The cars you have loved, or are in love with. Tell us your car history and what each one taught you

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,796
1,415
230
49
France, Canada
Not to mention the Elon Musk,, Tesla owner is a jackass. Producing electricity is dirty too. That battery has to be charged.
Carbon fuel efficiency is a band aid.
Exactly. Replacing a ~4000 lbs. vehicle with one that weighs 6000 lbs. in the name of being "green" doesn't inherently make sense. A World Economic Forum report calculated that you have to drive about 100k km before an EV breaks-even with the CO2 production of a gas engined vehicle! Yes, after that the EV is producing less CO2; but the reality is that most EV owners will have moved on to another car by then, or replaced the battery, thereby restarting the CO2 emissions cycle. This does not even take into account how the electricity is generated -- it's solely from the CO2 emissions for production of the battery.

Of course, the size of battery makes a difference. But the disturbing trend seems to be for larger batteries, not smaller. We want our electric pickup trucks to have a long range, fast acceleration, and lots of room.

Thinking about it further, the race to EV adoption is front-loading about 5X more CO2 into the atmosphere each year, because we drive on avg 20K km per year, so instead of outputting 'X' tons of CO2 per year by driving a gas car, by buying an EV you are emitting 5X more CO2 into the air in the year you get the new car.
 

Fishfood

VIP/Donor
Jul 11, 2020
537
541
255
44
Exactly. Replacing a ~4000 lbs. vehicle with one that weighs 6000 lbs. in the name of being "green" doesn't inherently make sense. A World Economic Forum report calculated that you have to drive about 100k km before an EV breaks-even with the CO2 production of a gas engined vehicle! Yes, after that the EV is producing less CO2; but the reality is that most EV owners will have moved on to another car by then, or replaced the battery, thereby restarting the CO2 emissions cycle. This does not even take into account how the electricity is generated -- it's solely from the CO2 emissions for production of the battery.

Of course, the size of battery makes a difference. But the disturbing trend seems to be for larger batteries, not smaller. We want our electric pickup trucks to have a long range, fast acceleration, and lots of room.

Thinking about it further, the race to EV adoption is front-loading about 5X more CO2 into the atmosphere each year, because we drive on avg 20K km per year, so instead of outputting 'X' tons of CO2 per year by driving a gas car, by buying an EV you are emitting 5X more CO2 into the air in the year you get the new car.
Yeah but I sure don't mind the cleaner air. There really is no downside if everything is bad no matter the car. Why not be prepared for when we have plentiful clean energy sources and newer more efficient battery technology? I never understand everyone's resistance to change.
 

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,043
995
Utah
Yeah but I sure don't mind the cleaner air. There really is no downside if everything is bad no matter the car. Why not be prepared for when we have plentiful clean energy sources and newer more efficient battery technology? I never understand everyone's resistance to change.
It’s resistance against the sham, the forced and the coercion not change when by choice.

david
 

Fishfood

VIP/Donor
Jul 11, 2020
537
541
255
44
It’s resistance against the sham, the forced and the coercion not change when by choice.

david
Capitalism is funny that way. I don't think you can say the free market is coercion just because you don't agree with what people are buying. You can think they are dumb for preferring goods you don't but in the end, we make purchases that please us for a host of reasons, to reach personal objectives.

You know that your stereo sounds awesome. I purchase a stereo from you because it sounds awesome and it makes me feel good to have a stereo that sounds awesome. My dad thinks I'm insane because he thinks you've convinced me it sounds awesome but it doesn't to him. And he thinks it looks stupid in the house and he would never want it in his house. Maybe in the past I haven't purchased something like this because I valued his opinion more than the pleasure I receive from the awesome stereo, but now the pleasure outweighs his opinion.
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,796
1,415
230
49
France, Canada
Yeah but I sure don't mind the cleaner air. There really is no downside if everything is bad no matter the car. Why not be prepared for when we have plentiful clean energy sources and newer more efficient battery technology? I never understand everyone's resistance to change.
Modern cars have been cleaning air not polluting it. Volvo ran ads to this effect in the 1990s. Not to say they do not pollute, but that the exhaust air is cleaner than the intake air.

Also, EVs still pollute based on the energy required to make the batteries and to charge the batteries. Just because there's no tailpipe, doesn't mean there's no pollution.

I think it's funny when someone in a $200K Tesla thinks it's "green" because there's "no pollution".

EVs have many benefits, I'm not against them. It should be the public's right to choose, not be forced upon them by government officials who are driven by other factors.
 

Zeotrope

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2021
1,796
1,415
230
49
France, Canada
WSJ article yesterday about the challenges of building the charging network infrastructure in the US. Despite many billions in government subsidies, the network is nowhere near where it needs to be, and it's not clear if it ever will be.
LiOn powered EVs, when looked back upon through the lens of time, may be a footnote in the evolution of the auto. I hope everyone driving an EV is leasing it - I wouldn't want to be stuck holding the bag when a better energy storage source is ready for deployment.
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
Not to mention the Elon Musk,, Tesla owner is a jackass. Producing electricity is dirty too. That battery has to be charged.
Carbon fuel efficiency is a band aid.
I don't know if you can specify a 'green' tariff living in the US.?
Here in the UK you can select a supplier or tariff that is from renewable sources only.
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
It’s resistance against the sham, the forced and the coercion not change when by choice.

david
Perhaps you can tell us which part of the science on AGW is a sham?

And out of curiosity, where did you study the science behind climate?
 

Fishfood

VIP/Donor
Jul 11, 2020
537
541
255
44
WSJ article yesterday about the challenges of building the charging network infrastructure in the US. Despite many billions in government subsidies, the network is nowhere near where it needs to be, and it's not clear if it ever will be.
LiOn powered EVs, when looked back upon through the lens of time, may be a footnote in the evolution of the auto. I hope everyone driving
I don't know if you can specify a 'green' tariff living in the US.?
Here in the UK you can select a supplier or tariff that is from renewable sources only.

I'n my city in the US, you can pay a little more for renewable sourced energy directed to your residence if you choose. Additionally, they are now providing 44% of all of everyone's electricity in our city of 45K from renewables. That seems like pretty nice progress and our air is noticeable cleaning than it was 10 years ago. I can't see the downside.
 
  • Like
Reactions: infinitely baffled

Fishfood

VIP/Donor
Jul 11, 2020
537
541
255
44
Perhaps you can tell us which part of the science on AGW is a sham?

And out of curiosity, where did you study the science behind climate?
Even my father-in-law, who is in fact a scientist (and head of the chemistry department at a large university) and a GIANT sceptic about human causes of global warming thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with measures taken to reduce emissions and the rise of renewable energy. He questions the efficiency of moving quickly in an economic sense but completely agrees it's the correct direction... because as he says, "what if I'm wrong?"
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
Agreed. The Precautionary principle is a wise one indeed.
If you specify a green tariff here, all one's energy is from renewables including charge for your ev. (That i can't quite afford just yet)

Btw the green tariff is slso the cheapest. Here, that is.
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
  • Like
Reactions: Fishfood

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
It’s resistance against the sham, the forced and the coercion not change when by choice.

david
'I will not be forced or coerced into change against my choice' - a citizen of Pompeii, c.79AD
 
  • Like
Reactions: DetroitVinylRob

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
6,261
4,043
995
Utah
Perhaps you can tell us which part of the science on AGW is a sham?

And out of curiosity, where did you study the science behind climate?

'I will not be forced or coerced into change against my choice' - a citizen of Pompeii, c.79AD
Aside from having zero desire to converse with you on any topic Gavin. Even if I wanted to arguing this would be an exercise in futility with anyone who still believes these sources given the past two years.

david
 
Last edited:

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
Aside from having zero desire to converse with you on any topic Gavin. Even if I wanted to arguing this would be an exercise in futility with anyone who still believes these sources given the past two years.

david
I'm happy for you that you can recognise the weakness of your position.
By 'these sources' i take it you mean the ICPCC, NASA, The National Oceanographic Institution....i mean, what do they know about the weather?


As for not wishing to converse with me, my advice would be not to troll my threads.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PierreB

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,531
5,068
1,228
Switzerland
I'm happy for you that you can recognise the weakness of your position.
By 'these sources' i take it you mean the IGPCC, NASA, The National Oceanographic Institution....i mean, what do they know about the weather?


As for not wishing to converse with me, my advice would be not to troll my threads.
What do you know? I have a Ph.D in Aerosol Chemistry. There may be warming but it is not clear that what degree of it human caused. And while it is warmer than it was in the 1880s, most of the world (that was paying attention to these things...ie. Northern Hemisphere) was just coming out of the little Ice age, where it was significantly colder than the longer average and probably was due to solar cycles.

We are currently in a (relative) warm period, akin to the medieval warm period or the Roman warm period: "For the first time, we can state the Roman period was the warmest period of time of the last 2,000 years, and these conditions lasted for 500 years,’ said Professor Isabel Cacho at the Department of Earth and Ocean Dynamics, University of Barcelona." BTW, this period was driven more by solar cycles and was warmer than now...think about it...

The point is that even if it is warming, this is generally better for humanity than worse. Sea level rise of mm/year means that people have CENTURIES to move...no one is at risk in the immediate or even mid-term time frame.

Severe weather? NOAA concluded that there is no indication that Hurricanes are more frequent than before...just easier to detect. Damage from them has more to do with how much is built up in the way of the storms now vs. the past.

Warmer climate in general means MORE water in the atmosphere, more rain and plants like it better. Higher CO2? Ask the plants how they like it (answer: they do).
 

infinitely baffled

VIP/Donor
Jul 2, 2015
1,259
387
340
Scotland
What do you know? I have a Ph.D in Aerosol Chemistry. There may be warming but it is not clear that what degree of it human caused. And while it is warmer than it was in the 1880s, most of the world (that was paying attention to these things...ie. Northern Hemisphere) was just coming out of the little Ice age, where it was significantly colder than the longer average and probably was due to solar cycles.

We are currently in a (relative) warm period, akin to the medieval warm period or the Roman warm period: "For the first time, we can state the Roman period was the warmest period of time of the last 2,000 years, and these conditions lasted for 500 years,’ said Professor Isabel Cacho at the Department of Earth and Ocean Dynamics, University of Barcelona." BTW, this period was driven more by solar cycles and was warmer than now...think about it...

The point is that even if it is warming, this is generally better for humanity than worse. Sea level rise of mm/year means that people have CENTURIES to move...no one is at risk in the immediate or even mid-term time frame.

Severe weather? NOAA concluded that there is no indication that Hurricanes are more frequent than before...just easier to detect. Damage from them has more to do with how much is built up in the way of the storms now vs. the past.

Warmer climate in general means MORE water in the atmosphere, more rain and plants like it better. Higher CO2? Ask the plants how they like it (answer: they do).

What do i know?
Well given that I'm not contradicting the scientific consensus, that's irrelevant.

But as a horticulturalist i can tell you that plants are happiest with a co2 level of 1500ppm. The current levels are c450ppm (up in our lifetimes from 350ppm)
At 1000 ppm...well, don't take my word for it:

"For earlier geological times, CO2 concentrations and temperatures have been inferred from less direct methods. Those suggest that the concentration of CO2 last approached 400 ppm about 3 to 5 million years ago, a period when global average surface temperature is estimated to have been about 2 to 3.5°C higher than in the pre-industrial period. At 50 million years ago, CO2 may have reached 1000 ppm, and global average temperature was probably about 10°C warmer than today. Under those conditions, Earth had little ice, and sea level was at least 60 metres higher than current levels."

Source:https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/projects/climate-change-evidence-causes/question-7/

So given the above, and that at concentrations above 1000 ppm humans begin to experience fatigue and dizziness, we really DON'T want to rely on whether plants would be happier with higher co2 levels as a guide to what is best for the planet, do we?

Then you have made this laughable assertion:

"Sea level rise of mm/year means that people have CENTURIES to move...no one is at risk in the immediate or even mid-term time frame. "

Tell that to the people of Pakistan.
This isn't how it works, a gradually tiny increase of mm's per year. What you get is storm
inundation, so rather less benign:

Sea level rise – which human activity has very likely been the main driver of since at least 1971 according to IPCC AR6 – should be causing higher coastal inundation levels for tropical cyclones that do occur, all else assumed equal.

Source:https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/


Then we have your cherry picked climate data.

"The phrase "Roman Warm Period" first appears in a 1995 doctoral thesis. It was popularized by an article published in Nature in 1999.[6]

More recent research, including a 2019 analysis based on a much larger dataset of climate proxies, has found that the putative period, along with other warmer or colder pre-industrial periods such as the "Little Ice Age" and "Medieval Warm Period," were regional phenomena, not globally-coherent episodes.That analysis uses the temperature record of the last 2,000 years dataset compiled by the PAGES 2k Consortium 2017.


So you are comparing a regional phenomenon, linked to increased solar output, with a global trend that departs from solar output.?
Interesting cherry picking.
Let's take a broader view, shall we?


From the article:
During the 1,900 years before the 20th century, it is likely that the next warmest period was from 950 to 1100, with peaks at different times in different regions. This has been called the Medieval Warm Period, and some evidence suggests widespread cooler conditions during a period around the 17th century known as the Little Ice Age. In the "hockey stick controversy", climate change deniers have asserted that the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than at present, and have disputed the data and methods of climate reconstructions.
 

Attachments

  • 2000+_year_global_temperature_including_Medieval_Warm_Period_and_Little_Ice_Age_-_Ed_Hawkins.svg.png
    2000+_year_global_temperature_including_Medieval_Warm_Period_and_Little_Ice_Age_-_Ed_Hawkins.svg.png
    210.1 KB · Views: 2
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DetroitVinylRob

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing