly buy a used Pacific. Glad we did these tests at Taiko.
My short summary of these tests:
1. The DAVE in its stock form (the way it was designed by Rob Watts with its fast SMPS) has no place in my high-end system. I don't like it at all, and I would never use it. It's thin, bright, and honestly pretty bad sounding. The first iteration of my DIY DAC was a lot better. Now that I am on the 20th+ iteration, there is no comparison.
2. The Lampizator Pacific is a lot better than the stock DAVE. It's a pretty good DAC that you can tweak to your liking with tube rolling (something you clearly stated that you would like to avoid doing).
3. The modified DAVE vs. Lampizator Pacific is a very interesting comparison. I prefered the modified DAVE. Emile prefered the Lampizator Pacific. To me, the modified DAVE had more depth and details and the Pacific had wider soundstage and a lot more slam. It's really a matter of personal preference at this point.

A couple of comments about buying a used Pacific - I've heard from owners that there are some changes being done over the years and the more recent manufactured units might sound better. Also, make sure you get one with the JLSounds USB - this is an absolute must for Extreme users. If I was buying one, I would also make sure the coupling capacitors are Duelund and that I get the single ended model, not the balanced version.

The Aries Cerat DACs are pretty good. But do I want to spend so much money on an already outdated technology? Not really. My DIY DAC is similar (tubes section and multiple analog devices AD1865NK DAC chips). I miss being able to play native DSD for example. You see, the Mo-Fi remastering of Michael Jackson - Thriller for example was done from a DSD file (that was recorded from the master tape). I would much rather play that DSD file (if they can release it) than the vinyl record. That's not the case for albums that were all analog, but that's another topic.

The dCS Rossini with the Apex is interesting, but someone I know (and whose ears I trust) recently compared that to a modified DAVE, and prefered the DAVE, and so I don't know what to make out of this.

I've heard good things about the dCS Vivaldi with the APEX upgrade. While I haven't listened to that in my system, from data points I've collected from a pretty large network of people, I've noticed that those with solid state systems (and the big speakers from leading manufacturers like Magico and Wilson Audio) prefer dCS while those with tube amplification and high efficient speakers prefer the top Lampizator models.

I have a plan going forward and it is to wait for a release of a new product and put my money into the best analog line stage. Hope that helps. Good luck with your DAC decision.

 

[Steve williams]

I guess the question will be , when will Taiko bring some form of DAC to market. Personally it was Lampizator that got me back into the digital game. The Pacific is a fantastic DAC. Yes mine was single ended. As for tube rolling I played with a few rectifiers but stayed with my KR 242’s. I now have a Horizon and a tube set that I prefer, do much so I have 3 back up sets of each tube. My entire system is tubes, so for my ears Lampi is what lights me up with my Extreme

 

[simorag]

@simorag - the best advice I can give you is to wait a few months. Something new is coming up that will simplify your system a lot.

I've listened to the Lampizator Pacific and did A/B comparisons with the DAVE in Taiko's system in July 2021. I was in a similar boat like you, ready to blindly buy a used Pacific. Glad we did these tests at Taiko.
My short summary of these tests:
1. The DAVE in its stock form (the way it was designed by Rob Watts with its fast SMPS) has no place in my high-end system. I don't like it at all, and I would never use it. It's thin, bright, and honestly pretty bad sounding. The first iteration of my DIY DAC was a lot better. Now that I am on the 20th+ iteration, there is no comparison.
2. The Lampizator Pacific is a lot better than the stock DAVE. It's a pretty good DAC that you can tweak to your liking with tube rolling (something you clearly stated that you would like to avoid doing).
3. The modified DAVE vs. Lampizator Pacific is a very interesting comparison. I prefered the modified DAVE. Emile prefered the Lampizator Pacific. To me, the modified DAVE had more depth and details and the Pacific had wider soundstage and a lot more slam. It's really a matter of personal preference at this point.

A couple of comments about buying a used Pacific - I've heard from owners that there are some changes being done over the years and the more recent manufactured units might sound better. Also, make sure you get one with the JLSounds USB - this is an absolute must for Extreme users. If I was buying one, I would also make sure the coupling capacitors are Duelund and that I get the single ended model, not the balanced version.

The Aries Cerat DACs are pretty good. But do I want to spend so much money on an already outdated technology? Not really. My DIY DAC is similar (tubes section and multiple analog devices AD1865NK DAC chips). I miss being able to play native DSD for example. You see, the Mo-Fi remastering of Michael Jackson - Thriller for example was done from a DSD file (that was recorded from the master tape). I would much rather play that DSD file (if they can release it) than the vinyl record. That's not the case for albums that were all analog, but that's another topic.

The dCS Rossini with the Apex is interesting, but someone I know (and whose ears I trust) recently compared that to a modified DAVE, and prefered the DAVE, and so I don't know what to make out of this.

I've heard good things about the dCS Vivaldi with the APEX upgrade. While I haven't listened to that in my system, from data points I've collected from a pretty large network of people, I've noticed that those with solid state systems (and the big speakers from leading manufacturers like Magico and Wilson Audio) prefer dCS while those with tube amplification and high efficient speakers prefer the top Lampizator models.

I have a plan going forward and it is to wait for a release of a new product and put my money into the best analog line stage. Hope that helps. Good luck with your DAC decision.

Hi @nenon, first of all thanks for the heads-up about the features to check on a 2nd-hand Pacific.

As for the upcoming "new product", this is where the reply gets very intriguing ...

Being an impulsive audiophile (two human characteristics that often go toghether ) I am not sure I will be patient enough ... but one can always try to be sensible any now and then

 

[Taiko Audio]

I'm not sure I have the same impression. What I understand is that Taiko is expecting that we will use aftermarket power supplies, and that they are also potentially thinking about their own power solutions (BMS?) for this switch.

I have never got the impression that a low cost PSU is the best way to go with the Taiko Switch. If anything, Emile has been very consistent in saying that everything matters.

I think his intent was to say the BPS if purchased will power the switch. If not then he suggests a good aftermarket LPS

I have nothing to add to this

 

[Kcin]

@simorag - the best advice I can give you is to wait a few months. Something new is coming up that will simplify your system a lot.

I've listened to the Lampizator Pacific and did A/B comparisons with the DAVE in Taiko's system in July 2021. I was in a similar boat like you, ready to blindly buy a used Pacific. Glad we did these tests at Taiko.
My short summary of these tests:
1. The DAVE in its stock form (the way it was designed by Rob Watts with its fast SMPS) has no place in my high-end system. I don't like it at all, and I would never use it. It's thin, bright, and honestly pretty bad sounding. The first iteration of my DIY DAC was a lot better. Now that I am on the 20th+ iteration, there is no comparison.
2. The Lampizator Pacific is a lot better than the stock DAVE. It's a pretty good DAC that you can tweak to your liking with tube rolling (something you clearly stated that you would like to avoid doing).
3. The modified DAVE vs. Lampizator Pacific is a very interesting comparison. I prefered the modified DAVE. Emile prefered the Lampizator Pacific. To me, the modified DAVE had more depth and details and the Pacific had wider soundstage and a lot more slam. It's really a matter of personal preference at this point.

A couple of comments about buying a used Pacific - I've heard from owners that there are some changes being done over the years and the more recent manufactured units might sound better. Also, make sure you get one with the JLSounds USB - this is an absolute must for Extreme users. If I was buying one, I would also make sure the coupling capacitors are Duelund and that I get the single ended model, not the balanced version.

The Aries Cerat DACs are pretty good. But do I want to spend so much money on an already outdated technology? Not really. My DIY DAC is similar (tubes section and multiple analog devices AD1865NK DAC chips). I miss being able to play native DSD for example. You see, the Mo-Fi remastering of Michael Jackson - Thriller for example was done from a DSD file (that was recorded from the master tape). I would much rather play that DSD file (if they can release it) than the vinyl record. That's not the case for albums that were all analog, but that's another topic.

The dCS Rossini with the Apex is interesting, but someone I know (and whose ears I trust) recently compared that to a modified DAVE, and prefered the DAVE, and so I don't know what to make out of this.

I've heard good things about the dCS Vivaldi with the APEX upgrade. While I haven't listened to that in my system, from data points I've collected from a pretty large network of people, I've noticed that those with solid state systems (and the big speakers from leading manufacturers like Magico and Wilson Audio) prefer dCS while those with tube amplification and high efficient speakers prefer the top Lampizator models.

I have a plan going forward and it is to wait for a release of a new product and put my money into the best analog line stage. Hope that helps. Good luck with your DAC decision.

FWIW,

Not intending to throw this thread off - I’ve recently acquired a Dave added the outboard linear PSUs and Mscaler one-by-one——- this is an outstanding combination .

the PSUs take it to another level- the m scaler is the icing on the cake . I have not compared , obviously , to Horizon - but I have had other top tier current DACs here and the DAVE’s spatial ability , sense of depth ,slam and Articulation with no harshness is outstanding. These other DACs were serious.

I am a very heavily committed analog user (see my signature) digital is a diversion . This combo is a real alternative.

the cons- it’s a wire-full of mess- you need room…. On the used market if this meets your priorities —it’s killer.

 

[Zeotrope]

DAC advice needed please

I am on the fence for a DAC upgrade.
I like what I am hearing with my DAVE / M-Scaler but I would like to dramatically simplify my current spaghetti setup (M-Scaler, OPTO-DX, SRC-DX, various PSU, lots of cables ...) to a single box, and get a nice SQ bump at the same time. I do not want to mess with PGGB (I mostly stream) or Sean Jacobs DC4 (additional huge box(es)).

I have noticed that many fellow Extreme owners have Lampizator DACs, and I am actually considering a 2nd hand Pacific, but ideally I would like to avoid DACs with big tubes in order not to fall in a very expensive - and obsessive - tube rolling rabbit hole.

I play only PCM material and listen to 70% classical, 20% jazz, 10% everything else. 90% with headphones.

Some of the gear I am considering (but not limited at) includes EMM Labs DV2, Aries Cerat Helene or Kassandra, dCS Rossini, Soulution 560, NAGRA Tube DAC + PSU, Playback Designs MPD 8.

However, it will be basically impossible for me to do a serious audition of any of those in my system, unfortunately, so I would greatly appreciate the feedback coming from some direct experience about DACs below 35kUSD retail price that go along especially well with the Extreme via USB.

Thanks in advance!

P.S.: Feel free to reach via PM if this is considered off topic in this thread.

You should consider the Nagra Tube DAC with the Nagra supercap power supply. There are many reviews online.

 

[Zeotrope]

I'm not sure I have the same impression. What I understand is that Taiko is expecting that we will use aftermarket power supplies, and that they are also potentially thinking about their own power solutions (BMS?) for this switch.

I have never got the impression that a low cost PSU is the best way to go with the Taiko Switch. If anything, Emile has been very consistent in saying that everything matters.

Actually, just a few pages ago, Emile said the router/switch will sound great with the stock power supply.

 

[dminches]

Actually, just a few pages ago, Emile said the router/switch will sound great with the stock power supply.

But that doesn't mean it won't sound better with a "fancy" LPS...

 

[Rhapsody]

Actually, just a few pages ago, Emile said the router/switch will sound great with the stock power supply.

If you don't want to experiment with a better ps for the switch, that's fine, don't purchase one. No one is saying that you have to purchase a better ps to get great sound. WE ARE GETTING GREAT SOUND RIGHT NOW, without even the new switch or ethernet card.

With Taiko every single piece that they provide is going to give an uptick in sonics. If Taiko decides not to offer an upgraded ps because the are focusing on the real deal BPS, then it's up to each individual to decide if they would like to experiment/purchase an upgraded ps with the switch or not.

There are no absolutes with any of this as each person's $$$ vs performance threshold is different.

I personally could live with my current router/switch set up and the current XDMS with if nothing ever changed and would enjoy music for my eternity.

Btw, I have never replaced a normal ps with an upgraded ps and not seen a significant sonic uptick in performance. That's a no-brainer across the board for any device.

 

[Steve williams]

If the BPS is released in May I’m betting that most everyone who is posting here is going Full Monty with a BPS and option 1.

Taiko is so hot now with innovation as well as Emile’s initial pledge that SQ was his top priority. As a result I agree with Bob and those using XDMS that we are getting great sound right now. As a result it becomes inconceivable that great continues to become greater. Yet it does, so my bet is you go Full Monty. This is an incredible ride Emile. We all look forward to knowing that the best has yet to come. I can wait 6 months

 

[Rhapsody]

If the BPS is released in May I’m betting that most everyone who is posting here is going Full Monty with a BPS and option 1.

Taiko is so hot now with innovation as well as Emile’s initial pledge that SQ was his top priority. As a result I agree with Bob and those using XDMS that we are getting great sound right now. As a result it becomes inconceivable that great continues to become greater. Yet it does, so my bet is you go Full Monty. This is an incredible ride Emile. We all look forward to knowing that the best has yet to come. I can wait 6 months

Keep putting pennies in those piggy banks

 

[dminches]

If the BPS is released in May I’m betting that most everyone who is posting here is going Full Monty with a BPS and option 1.

Most people will want the BPS with option 1 but that could be $60k+. That’s a huge investment even if it is best in class.

 

[Rhapsody]

Most people will want the BPS with option 1 but that could be $60k+. That’s huge investment even if it is best in class.

It’s only the cost of a BMW or Mercedes SUV

 

[Steve williams]

Most people will want the BPS with option 1 but that could be $60k+. That’s huge investment even if it is best in class.

It is a lot of money. No caveat emptor here. I’m sure we’re all in agreement that the BPS and option 1is the Full Monty

 

[Rhapsody]

I would love to be a "fly on the wall" with some of the Mrs. conversations-

"Honey I want to buy a $60,000 battery power supply for my audio streamer"

 

[Zeotrope]

It’s only the cost of a BMW or Mercedes SUV

And an entry level model at that!

 

[Zeotrope]

I would love to be a "fly on the wall" with some of the Mrs. conversations-

"Honey I want to buy a $60,000 battery power supply for my audio streamer"

The key is never to tell the wife. Luckily, my wife doesn’t even ask…
But if she knew what it cost I would likely be single.

 

[Rhapsody]

Audiophiles worst fear is that if he dies his wife will sell all his equipment for the price that He told her he paid for it.

 

[ACHiPo]

Hi Emile,
You stated in a previous post that Roon + the new switch outperformed XDMS. I was wondering if that was a combination of the new switch with the new network card or with the current server configuration.
Thanks

Also, is this just with streaming? It’s hard to imagine a switch having much impact with local file sound quality.

 

[Zeotrope]

Also, is this just with streaming? It’s hard to imagine a switch having much impact with local file sound quality.

I hear you but no, the new router and switch will improve local playback quality as well. There must be noise coming in through the Ethernet connection that affects all playback. Although I guess the improvement to SQ from the switch/router will be greater if you stream.