Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[oldmustang]

Hi Steve Z, Ken here, thanks for reply



I currently have the Grimm MU1 and it does fine as Roon Core. while I have had the XACT S1 Streamer in on demo, it was upstairs in system 2 as Roon core. S1 runs only JPLAY and sounds amazing. But can Roon sound this good? that is what I would like.
Regardless, I do not understand Mirror Core. I presume this could be the Grimm MU1?
So I guess the point here is that if Extreme is running XDMS downstairs I would have no roon endpoints elsewhere, correct?



I always disable roon endpoints when not in use or for critical listening. Roon sounds best when only one endpoint running. Multiple endpoints are more a lifestyle or party thing, maybe a soak in the tub, not for critical listening in my reference system or even my #2 system.

I still don't know for sure where the router does or does not fit in my system. My M12 switch is upstairs in office, away from all audio, sending audio to my two wired systems. This M12 switch is quite good, is powered with SJ AR6, and I need a switch there. I am thinking Taiko switch downstairs in front of Extreme (with DAC ). I have an JCAT Optimo 3 I could power the switch, or BPS, etc.

Thanks, Ken

Hi Ken,

Mirror Core is not a thing, it's just a term I used trying to describe a second Roon core installed on another core-capable platform located "outside" the audio-only sub-LAN established by a Taiko or other router. My use of the word mirror was meant to imply that you have a copy of the music library on the Extreme available to this second Roon core, so that you have all your music, playlists, radio stations and Qobuz/Tidal music available to this second core as well. The library could be on a NAS, external USB drive or internal storage in the second Roon core platform. Periodically of course you'd have to back up one library to the other to ensure the two libraries remain identical or close to it. I treat this as an opportunity to keep one more additional copy of my music library current as a back up in case something happens to my Extreme.

The idea is that as long as you only have one Roon core active at a time you don't need a second Roon license. Further, this second Roon core platform, outside the primary audio-only sub-LAN then allows all your Roon-endpoints access to your music library without having to let them have access to the audio-only sub-LAN set up for your primary audio system.

You are correct that if your Extreme is running XDMS and the only place you have a Roon core installed is on the Extreme, then you would have no way of reaching Roon endpoint devices located elsewhere on your home LAN. While technically you can run xdmsserver/xdmsplayer and Roon simultaneously on the Extreme, doing so is not recommended for best sound quality from XDMS or Roon.

Now, as to your question about Roon sounding as good as your Grimm or XACT S1, I'm afraid I can't answer that question since I don't have any experience with either of those two devices and it's literally been years since I tried and gave up on JPlay.

As you suggest, Taiko Audio recommends using their Taiko router between the rest of your home LAN and their Extreme server, ideally in conjunction with the Taiko switch and Taiko Network Interface Card installed in the Extreme.

I hope this clarifies my somewhat incomplete post.

Steve Z

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Hi Ken,

Mirror Core is not a thing, it's just a term I used trying to describe a second Roon core installed on another core-capable platform located "outside" the audio-only sub-LAN established by a Taiko or other router. My use of the word mirror was meant to imply that you have a copy of the music library on the Extreme available to this second Roon core, so that you have all your music, playlists, radio stations and Qobuz/Tidal music available to this second core as well. The library could be on a NAS, external USB drive or internal storage in the second Roon core platform. Periodically of course you'd have to back up one library to the other to ensure the two libraries remain identical or close to it. I treat this as an opportunity to keep one more additional copy of my music library current as a back up in case something happens to my Extreme.

The idea is that as long as you only have one Roon core active at a time you don't need a second Roon license. Further, this second Roon core platform, outside the primary audio-only sub-LAN then allows all your Roon-endpoints access to your music library without having to let them have access to the audio-only sub-LAN set up for your primary audio system.

You are correct that if your Extreme is running XDMS and the only place you have a Roon core installed is on the Extreme, then you would have no way of reaching Roon endpoint devices located elsewhere on your home LAN. While technically you can run xdmsserver/xdmsplayer and Roon simultaneously on the Extreme, doing so is not recommended for best sound quality from XDMS or Roon.

Now, as to your question about Roon sounding as good as your Grimm or XACT S1, I'm afraid I can't answer that question since I don't have any experience with either of those two devices and it's literally been years since I tried and gave up on JPlay.

As you suggest, Taiko Audio recommends using their Taiko router between the rest of your home LAN and their Extreme server, ideally in conjunction with the Taiko switch and Taiko Network Interface Card installed in the Extreme.

I hope this clarifies my somewhat incomplete post.

Steve Z

Adding to Steve Z's excellent suggestion of using a secondary "mirrored" Roon Core (which is something I also do only that the quality or character of a Roon Core (or any server) shines through on the streaming endpoint. This is as true for the Grimm MU1 as the Roon Core on the Extreme Music Server. The Grimm and the Extreme have almost polar opposite sonic presentations, and this will, to some extent, also be audible on streaming endpoints. The question is if one requires the ultimate in SQ for secondary systems.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Are you saying that the DC filters do not have much of an effect on local files? That's what I am commenting on. It seems like people are saying they do.

To my ears, there is most definitely (also) an impact on the SQ with local audio files and I would say it is large enough to justify getting the Router, Switch, and DCD.

 

[fast.freight]

Adding to Steve Z's excellent suggestion of using a secondary "mirrored" Roon Core (which is something I also do only that the quality or character of a Roon Core (or any server) shines through on the streaming endpoint. This is as true for the Grimm MU1 as the Roon Core on the Extreme Music Server. The Grimm and the Extreme have almost polar opposite sonic presentations, and this will, to some extent, also be audible on streaming endpoints. The question is if one requires the ultimate in SQ for secondary systems.

Thanks Christiaan, Can you please somewhat describe these differences in Roon Cores' sonic presentations between the MU1 and the Extreme?
It seems you are saying my very good second system would benefit from Core being run downstairs on the Extreme vs (for example) Roon core running upstairs on my Grimm. I suppose it is always possible to leave Extreme in Roon mode when leaving that system? Then I have the option when sitting down to listen to use roon or XDMS, as long a no one upstairs (it would only be me) is trying to run roon on the other endpoints, correct? This scenario seems easy with my current set up, aka no Taiko Router subnet. I am not sure what I am asking works with the second router, as I would have isolated the Extreme's roon core from the rest of the house??? Thanks so much! Ken

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Thanks Christiaan, Can you please somewhat describe these differences in Roon Cores' sonic presentations between the MU1 and the Extreme?
It seems you are saying my very good second system would benefit from Core being run downstairs on the Extreme vs (for example) Roon core running upstairs on my Grimm. I suppose it is always possible to leave Extreme in Roon mode when leaving that system? Then I have the option when sitting down to listen to use roon or XDMS, as long a no one upstairs (it would only be me) is trying to run roon on the other endpoints, correct? This scenario seems easy with my current set up, aka no Taiko Router subnet. I am not sure what I am asking works with the second router, as I would have isolated the Extreme's roon core from the rest of the house??? Thanks so much! Ken

In a nutshell: The Grimm MU1 is tight, articulate, and fast, but also lean, staccato, a little coarse, and tonally relatively gray. The Taiko Audio Extreme is full-bodied, richly textured, deeply saturated, and, depending on Roon or XDMS, smoother and more organic as well as tonally fuller / more robust and impactful. These differences are observed most strongly when using the server along with its player component, but they remain audible (albeit to a lesser degree) when used as a server into a different streaming endpoint. In that case, you usually end up with a mix of both devices' virtues or vices.

I am not suggesting you run all your systems off the Taiko core, but rather the opposite, to keep things simple. I would reserve the Taiko Extreme for your main system while keeping it separate from the rest as much as possible. Then, I would (and do) use a secondary server running Roon core for secondary endpoints.

You can leave the Extreme server in Roon mode but you will have to log out of Roon from your control point and log back into the other, which is some hassle but usually rather quick. You cannot have two cores active at the same time unless you have double licenses.

Indeed, if you are logged into the Roon core on the Extreme, and someone is trying to log into the Roon core on the MU1, then they would have to log you out before they can log in. Roon (the cloud service) will know where you are logged in, even if the Taiko Extreme's Roon Core is on a different subnet.

 

[Kingsrule]

To my ears, there is most definitely (also) an impact on the SQ with local audio files and I would say it is large enough to justify getting the Router, Switch, and DCD.

Agreed
The effect of the router and DCD in my system (local files) is very significant...and I'm only a few days into break-in and on default outputs.

 

[dminches]

Port Forwarding with Taiko Router

I started working on this today since we don't yet have instructions from Taiko. I haven't gotten it figured out but I thought I would share what I have done in case someone can get me over the hump.

First, I started with the Taiko router to set up a rule to get to the Extreme. My Extreme's IP address is 192.168.100.69.

Here's what I entered on the network/routing screen:



I am a little confused as to what the target should be since I know it should be 192.168.100.69 but the syntax to open a port is not familiar to me. I think the /17 may mean port 17 but I really don't know. It won't allow you to enter a number greater than 99. It is possible that this should be /24 since that's what shows up on the Status/Routing page. So, this could be the issue with my setup.

My next step is to find the LAN address of the Taiko router on my main router. This is 192.168.1.180.

So, I set up a port forwarding rule on my main router to forward all "calls" to port 17 to 192.168.1.180.

Honestly, I am not 100% sure how to even check if this is working but any attempts to ping the Extreme from my main router came up empty.

Also, if I run Fing on my Taiko network I don't see port 17 being open so that may be another indication of it not being set up correctly.

Maybe someone can provide some help here.

 

[cat6man]

Hi Dave

I also

Port Forwarding with Taiko Router

I started working on this today since we don't yet have instructions from Taiko. I haven't gotten it figured out but I thought I would share what I have done in case someone can get me over the hump.

First, I started with the Taiko router to set up a rule to get to the Extreme. My Extreme's IP address is 192.168.100.69.

Here's what I entered on the network/routing screen:

View attachment 118417

I am a little confused as to what the target should be since I know it should be 192.168.100.69 but the syntax to open a port is not familiar to me. I think the /17 may mean port 17 but I really don't know. It won't allow you to enter a number greater than 99. It is possible that this should be /24 since that's what shows up on the Status/Routing page. So, this could be the issue with my setup.

My next step is to find the LAN address of the Taiko router on my main router. This is 192.168.1.180.

So, I set up a port forwarding rule on my main router to forward all "calls" to port 17 to 192.168.1.180.

Honestly, I am not 100% sure how to even check if this is working but any attempts to ping the Extreme from my main router came up empty.

Also, if I run Fing on my Taiko network I don't see port 17 being open so that may be another indication of it not being set up correctly.

Maybe someone can provide some help here.

Hi Dave

I also gave this a try, using different settings which I will not describe since it didn't work either.

After a bit of googling, I may(?) have identified the problem. From what I think I learned, the reason it fails is that it requires double forwarding. That is, the home router on 192.168.1.1 needs to port forward to the taiko router, hence you can't ping it or see it from the home network. Which ports need to be forwarded is also an unknown at my end.

While this may be doable (not sure I want to pursue this) it is certainly not plug and play even if it works.

As a non-expert here, I am guessing that the solution for plug and play would need to put the Taiko router on the same subnet as the home network, with settings and port forwarding to isolate the music playing traffic. No idea how to do that here.

I personally would be fine with a double forward solution and two separate subnets, which is probably also more secure, recognizing that this strategy does not scale well for emile et al.

I think I'm done messing with this for now and await guidance from those much more knowledgeable in networking theory and practice.

When someone knows all the ports that need to be forwarded from the home router to taiko router, I'll get back to messing around. I'm sure at least the vnc port 5900 has to be added.

 

[dminches]

Hi Dave

I also

Hi Dave

I also gave this a try, using different settings which I will not describe since it didn't work either.

After a bit of googling, I may(?) have identified the problem. From what I think I learned, the reason it fails is that it requires double forwarding. That is, the home router on 192.168.1.1 needs to port forward to the taiko router, hence you can't ping it or see it from the home network. Which ports need to be forwarded is also an unknown at my end.

While this may be doable (not sure I want to pursue this) it is certainly not plug and play even if it works.

As a non-expert here, I am guessing that the solution for plug and play would need to put the Taiko router on the same subnet as the home network, with settings and port forwarding to isolate the music playing traffic. No idea how to do that here.

I personally would be fine with a double forward solution and two separate subnets, which is probably also more secure, recognizing that this strategy does not scale well for emile et al.

I think I'm done messing with this for now and await guidance from those much more knowledgeable in networking theory and practice.

When someone knows all the ports that need to be forwarded from the home router to taiko router, I'll get back to messing around. I'm sure at least the vnc port 5900 has to be added.

Hi Marty.

With 2 routers you have to set up 2 sets of forwarding rules but I am trying to do that. If you look at my example above, I am trying to forward anything using port 17 to 192.168.1.180 which is the Taiko router's IP address on the main router. I am then trying to forward anything using port 17 on the Taiko router to my Extreme.

How did you assign a port for forwarding on the Taiko router?

 

[cat6man]

another thought.............should we forward to the lan or wan address; of the taiko router?

update: moving discussion to discord

 

[dminches]

Lan

 

[cmarin]

I got my router and distributor today.
Took me an hour or so but got it working with XDMS.

wow…more of everything that should be there.

and less of everything that shouldn’t be there.

Amazing.

BUT then lost the connection. Have been trying all the different options for reconnecting and nothing works.

Now I can see the Taiko Network but can’t see the Extreme.

I even tried going straight to switch without router and still can’t see the extreme.

maybe something went wrong with the NIC card from pulling the DAC cable too often?

AMAZINGLY OUTSTANDING CUSTOMER SERVICE & AMAZINGLY OUTSTANDING SOUND
Two weeks ago, I received my router and distributor to go with my previously installed Taiko switch and NIC. Managed to connect them. Got music. But lost the connection to the extreme shortly thereafter and was unable to regain it.

Over the next few days, Ted Leer @Taiko Audio support worked diligently to help debug the problem and narrowed the culprit to my faulty NIC. He express shipped a new NIC which arrived a week ago Thursday. Was able to connect the NIC and was up and running within an hour.

It's been a week now running XDMS and the router and distributor (still connected to the default outputs of the distributor) are pretty well burned in and ....Oh my....an utter lack of artifacts to distract from the emotional engagement of the music. Unprecedented sound quality for me in my room!

Thank you and Bravo Taiko support and Audio development team. Outstanding in ever way!

 

[Steve Williams]

The more I read posts of this nature, the more I feel that the DCD and filters is a huge option to have in the Taiko scheme of things...so much so that those of us who are strongly considering BPS are beginning to realize that with BPS, the DCD and filters go away. I have to admit that as I listen daily the DCD to me imparts all of the emotion and feeling that continues to draw me in. It is beginning to feel like an essential part of the Taiko sound. With NSM pending and BPS soon thereafter , these seem to be (according to Emile), the 2 biggest upticks in SQ......so for me, I remain interested in the BPS, but when I think of parting with the DCD to achieve this, has me now wanting to hear an a-b-a using the router, switch , dcd vs the router, switch and BPS . These seem to me to be the two ultimate ways to listen

 

[VPN]

The more I read posts of this nature, the more I feel that the DCD and filters is a huge option to have in the Taiko scheme of things...so much so that those of us who are strongly considering BPS are beginning to realize that with BPS, the DCD and filters go away. I have to admit that as I listen daily the DCD to me imparts all of the emotion and feeling that continues to draw me in. It is beginning to feel like an essential part of the Taiko sound. With NSM pending and BPS soon thereafter , these seem to be (according to Emile), the 2 biggest upticks in SQ......so for me, I remain interested in the BPS, but when I think of parting with the DCD to achieve this, has me now wanting to hear an a-b-a using the router, switch , dcd vs the router, switch and BPS . These seem to me to be the two ultimate ways to listen

If I understand correctly, if one purchases the BPS, it will always be used to power the Taiko Extreme. Regarding the Router and/or Switch, if the sound of: (a) using the DCD and filters is better than (b) the sound of powering the Router and/or Switch with the BPS, one is not forced to use the BPS and can continue using the DCD and filters for the Router and/or Switch, while powering the Extreme with the BPS.

 

[cmarin]

The more I read posts of this nature, the more I feel that the DCD and filters is a huge option to have in the Taiko scheme of things...so much so that those of us who are strongly considering BPS are beginning to realize that with BPS, the DCD and filters go away. I have to admit that as I listen daily the DCD to me imparts all of the emotion and feeling that continues to draw me in. It is beginning to feel like an essential part of the Taiko sound. With NSM pending and BPS soon thereafter , these seem to be (according to Emile), the 2 biggest upticks in SQ......so for me, I remain interested in the BPS, but when I think of parting with the DCD to achieve this, has me now wanting to hear an a-b-a using the router, switch , dcd vs the router, switch and BPS . These seem to me to be the two ultimate ways to listen

Careful Steve…I don’t know how many times I’ve said “I don’t see how it can get better than this”, and here come Emile/Ed/Taiko team to prove me wrong! ;-)

 

[Steve Williams]

If I understand correctly, if one purchases the BPS, it will always be used to power the Taiko Extreme. Regarding the Router and/or Switch, if the sound of: (a) using the DCD and filters is better than (b) the sound of powering the Router and/or Switch with the BPS, one is not forced to use the BPS and can continue using the DCD and filters for the Router and/or Switch, while powering the Extreme with the BPS.

That was my thought as well but I remember reading yesterday that with the BPS, the DCD might become unnecessary

 

[Steve Williams]

Careful Steve…I don’t know how many times I’ve said “I don’t see how it can get better than this”, and here come Emile/Ed/Taiko team to prove me wrong! ;-)

"it's like the gift that keeps on giving", ...was the line in Christmas Vacation to best describe the Taiko experience

 

[VPN]

That was my thought as well but I remember reading yesterday that with the BPS, the DCD might become unnecessary

My understanding is that the DCD becomes unnecessary only if one prefers the BPS sound vs the DCD sound. One is not forced to use the BPS to power the Router and/or Switch. Perhaps Emile can clarify.

 

[Steve Williams]

My understanding is that the DCD becomes unnecessary only if one prefers the BPS sound vs the DCD sound. One is not forced to use the BPS to power the Router and/or Switch. Perhaps Emile can clarify.

Precisely my point. My question therefore to the Taiko team is "if the BPS is used, does it obviate the use of the DCD and filters or do they complement one another as VPN suggests

 

[John T]

Precisely my point. My question therefore to the Taiko team is "if the BPS is used, does it obviate the use of the DCD and filters or do they complement one another as VPN suggests

If you go BPS the Power Distributer becomes obsolete. I would find it very difficult to imagine the Power Distributer will out perform the BPS....As Emile shared ALT1, ALT2, DEFAULT, they filter noise...