Neil, does a Liquinox solution in a bottle, used for RCM pre-cleaning, "separate" over time? I'm wondering if I should give the bottle a slight tipsy-turvy shake if I haven't used it in a week or so.
tima's DIY RCM
- Thread starter tima
- Start date
Here's a little report about my system...
I bought the HM Digital COM-100 EC/TDS Meter that Neil suggested from amazon for ~$60 USD. It's a nice meter -- read the small print manual to learn what and how it does its thing. Once you get the hang of it, it is reasonably easy to use although it has small little buttons closely spaced but a clear easy to read (with glasses) screen I'll take Neil's word that its accuracy is above the typical $15 meter.
The COM-100 has multiple measures for electrical conductivity (EC) in micro and milli-Siemens (µS, mS) and for TDS in pp-million and pp-thousand. There are two ppm/ppt options, One for salt that uses the 0.5 NaCL scale and a proprietary scale named 442(tm) that "simulates the properties of natural water (rivers, lakes, drinking water etc.) witha combination of 40% Sodium Bicarbonate, 40% Sodium Sulfate and 20% Chloride." Apparently an earlier version had a KCl scal for Potassium Chloride but that is no longer included although it is shown in the outdated on-line manual which notes the meter is calibrated with a 1413 µS KCl solution. The meter can be calibrated - I won't get into that, and it has a replaceable sensor.
You click one of the small buttons to rotate through the 6 'modes' described above. I choose to pay attention to the µS micro-Siemens EC reading and the 442 ppm settings. Note the 442 mode is labeled '0.7' on the screen and the NaCL mode is name ''05'. They could have labeled them 442 and NaCL (which the earlier model did) - but someone figured that was too straightforward. No doubt there are reasons for their labeling choices, but heh that's what we amateurs get when we choose to use a 'professional tool'.
Anyway ...
I needed to change the water+solution in my wash tank and also the distilled water in my rinse tank.
I used the each tank's pump to take the old water out. I did not change the filter water on either.
Here is where the fun starts.
With a tankful of fresh grocery store distilled water the COM-100 told me the tank now measued 1.2 µS conductivity and 0.7ppm for the 442/0.7 mode. Normally I expect distilled water to measure 0.00 ppm - but that was using my old $18 7Pros TDS meter I bought in 2018. Go figure. The grocery store distilled water is steam-distilled which is probably good enough for steam-irons and I'll postulate it's good enough for record cleaning. I used to buy 5 gallon jugs of Nerl Reaent Grade Lab Water - but that got too expensive and the shipping became a killer. Maybe this meter is more accurate !
Next I added Tergitol 15-S-9 in a 0.0150% concentration and, now that Neil is a little more relaxed on IPA, I decided to go back to using that. Or, at least I'll try it until it evaporates over time. I probably don't need the IPA as I had good results from Tergitol alone, but hey, DIY. In all honesty I had a bit higher concentration of Tergitol. 0.0150% in my tank works out to ~1.8ml. I used 2ml and I'll get a wee bit of foam from that and detergency.
With the solution in the wash tank I took another measurement. Now the meter gave a 5.0 µS conductivity and a 3.2 ppm reading on the 0.7 mode. Pretty low by my experience and, being fanatical, another reason to rinse.
Here is where it gets wierd.
I filled my Elma S120 rinse tank with grocery store distilled water. A mix of brands. The COM-100 gave me a 0.7 mode ppm reading of 23.4! I have no clue other than to suspect my grocery store jugs were mis-labeled or mis-distilled or just a lower standard. Horrors - It would seem that my belief all distilled water was pretty much the same was shattered - hah. I'll need to get something different. Maybe I'll take the meter to the store.
I suppose the moral of the story for those who read this far is: test your water.
... wait a minute. Just before hitting 'reply' I checked and found 2 more jugs of grocery store distilled water under the sink - two different brands. With the 'Food Club' brand the meter gave me a 0.7 ppm. The 'Nature Valley' brand showed 6.7ppm. aha! The moral of the story holds.
I bought the HM Digital COM-100 EC/TDS Meter that Neil suggested from amazon for ~$60 USD. It's a nice meter -- read the small print manual to learn what and how it does its thing. Once you get the hang of it, it is reasonably easy to use although it has small little buttons closely spaced but a clear easy to read (with glasses) screen I'll take Neil's word that its accuracy is above the typical $15 meter.
The COM-100 has multiple measures for electrical conductivity (EC) in micro and milli-Siemens (µS, mS) and for TDS in pp-million and pp-thousand. There are two ppm/ppt options, One for salt that uses the 0.5 NaCL scale and a proprietary scale named 442(tm) that "simulates the properties of natural water (rivers, lakes, drinking water etc.) witha combination of 40% Sodium Bicarbonate, 40% Sodium Sulfate and 20% Chloride." Apparently an earlier version had a KCl scal for Potassium Chloride but that is no longer included although it is shown in the outdated on-line manual which notes the meter is calibrated with a 1413 µS KCl solution. The meter can be calibrated - I won't get into that, and it has a replaceable sensor.
You click one of the small buttons to rotate through the 6 'modes' described above. I choose to pay attention to the µS micro-Siemens EC reading and the 442 ppm settings. Note the 442 mode is labeled '0.7' on the screen and the NaCL mode is name ''05'. They could have labeled them 442 and NaCL (which the earlier model did) - but someone figured that was too straightforward. No doubt there are reasons for their labeling choices, but heh that's what we amateurs get when we choose to use a 'professional tool'.
Anyway ...
I needed to change the water+solution in my wash tank and also the distilled water in my rinse tank.
I used the each tank's pump to take the old water out. I did not change the filter water on either.
Here is where the fun starts.
With a tankful of fresh grocery store distilled water the COM-100 told me the tank now measued 1.2 µS conductivity and 0.7ppm for the 442/0.7 mode. Normally I expect distilled water to measure 0.00 ppm - but that was using my old $18 7Pros TDS meter I bought in 2018. Go figure. The grocery store distilled water is steam-distilled which is probably good enough for steam-irons and I'll postulate it's good enough for record cleaning. I used to buy 5 gallon jugs of Nerl Reaent Grade Lab Water - but that got too expensive and the shipping became a killer. Maybe this meter is more accurate !
Next I added Tergitol 15-S-9 in a 0.0150% concentration and, now that Neil is a little more relaxed on IPA, I decided to go back to using that. Or, at least I'll try it until it evaporates over time. I probably don't need the IPA as I had good results from Tergitol alone, but hey, DIY. In all honesty I had a bit higher concentration of Tergitol. 0.0150% in my tank works out to ~1.8ml. I used 2ml and I'll get a wee bit of foam from that and detergency.
With the solution in the wash tank I took another measurement. Now the meter gave a 5.0 µS conductivity and a 3.2 ppm reading on the 0.7 mode. Pretty low by my experience and, being fanatical, another reason to rinse.
Here is where it gets wierd.
I filled my Elma S120 rinse tank with grocery store distilled water. A mix of brands. The COM-100 gave me a 0.7 mode ppm reading of 23.4! I have no clue other than to suspect my grocery store jugs were mis-labeled or mis-distilled or just a lower standard. Horrors - It would seem that my belief all distilled water was pretty much the same was shattered - hah. I'll need to get something different. Maybe I'll take the meter to the store.
I suppose the moral of the story for those who read this far is: test your water.
... wait a minute. Just before hitting 'reply' I checked and found 2 more jugs of grocery store distilled water under the sink - two different brands. With the 'Food Club' brand the meter gave me a 0.7 ppm. The 'Nature Valley' brand showed 6.7ppm. aha! The moral of the story holds.
@tima, thanks for this great experience report. I'm using deionized water, so I'll have to see what I get with the COM-100 (which I also just received).
@Neil.Antin, could you give us some insight into how you'd use the COM-100? Settings and all? It seems like there are different ways to evaluate things.
@Neil.Antin, could you give us some insight into how you'd use the COM-100? Settings and all? It seems like there are different ways to evaluate things.
Here is the current COM-100 manual - com100 (hmdigital.com). They are calculating TDS by multiplying the conductivity (EC) by a non-linear conversion constant (K) which they show as the following:
-TDS NaCl varies between 0.45 to 0.5 (ppm per micro Siemen conductivity)
-TDS 440 varies between 0.65 to 0.85 (ppm per micro Siemen conductivity)
Because of the different constants, NaCl will read less than if using the 440 constant. The COM-100 manual specifies for Drinking/Tap-Water and Purified water to use the 440 or the NaCl constants. If using to measure tap-water, the 442-conversion is probably the best to use because of the different contaminants in the tap water. However, if using to measure distilled or demineralized water, the NaCl-conversion is probably the best to use which is what the book (PACVR) uses for Table IV, Note 1 noting that resistivity is the inverse of conductivity.
Take care,
Neil
I've not seen this machine before. Does not look like a DIY effort.
Since it is under the Vinyl House name, @zerostargeneral may be able to tell us, if he sees this.
It's likely the Amari RW-800 record cleaning Machine and this is a forum thread on-it dating back 2017/2018 - Amari RW-800 Record Cleaning Machine | Vinyl and Turntables (stereonet.com). It does not appear to be still in production Amari Armani Audio - Guangzhou Yite Technology Co., Ltd.
it appears they had other machines as well at one time Cleaning Up The Sound With Amari - witchdoctor.co.nz.
@Neil.Antin or @tima, I just want to confirm. A 2.5% IPA of 91% Isopropyl in a 6L tank would require 164ml of IPA, yes?
Tony:
The equation is (Tank Volume in ml)(Final %IPA)/(%IPA used).
So, (6000-ml))(0.025-IPA)/0.91 = 165-ml (rounded up)
Take care,
Neil
@Neil.Antin, so I just did my first batch of records. .0075% Tergitol 15-S-9 plus 2.5% IPA. I'm trying an air dry technique as I can tilt the record spindle out of the bath and let it sit at about a 45 degree angle above the fluid. Any thoughts as to how long it should take to dry?
Tony:
Tim @tima is the person that can better help you with your question since that is how he dries his records, but if memory serves, I recall him saying 20-30 minutes. Let's see what he has to say.
Take care,
Neil
Thank Neil. I gave them about 40 minutes. When I pulled one of the records from the spindle there was nothing that would suggest to me any moisture - but that was just using a Mk 1 Mod 0 eyeball.
When I take a spindle off the rinse tank I give it a bit of a shake and hold it at an angle. Most of the water kinda sheets off, forming into a pie slice shape, so there is actually not much in the way of drops or pools on the records. Then I transfer the spindle to my RD drying rack which has two receptacles for a spindle, one straight up for mounting and the other at an angle for drying. Tanks are in another room.
So yes, 20-30 minutes is about right in my system. No doubt room temp and relative humidity are factors and I use visual inspection more so than timing. The air in my house is a bit dryer in the winter. I run a small HEPA filter near the drying location with its output straight in the air but it does not blow on records. Occasionaly there may be a dust particle on the top most record that my brush will whisk off.
If your spindle is above the tank, there is a humidity source. Maybe you said; what machine? or system do you use? Feel free to post a picture if you like.
Here's what mine look like while air drying...
When I mount records on a spindle I use a dish rack to hold the album cover and record sleeve placed in the order I mount the records. That makes it easy to re-insert the records as I take them off the spindle. For a new record I put the album cover in a plastic sleeve and put the original sleeve inside the album cover. Dry, coming off the spindle, I insert the record into its own sleeve and stick a tiny post-it note on that sleeve with the date stamped on it. (I make a batch of those post-it notes while records are cleaning) I then place the sleeved record beween the album cover and the album sleeve.
Thanks @tima. I'm using an iSonic P4875II, but I built a specialized motor controller for it that allows me to vary the speed of their record spinner, all the way down to 0.5RPM. With their 10 record spindle and using their spacers I can get 6 records in the bath, with equal spacing of just about 1-1/4" between each. Should be enough room for the ultrasonic (which is only at I think either 37KHz or 40KHz) to be reasonably effective. Not using the heater.
Unfortunately right now I only have the one mounting rod, so I can't pull the whole spindle off the way you do (which you, BTW, have done a pretty bas a$$ job putting all together!). So I think I'd like to get a drying rack kind of along the lines of a dish rack, or maybe something like this
Amazon.com: WEWU ROUNDS Vinyl Record Stand Storage Holder for 12" LP 7" EP Vinyl Records Drying Table Record Stand Stainless for 10 pcs Records : Electronics
with a towel underneath it. Right now I'm just keeping it tilted over the bath, but my house is pretty dry (even if I am in Florida!), so yesterday it looked like about 40 minutes got the job done. I just don't want to risk putting them back in their sleeves with any bit of moisture on them. But I agree - when I lift them out the liquid sheets right off. Nice!
Unfortunately right now I only have the one mounting rod, so I can't pull the whole spindle off the way you do (which you, BTW, have done a pretty bas a$$ job putting all together!). So I think I'd like to get a drying rack kind of along the lines of a dish rack, or maybe something like this
Amazon.com: WEWU ROUNDS Vinyl Record Stand Storage Holder for 12" LP 7" EP Vinyl Records Drying Table Record Stand Stainless for 10 pcs Records : Electronics
with a towel underneath it. Right now I'm just keeping it tilted over the bath, but my house is pretty dry (even if I am in Florida!), so yesterday it looked like about 40 minutes got the job done. I just don't want to risk putting them back in their sleeves with any bit of moisture on them. But I agree - when I lift them out the liquid sheets right off. Nice!
@Neil.Antin, so at the 0.5 setting on the COM-100, at what value should the bath fluid be cleaned?
Last edited:
If filtering:
XIV.13.1 The final cleaner chemistry paragraph XIV.10 is nonionic; including the IPA. Bath ionic purity – TDS, can be easily monitored. There are many inexpensive TDS meters available, but resolution and full-scale accuracy at the lowest scale can yield inaccurate results. TDS meters such as the HM COM-100 (http://hmdigital.com/product/com-100/) can at the lowest range measure with a 0.1 ppm resolution recalling from Table VI that new purified water should measure <2.5 ppm TDS. However, in-use, allowing the TDS to increase to 10 ppm; same as Navy Grade B water specified in Table VI, should yield acceptable results as implied Table VII.
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Co-Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |