Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[John T]

Emile would never overlook something like this. Thanks for the update

Has to be a clear protectant of some sort. I've worked with a varieties of metals in Sculpture. I have also built several copper whiskey stills. Copper will definitely oxidize/tarnish.

 

[RUIN*ish]

The ARC6 DC4 is expensive and not for everyone. No question about that. So are many things in high-end audio. It uses the same capacitors you find in the Extreme in addition to Audio Note, Vcap film capacitors, naked Z-foil resistors, Mundorf silver/gold internal wiring, Gaia footers, etc. Very expensive stuff that is only found in the best audio components. It's all hand built to order, designed and optimized for specific application, with custom transformer, etc. Some versions have nearly as much capacitance as a Gryphon Apex monoblock.

It's a significant step up from the Teddy Pardo LPS just like the Taiko Extreme is on another planet from a Roon Nucleus. There are people who have a Roon Nucleus and are surely wondering why someone (we) would ever buy a Taiko Extreme... well you never know until you try. And when you try, you realize what you've been missing. Same goes for a good LPS.

BTW, here are the internals of a ~40lbs ARC6 DC4 LPS:
View attachment 102118
The power supply on this photo completely re-transforms the (horrible sounding in my opinion) stock Chord DAVE into a world class DAC.

I've done a lot of DIY experiments with switches for a few years before becoming affiliated with Sean Jacobs. Cisco, Netgear, D-Link, Buffalo, Melco, SOTM, EtherREGEN, you name it and I've probably tried it. Two switches, three switches, four switches, five switches, six switches, I've done it all. Here is a photo of a 6 switches experiment (the 6th switch is not captured in the photo):
View attachment 102129
Replacing the clock on a $150 switch with a $1500 OCXO clock - done that.
Connecting $150 switch with a $5000 LPS - done that.
Modifying all kinds of network routers - done that.
Testing half a dozen different cable modems - done that.
Testing over a dozen different transceiver modules - done that.
The list goes on and on.

A real eye opening point for me was when I tried two almost identical DC cables for my cable modem - the exact same length (very short 1 foot cables), same wire, same geometry, and same connectors. The only difference was that one cable had a passive shielding (known as JSSG360) and the other one did not. I could clearly hear the difference that shielding of the DC/power cable for my modem made to the sound in my system. If someone told me that at the time, I would have not believed it. But I heard it with my own ears.
If the shielding on a DC cable on a cable modem makes an audible difference, you can probably imagine how much difference the power supply to a switch makes. And this is the main reason I become affiliated with Sean Jacobs in the first place. I really liked the impact of his power supplies on my digital rig (DAC's, servers, switches, routers, cable modems, etc.) and was dreaming to have access to unlimited number of high quality LPS power rails. At some point I believe I've had 23 rails powering different things in my system.
The Taiko Extreme significantly simplified that, and I am hoping that the switch, NIC, and router Emile has designed will surpass my complex network in sound quality and significantly reduce the complexity. Just like most people here, I believe in Emile's designs and ideas and can't wait to try them.

In fact, the ARC6 DC4 to some extent is related to the Taiko's battery power supply. Some of you may find the following story interesting. During COVID lockdowns, a small group of people (@romaz, @ray-dude , @austinpop , and me) started some very extensive experiments with batteries. We took a DC4 power supply apart and replaced the transformer and rectifier with batteries (but left the regulators and filtering). That did not sound very good initially. But then we started trying different batteries and discovered that some batteries sounded better than others. In the search for the perfect battery, we tried many and eventually found some hand-made batteries for drone competition with selected premium matched cells. Those sounded best. Then we added some circuitry around these batteries, and they sounded even better. Then we combined multiple batteries (to reduce the output impedance) and that sounded even better. At some point we had a huge battery pack capable of delivering 200A connected to giant copper busbars, powering the 5V (0.5A) digital rail on a Chord DAVE DAC. That sounded better than a standard DC4 LPS. But it also had some issues. I won't list them and how some of them were addressed, but one example was some audible and measurable low frequency noise. We learned a lot from these experiments. Eventually they lead to understanding some fundamental things and this is how the ARC6 upgrade was born, which sounded much better than even the best battery experiment we've done at the time. We were in touch with Emile during these experiments. We actually learned a lot from Emile as he gave us some priceless advices. Eventually Emile took some of our feedback, went on his own and brought the potential of batteries to another level, addressing every single issue we've experienced and going many extra miles ahead. That is how the Taiko BPS was born.

Hmm, I really need to learn how to write short messages... Anyhow, the bottom line is this:
What I had in mind was a special designed hybrid LPS with DC4 regulators + ARC6 modules in a smaller chassis for the switch with a target price around $3500. But as I mentioned in my previous message, I have almost given up this idea for several reasons.
The main one is that Emile will have a small BPS designed for the switch, and his recommendation is for people to wait for that unit.

I really don't want to talk about power supplies in the Taiko thread anymore, so let's get back to topic.

Ffffn brilliant...
Mn

 

[Taiko Audio]

We only have the chrome finish all set and done. We will get black in pretty soon, probably next week.

Copper needs to be finished, it’s very soft, scratches easily, but even worse, if you just briefly touch it, a black spot will start showing after a couple of weeks, also underneath lacquer. What we do in the Extreme is brushing, chemical cleaning and immediately lacquer, but this would be a very elaborate process for the Switch chassis. We have other options to get there though.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I am willing to remove air from the room and listen with bottled oxygen, so please ship a copper unit tomorrow! Don't worry about oxidation here!

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

Has to be a clear protectant of some sort. I've worked with a varieties of metals in Sculpture. I have also built several copper whiskey stills. Copper will definitely oxidize/tarnish.

For what it’s worth, there’s been decades of using clear lacquer, etc, on copper plated musical instruments (solid copper saxophone necks are a premium for their sonic quality) as well as newer coatings. Pretty sure the manufacturers were sensitive to the practice. Confidence is high.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, if you added the big BPS as a single upgrade would that be #1?

Yeah definitely.

 

[Taiko Audio]

I love the copper look as well, but copper tarnishing is a very real concern. There are protective surface treatments (i.e. lacquer) for polished copper but as far as I know, none of them really work well in perpetuity, which is why you don't see many pure copper units out there in any industry. Tarnished copper is not pretty. unless it's on custom gutters for a house. It might be that you have to perform polishing maintenance on a regular basis (every 6-12 months)? Not such a big deal, I guess.

I think Lukasz did a lacquer finish for their Duracell copper top and that seems to be holding up beautifully. Thoughts on this approach from the Taiko team?

We did a dozen or so of these mods about 6 years ago, those are all still looking identical to back then:

 

[godofwealth]

The ARC6 DC4 is expensive and not for everyone. No question about that. So are many things in high-end audio. It uses the same capacitors you find in the Extreme in addition to Audio Note, Vcap film capacitors, naked Z-foil resistors, Mundorf silver/gold internal wiring, Gaia footers, etc. Very expensive stuff that is only found in the best audio components. It's all hand built to order, designed and optimized for specific application, with custom transformer, etc. Some versions have nearly as much capacitance as a Gryphon Apex monoblock.

It's a significant step up from the Teddy Pardo LPS just like the Taiko Extreme is on another planet from a Roon Nucleus. There are people who have a Roon Nucleus and are surely wondering why someone (we) would ever buy a Taiko Extreme... well you never know until you try. And when you try, you realize what you've been missing. Same goes for a good LPS.

BTW, here are the internals of a ~40lbs ARC6 DC4 LPS:
View attachment 102118
The power supply on this photo completely re-transforms the (horrible sounding in my opinion) stock Chord DAVE into a world class DAC.

I've done a lot of DIY experiments with switches for a few years before becoming affiliated with Sean Jacobs. Cisco, Netgear, D-Link, Buffalo, Melco, SOTM, EtherREGEN, you name it and I've probably tried it. Two switches, three switches, four switches, five switches, six switches, I've done it all. Here is a photo of a 6 switches experiment (the 6th switch is not captured in the photo):
View attachment 102129
Replacing the clock on a $150 switch with a $1500 OCXO clock - done that.
Connecting $150 switch with a $5000 LPS - done that.
Modifying all kinds of network routers - done that.
Testing half a dozen different cable modems - done that.
Testing over a dozen different transceiver modules - done that.
The list goes on and on.

A real eye opening point for me was when I tried two almost identical DC cables for my cable modem - the exact same length (very short 1 foot cables), same wire, same geometry, and same connectors. The only difference was that one cable had a passive shielding (known as JSSG360) and the other one did not. I could clearly hear the difference that shielding of the DC/power cable for my modem made to the sound in my system. If someone told me that at the time, I would have not believed it. But I heard it with my own ears.
If the shielding on a DC cable on a cable modem makes an audible difference, you can probably imagine how much difference the power supply to a switch makes. And this is the main reason I become affiliated with Sean Jacobs in the first place. I really liked the impact of his power supplies on my digital rig (DAC's, servers, switches, routers, cable modems, etc.) and was dreaming to have access to unlimited number of high quality LPS power rails. At some point I believe I've had 23 rails powering different things in my system.
The Taiko Extreme significantly simplified that, and I am hoping that the switch, NIC, and router Emile has designed will surpass my complex network in sound quality and significantly reduce the complexity. Just like most people here, I believe in Emile's designs and ideas and can't wait to try them.

In fact, the ARC6 DC4 to some extent is related to the Taiko's battery power supply. Some of you may find the following story interesting. During COVID lockdowns, a small group of people (@romaz, @ray-dude , @austinpop , and me) started some very extensive experiments with batteries. We took a DC4 power supply apart and replaced the transformer and rectifier with batteries (but left the regulators and filtering). That did not sound very good initially. But then we started trying different batteries and discovered that some batteries sounded better than others. In the search for the perfect battery, we tried many and eventually found some hand-made batteries for drone competition with selected premium matched cells. Those sounded best. Then we added some circuitry around these batteries, and they sounded even better. Then we combined multiple batteries (to reduce the output impedance) and that sounded even better. At some point we had a huge battery pack capable of delivering 200A connected to giant copper busbars, powering the 5V (0.5A) digital rail on a Chord DAVE DAC. That sounded better than a standard DC4 LPS. But it also had some issues. I won't list them and how some of them were addressed, but one example was some audible and measurable low frequency noise. We learned a lot from these experiments. Eventually they lead to understanding some fundamental things and this is how the ARC6 upgrade was born, which sounded much better than even the best battery experiment we've done at the time. We were in touch with Emile during these experiments. We actually learned a lot from Emile as he gave us some priceless advices. Eventually Emile took some of our feedback, went on his own and brought the potential of batteries to another level, addressing every single issue we've experienced and going many extra miles ahead. That is how the Taiko BPS was born.

Hmm, I really need to learn how to write short messages... Anyhow, the bottom line is this:
What I had in mind was a special designed hybrid LPS with DC4 regulators + ARC6 modules in a smaller chassis for the switch with a target price around $3500. But as I mentioned in my previous message, I have almost given up this idea for several reasons.
The main one is that Emile will have a small BPS designed for the switch, and his recommendation is for people to wait for that unit.

I really don't want to talk about power supplies in the Taiko thread anymore, so let's get back to topic.

I have a Chord Blu Mk2 M-scaler connected to the Dave DAC. I have not done the PS upgrade that Sean Williams offers. BTW, by my understanding, to upgrade the Blu Mk2 and the Dave will cost around 15 grand. Not peanuts. But Naim charges the same amount for their external power supplies for their ND555 streamer DAC.

Custom HiFi Cables Ltd. - DC4 / ARC6 DC4 Power Supply

ULTIMATE Level DC Power Supply with all-new DC4 modules and CX filter sections for low current outputs

www.custom-hifi-cables.co.uk

I decided to get a Lampizator Pacific instead, and I’m glad I did. It’s a different sound profile entirely from the Blu2/Dave, and the DHT triodes give the Pacific a sense of ease and dynamics that was sorely lacking from the Dave. I still have my BLU2/Dave and fire them up every once in a while.

Chord’s sonic profile tends to exaggerate the inherent brightness in transients in all too many digital recordings. Their house sonic profile is a lean snappy one. Chord uses fast switching mode power supplies in all its products, including its amplifiers. It’s a house trait, and when you “upgrade” the Dave using an ARC6, it’s not a Chord product anymore. It’s something else entirely, and while I imagine it can change the Dave’s sound considerably, it’s not the intent of their chief designer Rob Watts, who is a strong believer in fast switching mode power supplies and definitely not a fan of Sean Williams’ linear power supplies. Rob would view the ARC6 as sluggish.

Robert Greene once reviewed a Chord amplifier in TAS, and described its sound as “vivid“. I gather the BBC liked the house sound of Chord amplifiers so much they ordered a ton of them for their broadcasting studios worldwide. It’s at the opposite end of SET sound, a fast snappy in your face kind of sound. A lean mean machine, if you will. It’s very much the intent of the chief designer Rob Watts, whose million tap filter is designed to exaggerate transients to make it sound more “analog”.

 

[Zeotrope]

I agree with Nenon statement about Extreme v Nucleus that shows the expected difference Between DC4 ARC6 and Pardo. But I understand Zetropes Point of view, at the end No one should be forced to drive bugatti chiron …..

There is no link, direct or indirect, between the supposed difference of the Extreme v Roon and the DC4 vs Pardo power supplies for a Taiko Ethernet switch. That is an extremely creative supposition!
Look - I’m not debating that the DC4 switch is great; but Taiko will be shipping the switch with a low cost PSU and it will sound great. It would not go out the door with Taiko’s name on it if it didn’t perform well out of the box. So I think a $5k PSU is overkill for a $5k switch that sounds great with a $5 power supply,
I don’t want to argue value, as it’s all relative; just wanted to point out that it seems illogical to compare these power supplies to the performance gains of going from Roon to the Extreme. Doesn’t make any sense. Not to mention I don’t think you’ve heard the Teddy Pardo power supply, let alone done a direct comparison.
I’m only saying this here because I don’t think potential owners should think that they “must” get a $5k power supply to make the switch sound its best, or the battery power solution (which will be very expensive, as I understand it; perhaps more than the Extreme costs). Personally, I don’t want to ‘throw away’ the incredible power supply built into the Extreme, as that‘s a big reason why I bought it.

 

[Zeotrope]

I love the copper look as well, but copper tarnishing is a very real concern. There are protective surface treatments (i.e. lacquer) for polished copper but as far as I know, none of them really work well in perpetuity, which is why you don't see many pure copper units out there in any industry. Tarnished copper is not pretty. unless it's on custom gutters for a house. It might be that you have to perform polishing maintenance on a regular basis (every 6-12 months)? Not such a big deal, I guess.

I think Lukasz did a lacquer finish for their Duracell copper top and that seems to be holding up beautifully. Thoughts on this approach from the Taiko team?

My Kondo Japan amp has a copper top and after more than 8 years, it still looks like new. I don’t think this is a concern when it’s treated.

 

[matthias]

Sean Williams

Sean Jacobs, btw

Matt

 

[dminches]

So I think a $5k PSU is overkill for a $5k switch that sounds great with a $5 power supply,

There is no logic to this. People spend $10k on fuses. Everyone has their tolerance for stuff like this.

 

[Backo NYC/SF]

...I am willing to remove air from the room and listen with bottled oxygen, so please ship a copper unit tomorrow! Don't worry about oxidation here!

So much for physics getting in the way of a good time.

 

[oldmustang]

...I am willing to remove air from the room and listen with bottled oxygen, so please ship a copper unit tomorrow! Don't worry about oxidation here!

You must be listening via IEMs. Once the air is out of the room your speakers and most headphones are going to be useless. But your copper and silver stuff will still look good!

Just sayin'

Steve Z

 

[MarkusBarkus]

....Steeeve! Let's not get wrapped around the axle with facts! I'm trying to get us our copper switches!

 

[godofwealth]

Sean Jacobs, btw

Matt

Right! Senior moment, obviously!

 

[Kris]

There is no link, direct or indirect, between the supposed difference of the Extreme v Roon and the DC4 vs Pardo power supplies for a Taiko Ethernet switch. That is an extremely creative supposition!
Look - I’m not debating that the DC4 switch is great; but Taiko will be shipping the switch with a low cost PSU and it will sound great. It would not go out the door with Taiko’s name on it if it didn’t perform well out of the box. So I think a $5k PSU is overkill for a $5k switch that sounds great with a $5 power supply,
I don’t want to argue value, as it’s all relative; just wanted to point out that it seems illogical to compare these power supplies to the performance gains of going from Roon to the Extreme. Doesn’t make any sense. Not to mention I don’t think you’ve heard the Teddy Pardo power supply, let alone done a direct comparison.
I’m only saying this here because I don’t think potential owners should think that they “must” get a $5k power supply to make the switch sound its best, or the battery power solution (which will be very expensive, as I understand it; perhaps more than the Extreme costs). Personally, I don’t want to ‘throw away’ the incredible power supply built into the Extreme, as that‘s a big reason why I bought it.

Thats the problem,
You are saying what you are personally thinking.
I am talking what I persnally tested many times.

Both approches are ok but they give very different results.

Power suppl is absolutely number 1 thing in audio.
Dosnt metter if it is in amplifier, DAC, Taiko extreme or a swich , modem.

 

[simorag]

DAC advice needed please

I am on the fence for a DAC upgrade.
I like what I am hearing with my DAVE / M-Scaler but I would like to dramatically simplify my current spaghetti setup (M-Scaler, OPTO-DX, SRC-DX, various PSU, lots of cables ...) to a single box, and get a nice SQ bump at the same time. I do not want to mess with PGGB (I mostly stream) or Sean Jacobs DC4 (additional huge box(es)).

I have noticed that many fellow Extreme owners have Lampizator DACs, and I am actually considering a 2nd hand Pacific, but ideally I would like to avoid DACs with big tubes in order not to fall in a very expensive - and obsessive - tube rolling rabbit hole.

I play only PCM material and listen to 70% classical, 20% jazz, 10% everything else. 90% with headphones.

Some of the gear I am considering (but not limited at) includes EMM Labs DV2, Aries Cerat Helene or Kassandra, dCS Rossini, Soulution 560, NAGRA Tube DAC + PSU, Playback Designs MPD 8.

However, it will be basically impossible for me to do a serious audition of any of those in my system, unfortunately, so I would greatly appreciate the feedback coming from some direct experience about DACs below 35kUSD retail price that go along especially well with the Extreme via USB.

Thanks in advance!

P.S.: Feel free to reach via PM if this is considered off topic in this thread.

 

[jelt2359]

Look - I’m not debating that the DC4 switch is great; but Taiko will be shipping the switch with a low cost PSU and it will sound great. It would not go out the door with Taiko’s name on it if it didn’t perform well out of the box. So I think a $5k PSU is overkill for a $5k switch that sounds great with a $5 power supply,

I’m only saying this here because I don’t think potential owners should think that they “must” get a $5k power supply to make the switch sound its best, or the battery power solution (which will be very expensive, as I understand it; perhaps more than the Extreme costs). Personally, I don’t want to ‘throw away’ the incredible power supply built into the Extreme, as that‘s a big reason why I bought it.

I'm not sure I have the same impression. What I understand is that Taiko is expecting that we will use aftermarket power supplies, and that they are also potentially thinking about their own power solutions (BMS?) for this switch.

I have never got the impression that a low cost PSU is the best way to go with the Taiko Switch. If anything, Emile has been very consistent in saying that everything matters.

 

[steve williams]

I'm not sure I have the same impression. What I understand is that Taiko is expecting that we will use aftermarket power supplies, and that they are also potentially thinking about their own power solutions (BMS?) for this switch.

I have never got the impression that a low cost PSU is the best way to go with the Taiko Switch. If anything, Emile has been very consistent in saying that everything matters.

I think his intent was to say the BPS if purchased will power the switch. If not then he suggests a good aftermarket LPS