Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[QSA-LANEDRI]

When I used the cat6 direct to router as reference, I found that I couldn't stop there. I had to change the rest of my chain including power cords, grounding, tweaks, etc to rebalance the color/detail/tonality ratio to my liking. Once that was done I found to my surprise many of my power cords had been switched to cheaper (less coloured) alternatives, and many (eg. many NCFs) tweaks had to be removed. I now think many of these tweaks (not just network) were inserted because I needed to cover up harshness and is no longer necessary. Compared to before with all my tweaks, the sound is now more balanced, with more inner detail, faster and more nimble, and yet has less leading edged.

This is my new baseline. Not changing one item (network) and leaving everything else untouched. Did anyone go through the same journey?

I had a similar experience when I took out the Ansuz Sparkz harmonizer from the power conditioner (in addition to the M12 Gold switch). I still need to try on the cables.

Anas

 

[Nils]

Power of Vertical integration

After the stupendously great software update that lead to a system upgrade, I too felt it was time to challenge old truths about what actually contributes to SQ.


The Green Path was carefully evaluated using A/B/A with Extreme in path (at my dealer) - these changes were indeed clear upgrades wrt SQ.

But - the stupendous software update changed this...

Now I have done a long A/B/A between Green and Blue Paths - the differences are almost completely gone - whereas before I could play 10s into any track and be confident about the change. Vertical integration rules!

As my brain is used to Green Path - I may have the the world's most expensive equalizer (for sure - we are all insane spending this amount of money on these things). My craziness will increase Wednesday when I get my long awaited Omega cables.

@Taiko Audio you will cause a flood of 2nd hand audiophile switches and Ethernet-cables on the market once your Network & Switch card becomes available.

Until then - I will continue feeding the Green devil

 

[wil]

The OS update seems to expose the “qualities” of the ethernet equipment upstream of the Extreme. After removing them, I tried adding back the fiber and switches one at a time to hear what each was doing. The fiber made the largest negative impact. Adding a midrange harshness and loosing dynamic range. The switches didn’t do as much damage to the sound but they definitely color it and again reduce dynamics.

Here with the OS update plugging cat6 directly from the router to the Extreme gives the most dynamic and uncolored sound. However even though it was more hi-fi sounding, it was still not right. It left me not wanting to listen to my system as much.

I started out with the recommended settings for my DAC. Driver 4 with Roon set to 32bit. I lost connection to the music due to an unnatural edge in the midrange as well as the transients being smeared. Much like what I hear in pro-audio when the dither is not set correctly or when noise shaping dither is used.

It wasn’t until I tried the four different drivers that things started to make sense. Here with driver 1 and Roon set to 24bit, maximum buffer size set to yes, I get the best sound so far. It sounds natural again but now I have much better micro and macro dynamics, better separation between instruments and larger imaging then I did before the update.

Point being the upstream equipment, drivers and Roon settings make a huge difference in how the OS update sounds. If you aren’t thrilled with the update try the different drivers and Roon 24 vs 32 bit as well as buffer size.

Interesting and a little confounding.

Speaking for myself, I'm happy with what I'm hearing with usb driver #2 for Nagra DAC, but haven't gone back to listen to other drivers or TAS for that matter. I'm tempted to see if I'm missing anything with the other drivers. I will definitely try some Blue Jeans utp copper instead of the fiber and try with and without Melco switch.

 

[Steve Williams]

Power of Vertical integration

After the stupendously great software update that lead to a system upgrade, I too felt it was time to challenge old truths about what actually contributes to SQ.

View attachment 89556
The Green Path was carefully evaluated using A/B/A with Extreme in path (at my dealer) - these changes were indeed clear upgrades wrt SQ.

But - the stupendous software update changed this...

Now I have done a long A/B/A between Green and Blue Paths - the differences are almost completely gone - whereas before I could play 10s into any track and be confident about the change. Vertical integration rules!

As my brain is used to Green Path - I may have the the world's most expensive equalizer (for sure - we are all insane spending this amount of money on these things). My craziness will increase Wednesday when I get my long awaited Omega cables.

@Taiko Audio you will cause a flood of 2nd hand audiophile switches and Ethernet-cables on the market once your Network & Switch card becomes available.

Until then - I will continue feeding the Green devil

I use Orbi as well but rather than taking an Ethernet cable from my router on the first floor to my satellite with Ethernet in my sound room I transmit wireless from router to satellite and then use a 7 meter Triode Wire Labs from my satellite to the Extreme. In fact I have done this since day one and love what I’m hearing especially after the lateral update

 

[ashandger]

I use Orbi as well but rather than taking an Ethernet cable from my router on the first floor to my satellite with Ethernet in my sound room I transmit wireless from router to satellite and then use a 7 meter Triode Wire Labs from my satellite to the Extreme. In fact I have done this since day one and love what I’m hearing especially after the lateral update

Hello Steve, many thanks for your sharing your network configuration and experience. May I ask if your primary reason for using the 7m Triode Wire Labs cable is to keep the Orbi satellite away from your Extreme? I may well need to adopt your setup so your feedback would be very helpful. Many thanks

 

[Steve Williams]

Short answer is yes, however where I have my satellite router now is in the most unorthodox of spots . I do use an LPS for this satellite/router however it is in the front of my room lying between the wall in front and my loom of Masterbuilt Ultra cables which lie immediately behind but in front of my huge Lamm amps and power supplies. Don't ask me why but this was my only sane option and at the time I could have created another network in my sound room but when I spoke to Emile 2 1/2 years ago I told him what my plan was. I have followed his instructions from day one and for a guy who was all vinyl and tape, streaming to me became interesting only after the Extreme came to market. My mantra was 'KISS"....keep it simple stupid.

I had no desire to try optical fibre and the thought of a switch never interested me until our leader and "commander-in-chief" told his faithful followers that a switch of sorts was coming to market in the next few months. "when Emile talks, we should pay heed and listen"

 

[ashandger]

Short answer is yes, however where I have my satellite router now is in the most unorthodox of spots . I do use an LPS for this satellite/router however it is in the front of my room lying between the wall in front and my loom of Masterbuilt Ultra cables which lie immediately behind but in front of my huge Lamm amps and power supplies. Don't ask me why but this was my only sane option and at the time I could have created another network in my sound room but when I spoke to Emile 2 1/2 years ago I told him what my plan was. I have followed his instructions from day one and for a guy who was all vinyl and tape, streaming to me became interesting only after the Extreme came to market. My mantra was 'KISS"....keep it simple stupid.

I had no desire to try optical fibre and the thought of a switch never interested me until our leader and "commander-in-chief" told his faithful followers that a switch of sorts was coming to market in the next few months. "when Emile talks, we should pay heed and listen"

Hello Steve, many thanks for taking the time to provide such detailed feedback....much appreciated.
Cheers.

 

[wil]

yes...establish a new simplified basis (per Emile)
Correct-ATT ONT -> Edgerouter -> cat 5 or 6 ethernet cable -> Taiko...

To anyone using an ATT combined modem/router that has been hacked to bypass the internal router and go straight ONT to a 3rd party router (like Edge Router): have you found this to be stable and reliable?

I'm considering this, but two different network specialists have advised me that it would be a maintenance nightmare for someone not literate in fiddling with it (like me).

I've read that the ATT modem/router "Gateway" can accommodate a 3rd party router with IP Passthrough enabled. I don't know if this would be functionally equivalent to the modem/router hack?
I also read that the IP Passthrough would severely slow down use for Gaming.
Would this matter for Audio? How much internet speed do we need for Audio? My ATT plan is rated at 1 gig (at the Gateway) but real world at my computer (wired ethernet) is only 30 MBS download and 70 MBS Upload.

And finally, will the Taiko Router/Switch/Network card Emile is cooking up function with a combined ISP modem/router like the ATT? Or will a hack or IP Passthrough be required?

Lot of questions! Thanks

 

[kswanson27]

To anyone using an ATT combined modem/router that has been hacked to bypass the internal router and go straight ONT to a 3rd party router (like Edge Router): have you found this to be stable and reliable?

I'm considering this, but two different network specialists have advised me that it would be a maintenance nightmare for someone not literate in fiddling with it (like me).

I've read that the ATT modem/router "Gateway" can accommodate a 3rd party router with IP Passthrough enabled. I don't know if this would be functionally equivalent to the modem/router hack?
I also read that the IP Passthrough would severely slow down use for Gaming.
Would this matter for Audio? How much internet speed do we need for Audio? My ATT plan is rated at 1 gig (at the Gateway) but real world at my computer (wired ethernet) is only 30 MBS download and 70 MBS Upload.

And finally, will the Taiko Router/Switch/Network card Emile is cooking up function with a combined ISP modem/router like the ATT? Or will a hack or IP Passthrough be required?

Lot of questions! Thanks

Not to detour from the thrust of your post but 30 MBS down and 70 MBS up?? Doesn't sound right for a 1 gig plan.

 

[jelt2359]

To anyone using an ATT combined modem/router that has been hacked to bypass the internal router and go straight ONT to a 3rd party router (like Edge Router): have you found this to be stable and reliable?

I'm considering this, but two different network specialists have advised me that it would be a maintenance nightmare for someone not literate in fiddling with it (like me).

I've read that the ATT modem/router "Gateway" can accommodate a 3rd party router with IP Passthrough enabled. I don't know if this would be functionally equivalent to the modem/router hack?
I also read that the IP Passthrough would severely slow down use for Gaming.
Would this matter for Audio? How much internet speed do we need for Audio? My ATT plan is rated at 1 gig (at the Gateway) but real world at my computer (wired ethernet) is only 30 MBS download and 70 MBS Upload.

And finally, will the Taiko Router/Switch/Network card Emile is cooking up function with a combined ISP modem/router like the ATT? Or will a hack or IP Passthrough be required?

Lot of questions! Thanks

A simpler method would be just to connect an ethernet cable from your ATT to the edgerouter internet in, and then connect everything (including any wireless/mesh that you want) only to the edgerouter- send nothing to your ATT. Turn off your ATT wifi, or if you can't, just don't connect to it.

Accomplishes the same thing without 'hacking'

 

[wil]

A simpler method would be just to connect an ethernet cable from your ATT to the edgerouter internet in, and then connect everything (including any wireless/mesh that you want) only to the edgerouter- send nothing to your ATT. Turn off your ATT wifi, or if you can't, just don't connect to it.

Accomplishes the same thing without 'hacking'

That would be nice, but the ATT security certifications have to be installed on the EdgeRouter along with the WPA supplicant and some boot files. I know it can be done by someone who know's what they're doing, but I'm spooked by the potential maintenance hassles I've been warned of.

 

[jelt2359]

That would be nice, but the ATT security certifications have to be installed on the EdgeRouter along with the WPA supplicant and some boot files. I know it can be done by someone who know's what they're doing, but I'm spooked by the potential maintenance hassles I've been warned of.

Alright best to let someone with ATT chime in. Did some quick reading tho, that’s only needed if you’re going to replace the ATT router or modem. I’m suggesting you set up a subnet aka you use two routers at the same time.

While that’s not necessarily the easiest thing either it’s probably easier than what you’re suggesting…

 

[alwayslearning]

After some fairly casual listening and comparisons, I am unable to detect very significant differences between Roon and TAS. I would venture to say that Roon is certainly not worse than TAS but maybe Emile's last-minute tweaks to the OS brought TAS a little closer to Roon than it had been just two weeks ago. Not saying there aren't some differences, just not all that musically significant to my ears. This is after the OS update and after implementing Taiko's USB4 profile in a Chord DAVE/SRC-DX system. So I think I'll be sticking with Roon until XDMS comes out. I have to admit I am thoroughly enjoying all of Roon's bells and whistles once again after a long hiatus.

On an unrelated note, I'm wondering if any of you might be encountering the following issue. After receiving Taiko's OS update, I have been unable to access Roon's advanced settings in the Audio Device setup. This is where you can choose maximum bit rate and sample rate. When I click on "Show advanced," it just toggles to "Hide advanced" without providing me access to the advanced settings. I can't be sure that the new OS update has anything to do with my inability to access these settings.

Since Emile has advised us to use certain bit rate settings in Roon with certain Taiko USB profiles, it seems important to be able to access these settings. I will admit that I am very, very happy with the sound I am getting now and I did have my bit rate set to 32 bits the last time I set it (and Roon shows I am able to play 32 bit files), so this may be a non-issue right now. But I'm concerned that I might need to access the advanced audio settings menu in the future.

I haven't found anyone yet who has the same problem. Has anyone else experienced this or does anyone have any suggestions?

 

[kswanson27]

After some fairly casual listening and comparisons, I am unable to detect very significant differences between Roon and TAS. I would venture to say that Roon is certainly not worse than TAS but maybe Emile's last-minute tweaks to the OS brought TAS a little closer to Roon than it had been just two weeks ago. Not saying there aren't some differences, just not all that musically significant to my ears. This is after the OS update and after implementing Taiko's USB4 profile in a Chord DAVE/SRC-DX system. So I think I'll be sticking with Roon until XDMS comes out. I have to admit I am thoroughly enjoying all of Roon's bells and whistles once again after a long hiatus.

On an unrelated note, I'm wondering if any of you might be encountering the following issue. After receiving Taiko's OS update, I have been unable to access Roon's advanced settings in the Audio Device setup. This is where you can choose maximum bit rate and sample rate. When I click on "Show advanced," it just toggles to "Hide advanced" without providing me access to the advanced settings. I can't be sure that the new OS update has anything to do with my inability to access these settings.

Since Emile has advised us to use certain bit rate settings in Roon with certain Taiko USB profiles, it seems important to be able to access these settings. I will admit that I am very, very happy with the sound I am getting now and I did have my bit rate set to 32 bits the last time I set it (and Roon shows I am able to play 32 bit files), so this may be a non-issue right now. But I'm concerned that I might need to access the advanced audio settings menu in the future.

I haven't found anyone yet who has the same problem. Has anyone else experienced this or does anyone have any suggestions?

I was able to access advanced settings last week just after the update but now I'm having the same problem you are.

 

[alwayslearning]

I was able to access advanced settings last week just after the update but now I'm having the same problem you are.

Interesting. It has been suggested to me that perhaps Roon is not detecting the potential for these advanced settings in the particular audio device, which in my case is the new Taiko USB driver. But I assume many others here are using the new Taiko USB drivers and are not having problems accessing the advanced settings in Roon.

 

[nonesup]

After clicking on advanced, you have to scroll down and the advanced options appear.

 

[Levitator]

No problem accessing Roon advanced settings for me since the OS update - per nonesup’s post above, just scroll down within that screen once selected otherwise you only see “hide advanced”

 

[alwayslearning]

No problem accessing Roon advanced settings for me since the OS update - per nonesup’s post above, just scroll down within that screen once selected otherwise you only see “hide advanced”

Ok, sorry folks, I’m an idiot. I got it to work. Once you click on “Show advanced” and you get “Hide advanced“, you simply need to scroll down. DOH!! Thanks @nonesup and @Levitator.

 

[oldmustang]

Ok, sorry folks, I’m an idiot. I got it to work. Once you click on “Show advanced” and you get “Hide advanced“, you simply need to scroll down. DOH!! Thanks @nonesup and @Levitator.

Been there, done that. You're not alone.

Steve Z

 

[oldmustang]

Last night I experimented with putting a simple, inexpensive unmanaged switch between my modem/router and Extreme, following up on Emile's suggestion that the ISP-provided device might be compromised by my teleco's desire to minimize expense.

I actually tried two switches -- the common Netgear GS105 and a very inexpensive D-link DGS-1005. No fancy LPS power supplies, I just ran them with the provided wall-wart. In the case of the D-link the power inlet is a micro-USB port, so I'd have to find a male micro-USB - female DC barrel connector adapter. For the more conventional Netgear I would have had to free up a 12 VDC supply. I figured for a quick test if I could hear an improvement with the OEM SMPS wall-warts then it might be worth the effort to pursue power supplies.

With either switch I heard a small but easily identifiable uptick in sound quality with the switch inserted. So, as Emile suggested, my cheap-ass™® modem/router was holding back the sound quality a little.

So this brings us around full circle to the notion that a switch (which in this case is only switching one device) can improve sound quality.

Gee, that sounds familiar. Just a short step from the slippery slope of "if a cheap switch sounds better then an "audiophile" switch must sound even better" and "if a cheap switch with SMPS sounds better, then an expensive linear power supply must sound even better", etc etc.

I think I'll wait for Taiko's switch and other networking devices before I start investing in network tweaks (again). In the meantime, I'm content with my cheap-ass™® switch(es). (And no, I haven't tried putting the two switches in series between modem/router and Extreme!).

Steve Z