tima's DIY RCM
- Thread starter tima
- Start date
Tim:
Got it - Yes you did not miss it. Couple other items to consider, the P60 is 5.1-kg + ~0.57 Kg (bath water) = 5.67-kg = ~12.5-lbs. That's a fair amount of weight on the Vinyl Maid base and their new design aluminum tower design is appears very rigid.
But your question as to how strong the magnet is, is a fair question. The record stack weight with 3-records (180-gm/ea) should be less than ~2.5-lbs. So, it does not need much magnetic power to hold it to the motor drive.
Take care,
Neil
I see that as something of a design limitation in as much as the tank must be in very precise position relative to the tower to obtain sufficient clearance for all records to rotate freely. Once the tank has water in it no adjustment is possible.
The magnetic coupling strength must be strong enough to handle moving a spindle's worth of records up and down the tower. The clamping mechanism to secure the record holder looks like plastic on plastic relying on friction and clamp tightness to keep the records in position. How long will that hold up over time? U
The Vinyl Maid is an interesting but untested option -- we keyboard jockey's can speculate about it, but I want to see some real world use, say 150 records cleaned by each of multiple end users before I would reccomend it. It may turn out to go the route of other rotisserie before it or it may be judged an excellent choice.
Tim:
You and I see things differently based on our different professions.
When you first set this up, the tank is empty, and you would have a record that you would use as a guide to set things in place. Otherwise, the amount of water 6L only adds only about 12% weight to the tank weight.
Regarding the record hub to motor hub, it's a good secure design. The record hub slides completely over the motor hub and is then clamped into position by the magnet. And, if you look at page 5 of 7 of the manual that is a big magnet and if were to be (which it is not) a high-performance neodymium magnet it could easily achieve over 50-lbs clamping force. Additionally, the torque that the records apply to the hub are trivial. If we assume the record weight at 1.5-lbs and its center of gravity at 4-inches from the hub, the torque on the hub is (4-in)(1.5-lbs) = 6 inch-lbs; this is not even the equivalence of finger-tight. So moving the records up and down will not be a problem. The only item is how much force is required to separate the record hub from the motor hub. It may be a two-hand job, one on the motor, the other on the record stack. But a simple call to the vendor would answer that.
Regarding the record stack clamping mechanism, they are using a metal spindle, you can see the metal bolt hex head on page 5 of 7. The record end side plastic knurled clamping knob likely has a metal insert - that's the normal design. Otherwise, the long-term reliability item would be the durability of the foam disks.
Otherwise, here is at least one user Share your Record Cleaning Machine Experience | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums, if I find others I will update.
But understand, I am not challenging the Kuzma design, which is very well designed, only bringing to people's attention (the audience that is reading) that beyond the inexpensive Chinese spinners, there is a UK alternative that is very similar to the VinylStack spinner that has a long history of successful use.
Peace,
Neil
No problems, Neil.
I just want to hear medium term usage reports about the VM before suggesting purchase. I'm trying to think through the step-by-step hands-on of using the VM with a tank, based on the pictures I see. From mounting records to dismounting records. It is my understanding that both of us are basing our comments on the pictures in the manual; if you have knowledges beyond that, I defer.
Yes of course, the smart thing to do is to position the tank loaded with 3 records with the VM plexiglass base before adding water. If a stiff drain hose is attached to the P60, that is another factor in positioning. The tank needs to stay in a precise position while filling and afterwards. 6L H2O is roughly 13.25 lbs, the P60 tank weighs about 11 pounds (5.1 kg according to Elma.) Perhaps put a thin non-slip map under the plexiglass base before filling the tank. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it can't be done but it is practical issue that comes with the VM and worth thinking about. If I were to do a review of the Vinyl Maid and compare it to what I know, I would mention the various points I find when setting it up and using the VM, all with the advantage of doing so hands-on.
Yes, I understand. And I believe we are in agreement in supporting quality development of RCMs, DIY efforts and record cleaning in general. Your work and the giving of your time in this area is world-class and we truly appreciate your participation here. The Kuzma RD has proven itself over years of use; its design, materials (stainless steel support structure) and its inclusion of spindle support for mounting and drying records, along with its ease of use, is all top-notch. I wish success to the VM effort proving itself as a lower cost rotisserie option.
Thank you 'tima' for yet another very detailed and very informative post on your invaluable experiences living with and using the Kuzma RD.. Very much appreciated. Ypu have also raised some very interesting and important points and concerns regarding the possible practicalities of using the 'The Vinyl Maid'.
If we did a risk assessment (particularly regarding the possibility of damaging priceless / very sought after LPs) between the Kuzma RD and The Vinyl Maid, I would imagine the Kuzma RD would win hands down ! This risk assessment would however require assumptions with the use and operation of 'The Vinyl Maid' only by reading it's manual and our thought process and imagination.
However, from both your experiences 'tima' and other people experiences on using the Kuzma RD, it seems to be the best choice out of the two. And if assurances of zero damage to an LP (assuming correct loading and unloading of the LPs) with the Kuzma RD, this would make the differences in price with 'The Vinyl Maid' more justifiable i.e. on the thinking that it could be possible to scratch or create more damage to a high prized LP that is currently worth say circa US$600+ and either difficult to replace or near impossible !
Thinking of raising a thread / post dedicated for peoples experiences of using and owning the 'The Vinyl Source' 'The Vinyl Maid' latest model 'MK 11b' that Vinyl Source currently advertise on their website ?
Thank you 'Bill Hart' for your posting that raises some interesting challenges and points of discussion. Very much appreciated.
Yes you are 100% with my thinking that the KM RCM is the primary RCM for hopefully removing most of the gunk from the grooves with the US RCM being used to remove very small gunk deep within the grooves the KM can't remove and also as a so called 'polisher' and then a final rinse with the KM RCM using pure distilled water.
As you also say, the quantity of LPs I have to clean isn't that huge and I can clean the back log of them (that have already been cleaned with the KM RCM) that will be ultrasonically cleaned over a reasonable period of time (mostly at weekends), with future new and second hand record purchases received during the week and at weekends (say max 5 LPs per week) will also be washed at weekends along with the back log LPs.
So with further thinking and a re-calculation on my record quantities of my LPs that will be ultrasonically cleaned;
My max number of LPs for the back log of approx. 500 LPs to be ultrasonically cleaned being say 20 to 30 LPs on a Saturday over say 5 hours (i.e. 4 to 6 LPs per hour), and the same on a Sunday (also over say 5 hours) so max 40 to 60 LPs ultrasonically cleaned over a complete weekend therefore taking max 12.5 / 13 to weekends or min 8.33 / 9 weekends i.e. say approx. 2.5 to 3 months (allowing for new purchases - see below) to ultrasonically clean the back log.
Then if I say an extra 2 LPs per week for future LP purchases which will also need to be KM RCM cleaned first and then ultrasonically cleaned along with the back log of LPs that are being ultrasonically cleaned. Therefore if I say, average 2 new LP purchases per week over the 2.5 to 3 months i.e. 2 LPs to be cleaned over a weekend whilst I am ultrasonically cleaning the 500 LP back log, the back log of ultrasonic cleaning will still take approx. 2.5 to 3 months (as given above).
So from the above LP quantities in the weekend cleaning batches I need to do (for the back log and new future LP purchases) , assuming a US RCM cleaning cycle takes say max 15 mins (most probably a lot less i.e. 5mins ???) a US RCM should be capable of cleaning 2 LPs at once, although I could have just one LP cleaned at any one time if I used say a 5min ultrasonic cleaning time.
Therefore, with further and a more detailed assessment of quantity of LPs I need to ultrasonically clean as given above, I can also now consider a single LP US RCM !
What would be so great though (and food for thought / thinking aloud), is to have a very powerful electronic microscope that is affordable to buy for DIY home use so we can see how clean the record is at each stage of the process. I may find that the KM RCM cleans my LPs enough and I don't need a US RCM at all or it could be the complete opposite and the KM RCM leaves a load of gunk untouched and the US RCM can remove it all ! I have used my Dino-Lite 700 to 900x USB Microscope on the solid and highly accurate adjustable Dino-Lite RK10-A Stand and although I can see the record grooves and some debris left behind it isn't powerful enough to see right into the deep depths of the record grooves.
Looks like 'The Vinyl Source' 'The Vinyl Maid' latest model 'MK 11b' has been reduced in price from £320 to £280;
www.thevinylsource.co.uk
Vinyl Record Cleaner LP Washer Cleaning Machine 5 Records Per Batch, UK made | vinyl
The Vinyl Source - The Vinyl Maid Mk IIb While the MkII was a completely redesigned machine 90% different from the Mk I the MkIIb introduceds ome improvements to the already outstanding design of the MkII. The 8mm thick base made from black glossy perspex is now much larger, handy if you decide...
www.thevinylsource.co.uk
Handling records requires attention whatever you do with them. We vinylists know this, but which among us has never dinged an album?
I don't want to say any system has dangers or is more likely to lead to harming a record if I have not personally used it. Although I am critiquing the VM, I am not dissing it or claiming it comes with risk - I"ve never used it. As I said, I wish the Vinyl Maid success in proving itself an option.
At some point we ask ourselves "what is best for me" and we each answer that in our own way. Just as you and Bill H choose the Monks - a top quality horizontal vacuum, I choose the top quality Kuzma RD. around which to build my ultrasonic system. Originally I used the RD with a lower quality ultrasonic tank. It easily moved to the Elmasonic P120 and I bought a second RD to use with my Elmasonic rinse tank. You can see the beginning part of my journey in three articles on Bill Hart's excellent Web site The Vinyl Press. The first article (below) has several pictures of the RD components being put together. I met Neil through those articles and we have some lengthy talks in their comment section -- he is largely responsible for the evolution described in this thread.
Tima’s DIY RCM - The Vinyl Press
Tima’s DIY RCM As a dedicated vinylista, I’ve been cleaning records for over thirty years. Sound familiar? Cleaning techniques and technologies evolved across that time and my approach changed with the times. I’ve been using a Loricraft RC3 point nozzle machine and more recently an Audio Desk...
thevinylpress.com
As I said, we each make our own choices on what we want to use and what we want to spend. Vinyl is my only medium and I believe in curating my collection so I and its next owners can continue enjoying playing records. In 2016 I chose to pay for the best quality rotisserie available at the time. And imo its quality continues to warrant paying more. I am completely satisfied with Franc Kuzma's customer service. Early on I had a problem with the unit's motor - Franc sent me a new motor and an extra motor for backup, all at no cost.
I see above you mention the quantity of LPs you have. I assume that is a factor in your choices. You might do fine with the VM rotisserie.
As far as a Vinyl Maid thread goes, it is probably a good idea to pull the pieces of discussion together in a place dedicated to that discussion. The posts here can stay but I can copy them to a new VM thread. Good idea. Heck this thread is pretty long and I should create an index for it.
Last edited:
Tim:
Thanks for the kind words and yes we are in agreement. But let eat me crow here for a minute, recalling your decimal point typo, well darn it I did the same. 1L = 1kg. So, when the ~6L of water are added, the weight of the Elmasonic P60 just doubled to over 20-lbs.
Take care,
Neil
The Joy of Record Collecting.
10 LPs from my new Mint box set of Mahler Symphonies 5 - 10 waiting on their spindles for a trip to the cleaners.
Philips 6761 001 1972
10 LPs from my new Mint box set of Mahler Symphonies 5 - 10 waiting on their spindles for a trip to the cleaners.
Philips 6761 001 1972
While taking the 10 new records out of their sleeves (which are not reuseable but I keep anyway) the ultrasonic tanks get started to Degas the water. Both filter pumps are going. This runs for 10 minutes.
When Degas is finished, the filter pump is turned off. The first spindle of records is loaded and its wash cycle begins. The wash cycle has two phases. The first phase is run at 80% power for 10 minutes under the P120's auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power. I do not turn the heater on. At the start the water is nominally at 28°-30° F. As the two phases progress the water will heat and finally get to ~35° at the very end of 20 minutes.
Then I load the first spindle into the S120 Rinse Tank and put the second spindle into the P120 Wash Tank for the same cycle. The wash water has cooled considerably. The rinse goes for 10 minutes at full power 37kHz and no heat applied. The S120 tank is smaller and cheaper with fewer controls. Using the Kuzma RD rotisserie makes it very simple to move a spindle of 5 records from one tank to the next.
Rinsing
When Degas is finished, the filter pump is turned off. The first spindle of records is loaded and its wash cycle begins. The wash cycle has two phases. The first phase is run at 80% power for 10 minutes under the P120's auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power. I do not turn the heater on. At the start the water is nominally at 28°-30° F. As the two phases progress the water will heat and finally get to ~35° at the very end of 20 minutes.
Then I load the first spindle into the S120 Rinse Tank and put the second spindle into the P120 Wash Tank for the same cycle. The wash water has cooled considerably. The rinse goes for 10 minutes at full power 37kHz and no heat applied. The S120 tank is smaller and cheaper with fewer controls. Using the Kuzma RD rotisserie makes it very simple to move a spindle of 5 records from one tank to the next.
Rinsing
When each spindle of records completes its rinse cycle it goes back into my audio room for drying. Air drying takes ~15-20 minutes depending on room temp.
Notice the small HEPA filter in the lower right.
Gustav is smiling, his symphonies are clean.
Notice the small HEPA filter in the lower right.
Gustav is smiling, his symphonies are clean.
Awesome. Thank you 'tima' for this post with great photos and explanation of the main steps.
Am I reading it correctly that you don't put the Elmasonic's heating on at all and use the water at its non heated supply temperature ?
Also notice that you have different circulating pumps and filter housings for each of the tanks ?
Are the filter elements the same micron particulate capture / filter efficiency ?
Hi BJ - thanks.
I used to use the heater, setting it at 30 degrees F. Now only use it in winter when the air is cooler. The ultrasonic action will heat the water by itself.
Yes, the two filter systems are entirely different. For the wash tank I wanted the cleanest water I could get. There I use a 0.2 micron filter and a substantial pump. At 0.2 micron level filtration -- that's bacteria level -- the water is v-e-r-y clean.
For the rinse tank I used an early filter system I built from scratchfor my original DIY RCM years back. That one is described in my write-ups posted on The Vinyl Press -- links are in the first post of this thread.
my original DIY RCM
origina pump and l filter circa 2016
update from small to larger filter with smaller pore size -- that's on the Rinse Tank today, same pump as above.
We make it so easy for you guys
Below is my parts list for both filter systems -- I wrote this up a whle back. Here I did not check the links. @Neil.Antin l and I picked the large pump; he has since found other options and likely will jump in with that ping. Neil knows a lot about pump requirements and system matching.WASH TANK FILTER SYSTEM
Filter Canister Pentek 150574:
3/4" #10 3G Blue Filter Housing with Bracket and Meter Mount ~$33
Gauge Pentek 143549:
Differential Pressure Gauge for 3G Meter Mount Housings ~$53
Green (clean) 0-6 psid; Yellow (change) 6-9 psid; Red (dirty) 9-12 psid
Tubing: 3/8" ID x 50 Ft High Pressure Braided Clear PVC Vinyl Tubing Flexible Vinyl Tube, Heavy Duty Reinforced Vinyl Hose Tubing, BPA Free and Non Toxic
Pump Shurflo 8020-513-236 Pump 15vAC Power Cord 60PSI Switch 1.6 GPM
~ $140 - $190 (https://www.toboaenergy.com $142.57)
You will want to mount this pump on a board, not in a box. Neil has another pump suggestion, but for the moment I can't find my docs on that.
Filter FlowMax HP (Watts) FPP-0.2-975-DOE 2.5” x 9.75” DOE End Cap 0.2 micron absolute
~$50 (https://www.freshwatersystems.com)
Hose Barb for filter canister: x2 Hose Barb ¾” NPT x 3/8” Barb
Hose Barb for Pump: x2 Hose Barb 3/8” NPT x 3/8” Barb (nylon or plastic not metal)
On/Off Switch for Pump: BindMaster 3-Prong Grounded On/Off Switch (for pump)
~ $9
RINSE TANK FILTER SYSTEM
Filter Canister Pentek 158116 ¼” #10 Slim Line
Filter Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” Pleated Filter, 0.35 micron nominal
Tubing: Clear PVC vinyl food grade 3/8" ID intake from tank to pump, 1/4" output to filter cannister and back to tank.
Pump Little Giant 1-AA-OM
This pump is no longer made by Little Giant but is available on the Web from vendors: one two. It was original designed as a hot water pump for drink dispensers.
Pump Wiring You will need to attach wire and plug. I used this. Westinghouse Lamp Cord w/ switch
Pump Box Cantex 513371OU Junction Box
Hose barbs intake to pump 1/4"MNPT to 3/8", Nylon; discharge from pump 1/4" FNPT to 1/4" barb, brass; intake and discharge for filter cannister 1/4" MNPT to 1/4" barb, brass. Don't forget the plumbers tape.
One more thing ...
Something not discussed is locating all this stuff for ease of use and efficient operation. To hold both tanks and their pumps, etc. I built a custom sized waterproof tray using David's design, with wood and a thick tarp fastened to the frame with rust-proof staples.
Tray in place with pump and 2nd RD for rinse tank.
Fantastic 'tima'. Thank you for the very detailed and important information. Very much appreciated.Hi BJ - thanks.
I used to use the heater, setting it at 30 degrees F. Now only use it in winter when the air is cooler. The ultrasonic action will heat the water by itself.
Yes, the two filter systems are entirely different. For the wash tank I wanted the cleanest water I could get. There I use a 0.2 micron filter and a substantial pump. At 0.2 micron level filtration -- that's bacteria level -- the water is v-e-r-y clean.
For the rinse tank I used an early filter system I built from scratchfor my original DIY RCM years back. That one is described in my write-ups posted on The Vinyl Press -- links are in the first post of this thread.
View attachment 115501
my original DIY RCM
View attachment 115500
origina pump and l filter circa 2016
View attachment 115499
update from small to larger filter with smaller pore size -- that's on the Rinse Tank today, same pump as above.
We make it so easy for you guys
WASH TANK FILTER SYSTEM
Filter Canister Pentek 150574:
3/4" #10 3G Blue Filter Housing with Bracket and Meter Mount ~$33
Gauge Pentek 143549:
Differential Pressure Gauge for 3G Meter Mount Housings ~$53
Green (clean) 0-6 psid; Yellow (change) 6-9 psid; Red (dirty) 9-12 psid
Tubing: 3/8" ID x 50 Ft High Pressure Braided Clear PVC Vinyl Tubing Flexible Vinyl Tube, Heavy Duty Reinforced Vinyl Hose Tubing, BPA Free and Non Toxic
Pump Shurflo 8020-513-236 Pump 15vAC Power Cord 60PSI Switch 1.6 GPM
~ $140 - $190 (https://www.toboaenergy.com $142.57)
You will want to mount this pump on a board, not in a box. Neil has another pump suggestion, but for the moment I can't find my docs on that.
Filter FlowMax HP (Watts) FPP-0.2-975-DOE 2.5” x 9.75” DOE End Cap 0.2 micron absolute
~$50 (https://www.freshwatersystems.com)
Hose Barb for filter canister: x2 Hose Barb ¾” NPT x 3/8” Barb
Hose Barb for Pump: x2 Hose Barb 3/8” NPT x 3/8” Barb (nylon or plastic not metal)
On/Off Switch for Pump: BindMaster 3-Prong Grounded On/Off Switch (for pump)
~ $9
RINSE TANK FILTER SYSTEM
Filter Canister Pentek 158116 ¼” #10 Slim Line
Filter Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” Pleated Filter, 0.35 micron nominal
Tubing: Clear PVC vinyl food grade 3/8" ID intake from tank to pump, 1/4" output to filter cannister and back to tank.
Pump Little Giant 1-AA-OM
This pump is no longer made by Little Giant but is available on the Web from vendors: one two. It was original designed as a hot water pump for drink dispensers.
Pump Wiring You will need to attach wire and plug. I used this. Westinghouse Lamp Cord w/ switch
Pump Box Cantex 513371OU Junction Box
Hose barbs intake to pump 1/4"MNPT to 3/8", Nylon; discharge from pump 1/4" FNPT to 1/4" barb, brass; intake and discharge for filter cannister 1/4" MNPT to 1/4" barb, brass. Don't forget the plumbers tape.
One more thing ...
Something not discussed is locating all this stuff for ease of use and efficient operation. To hold both tanks and their pumps, etc. I built a custom sized waterproof tray using David's design, with wood and a thick tarp fastened to the frame with rust-proof staples.
View attachment 115503
View attachment 115502
View attachment 115504
Tray in place with pump and 2nd RD for rinse tank.
I do feel a bit embarrassed as Neil (@Neil.Antin) also gave me a list of the products to buy (some that you have also so kindly listed) a month or so back for the filtered circulating system which I have marked all of the products in my internet 'bookmarks' ready to buy in the next month or two.
Thanks. The key, imo, is what filter do you want to use. That drives the pump selection and tubing. The 0.2 micron filters are a bit pricey, $75 usd, but worth it. My first has not come close to being filled after a year of use. Having the gauge on the Pentek cannister lets you monitor the filter. Good idea to buy several filters once you choose what you want. They go in and out of stock and get deleted. I have had zero issues with both filter systems.
Yes, I will order the 0.2 micron filters too as per your and Neil's suggestions / recommendations. I'm a Mechanical Building Services & HVAC Engineer so ok with filters and pumps and piping etc. along with ventilation & air conditioning.
Equipment for the circulating filtered water I will be purchasing here in the UK (as per your's and Neil's recommendations) which I have 'book marked';
www.directwaterfilters.co.uk
www.directwaterfilters.co.uk
(If I decide not to buy distilled / demin water i.e. based on usage vs cost of my DIY Ultrasonic Record Cleaner)
conservation-resources.co.uk
https://www.amazon.co.uk/GST60A12-P1J-AC-DC-Industrial-Desktop-Adaptor/dp/B013EU0AQQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3PCQCPL9ADXIG&keywords=mean%2Bwell%2Bgst60a12-p1j%2B12v%2B5%2Bamp&qid=1687380256&sprefix=MEAN%2BWELL™%2BGST60A12-P1J%2B%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-1&th=1
PVDF Ultrafiltration (UF) Membrane Cartridge
PVDF Ultrafiltration (UF) Membrane Cartridge
www.directwaterfilters.co.uk
100 GPD PURA RODI Reverse osmosis water
100 GPD PURA RODI Reverse osmosis water
www.directwaterfilters.co.uk
Dehypon - 1 Litre
Extensive tests by British textile conservators and conservation scientists led to the introduction of this detergent for the cleansing of valuable textiles. Dehypon LS54 was found to be the best all-round one-off detergent for wool and cotton. Size: 1 litre
conservation-resources.co.uk
https://www.amazon.co.uk/GST60A12-P1J-AC-DC-Industrial-Desktop-Adaptor/dp/B013EU0AQQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3PCQCPL9ADXIG&keywords=mean%2Bwell%2Bgst60a12-p1j%2B12v%2B5%2Bamp&qid=1687380256&sprefix=MEAN%2BWELL™%2BGST60A12-P1J%2B%2Caps%2C251&sr=8-1&th=1
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