tima's DIY RCM

[Kingrex]

Bummer. I sort of feared they were damaged. They are old records.

I also really like my Pink Martini - Get Happy. The last song side 2 has some crunch and you can see about the last 4 to 5 grooves are not freah like the others. Sounds like that wont get fixed.

One of the problems with stepping up ones vinyl system is you are more aware defects in the medi. It makes you more appreciate the good preasing when you have one on the platter.

On the flip side, as my vinyl improved, I also found records I thought were sonically not that good, play with a lot more life. It has expanded my library of enjoyable material I own.

 

[Kingrex]

Check that your stylus is clean.

I know this bugs you Tima. I cut a thin slice of magic eraser. Maybe 3/8 inch so its almost floppy. I lightly draw it across the needle directly forward, then just a little to the left and right. You thought I may dislodge the needle doing this. I find my needle stays spotless and that in my mind supersedes the risk. I have been doing this for a year now over 3 carts and never had an issue. Its fast, very effective and I believe safe.

These carts were analyzed by WAM and there was nothing to indicate the magic eraser is causing damage. They were just clean.

 

[tima]

I know this bugs you Tima. I cut a thin slice of magic eraser. Maybe 3/8 inch so its almost floppy. I lightly draw it across the needle directly forward, then just a little to the left and right. You thought I may dislodge the needle doing this. I find my needle stays spotless and that in my mind supersedes the risk. I have been doing this for a year now over 3 carts and never had an issue. Its fast, very effective and I believe safe.

These carts were analyzed by WAM and there was nothing to indicate the magic eraser is causing damage. They were just clean.

You were saying your records had pops and clicks -- I suggested you check that your stylus is clean - I said nothing about how to clean it. No reason to be snarky. Turns out your records were damaged.

I use magic eraser and it will clean the stylus although I dip not drag. There are reports of it loosening stylii. Also the material can break-off the eraser, adhere to the stylus, drop on a record when played. Rex it doesn't bug me what you do.

 

[Kingrex]

I wasn't being snarky. Sorry if it came off that way. I mentioned dragging the magic eraser across the needle on some other thread and I thought you were the one who was concerned about dislodging the diamond. In this thread I was only saying my needle is very clean. The noise I hear is most likely damage.

 

[Kingrex]

Is there any way the Record Doctor Clean Sweep brush would be damaging my grooves. I use a fairly fast agitation. I generally try and sweep along with the groove. but that is not easy to keep exact when brushing fairly fast. And the biggest micro bubbles occur when brush crosses over some grooves. I did try a little pushing of the brush to exert more force to get the cleaning fluid into the grooves. It makes a much smaller micro bubble doing as such.

I ask as I have a couple used records I never played. I went strait to washing since they looked bad. One is so bad its unplayable. Its almost a constant scratch. At first I thought I had a bad headphone cable. It was like an electrical contact with intermittent contact. I can see all sorts of surface damage. But admittedly, it looks more like dirt was on the record as it was put in and out of a paper sleeve. That, or it sat on a floor for months on end and saw heavy rotation.

This is the type of damage I can see.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Is there any way the Record Doctor Clean Sweep brush would be damaging my grooves. I use a fairly fast agitation. I generally try and sweep along with the groove. but that is not easy to keep exact when brushing fairly fast. And the biggest micro bubbles occur when brush crosses over some grooves. I did try a little pushing of the brush to exert more force to get the cleaning fluid into the grooves. It makes a much smaller micro bubble doing as such.

I ask as I have a couple used records I never played. I went strait to washing since they looked bad. One is so bad its unplayable. Its almost a constant scratch. At first I thought I had a bad headphone cable. It was like an electrical contact with intermittent contact. I can see all sorts of surface damage. But admittedly, it looks more like dirt was on the record as it was put in and out of a paper sleeve. That, or it sat on a floor for months on end and saw heavy rotation.

This is the type of damage I can see.

I have not seen any scratches caused by the Record Dr nylon bristle brush. However, I do not bear down with the brush - there is no need. The surface tension of the fluids used are low enough to wet all record surfaces. But I also clean some grooves with the brush parallel to the grooves and that can cross some grooves - but again no scratches. That being said, once wet, the nylon brush bristles soften. It's the nature of nylon, it absorbs water. Now if you bear down enough, the nylon handle will contact the record, but that should be obvious. Otherwise, some of those scratches begin at near the outer edge past 1/2 of the record. As a used record you have no idea how it was handled, and it could have been used in an automatic multi-play record player where the stack of records drop one at a time down and then play.

 

[Kingrex]

Is Nylon softer than vinyl?

 

[rando]

Is Nylon softer than vinyl?

In some instances it may be softer. Rarely is it gentler.

 

[tima]

Hi Neil,
Thank you for your very informative reply posting to my posting. Very much appreciated.

It seems that from your information in various reply postings to my postings and your excellent online book (which I have now read) and information from other WBF members regarding this subject on DIY ultrasonic record cleaning (in particular 'tima') that the overall conclusion I have interpreted from reading this information is for my first US RCM with quite low batches of LP cleaning at any given time (i.e. normally 1 or two increasing to possibly 5 LPs to be cleaned in a batch per day), it looks like I will buy in the UK the 'Elma Elmasonic P60H' US CM with 'The Vinyl Source' - 'The Vinyl Maid MK 11b' 5 LP loader and spinner, unless you have a another recommendation ? .

With me living 90% of my time in the UK at the moment, what would you recommend Neil for the type of water and the surfactants I should use and any other chemicals I should add to the P60H US CM (or similar US CM from an alternative you may recommend) ?

Also with only cleaning max 5 LPs in any one batch in a day, would I still need to buy and use an external filter and circulating pump and water cooling radiator etc. for the P60H (or similar US CM from an alternative you may recommend) ?

@Bonesy Jonesy,

Since this is moving away from the Degritter I am moving this to tima's DIY RCM | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com).

 

[Neil.Antin]

@Bonesy Jonesy,

You wrote:

With me living 90% of my time in the UK at the moment, what would you recommend Neil for the type of water and the surfactants I should use and any other chemicals I should add to the P60H US CM (or similar US CM from an alternative you may recommend) ?

Also with only cleaning max 5 LPs in any one batch in a day, would I still need to buy and use an external filter and circulating pump and water cooling radiator etc. for the P60H (or similar US CM from an alternative you may recommend) ?

1. If you are only cleaning 5-records/day, you will not need a radiator, and you have two options for bath management: Replace the bath everyday or filter the bath.

2. Replacing the bath everyday is not unreasonable. However, buying that much DIW is going to be cumbersome to say the least and quickly get expensive. Here is an option (that is actually cheaper than filtering) - install an RO unit with demineralizer that will produce more than you need (6-L/day) 100 GPD PURA RODI Reverse osmosis water (directwaterfilters.co.uk) and is supported by a local company. People with aquariums use these type systems. Some of the details on that website are not correct - they are not providing a remineralization filter. It should be just the RO filter and the demineralizer - Virgin Mixed Bed Di Resin (directwaterfilters.co.uk). The RO filter cartridge is replaceable - 100 GPD TLC RO Membrane (directwaterfilters.co.uk). Note that if you water pressure is low, you will need to install a booster pump. If you go down this path, talk to this company and make sure you understand all the ins/outs.

3. Pump/filter system and here are the three main components:
-Filter housing - 3/4 Inch Filter Housing (directwaterfilters.co.uk)
-Filter cartridge: 0.1-micron (nominal) filter - model SL10 PVDF Ultrafiltration (UF) Membrane Cartridge (directwaterfilters.co.uk).
-Pump: Agratech NW Ltd > Shurflo Pumps > Shurflo SLV10-AA48 12v Pump 40 PSI 3.8 Ltrs/Min (1.0 US GPM)
-You still need a 12VDC power supply for pump such as Mean Well GST60A12-P1J AC-DC Industrial Desktop Adaptor : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools with adapters for the pump power iGreely SAE Plug to DC 5.5mm x 2.1mm Female Cables with SAE Polarity Reverse and DC 8mm Adapter for Automotive RV Solar Panel 14AWG 2ft/60cm : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive and adapter to connect to your mains.
-And there are the various small house fittings and hoses are specified in the book.

4. Regardless of how you resolve the bath issue, you want to have a water TDS meter to measure the bath. - HM Digital COM-100 Waterproof EC/TDS/Temp Meter : Amazon.co.uk: Home & Kitchen. This will tell you when the bath needs to be replaced if filtering, or the demineralizer needs to be replaced.

5. For chemistry buy this 100% concentrated nonionic surfactant Dehypon - 1 Litre – Conservation Resources (UK) Ltd (conservation-resources.co.uk) and have it on hand if you want to try it. Sealed and stored in cool dry place, it will last 10 years at least.

Setting up a DIY UT and getting the most you can from it has lots of little details.

Good Luck,

Neil

 

[Neil.Antin]

@tima, Tim,
Thanks,
Neil

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

@Bonesy Jonesy,

You wrote:

With me living 90% of my time in the UK at the moment, what would you recommend Neil for the type of water and the surfactants I should use and any other chemicals I should add to the P60H US CM (or similar US CM from an alternative you may recommend) ?

Also with only cleaning max 5 LPs in any one batch in a day, would I still need to buy and use an external filter and circulating pump and water cooling radiator etc. for the P60H (or similar US CM from an alternative you may recommend) ?

1. If you are only cleaning 5-records/day, you will not need a radiator, and you have two options for bath management: Replace the bath everyday or filter the bath.

2. Replacing the bath everyday is not unreasonable. However, buying that much DIW is going to be cumbersome to say the least and quickly get expensive. Here is an option (that is actually cheaper than filtering) - install an RO unit with demineralizer that will produce more than you need (6-L/day) 100 GPD PURA RODI Reverse osmosis water (directwaterfilters.co.uk) and is supported by a local company. People with aquariums use these type systems. Some of the details on that website are not correct - they are not providing a remineralization filter. It should be just the RO filter and the demineralizer - Virgin Mixed Bed Di Resin (directwaterfilters.co.uk). The RO filter cartridge is replaceable - 100 GPD TLC RO Membrane (directwaterfilters.co.uk). Note that if you water pressure is low, you will need to install a booster pump. If you go down this path, talk to this company and make sure you understand all the ins/outs.

3. Pump/filter system and here are the three main components:
-Filter housing - 3/4 Inch Filter Housing (directwaterfilters.co.uk)
-Filter cartridge: 0.1-micron (nominal) filter - model SL10 PVDF Ultrafiltration (UF) Membrane Cartridge (directwaterfilters.co.uk).
-Pump: Agratech NW Ltd > Shurflo Pumps > Shurflo SLV10-AA48 12v Pump 40 PSI 3.8 Ltrs/Min (1.0 US GPM)
-You still need a 12VDC power supply for pump such as Mean Well GST60A12-P1J AC-DC Industrial Desktop Adaptor : Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools with adapters for the pump power iGreely SAE Plug to DC 5.5mm x 2.1mm Female Cables with SAE Polarity Reverse and DC 8mm Adapter for Automotive RV Solar Panel 14AWG 2ft/60cm : Amazon.co.uk: Automotive and adapter to connect to your mains.
-And there are the various small house fittings and hoses are specified in the book.

4. Regardless of how you resolve the bath issue, you want to have a water TDS meter to measure the bath. - HM Digital COM-100 Waterproof EC/TDS/Temp Meter : Amazon.co.uk: Home & Kitchen. This will tell you when the bath needs to be replaced if filtering, or the demineralizer needs to be replaced.

5. For chemistry buy this 100% concentrated nonionic surfactant Dehypon - 1 Litre – Conservation Resources (UK) Ltd (conservation-resources.co.uk) and have it on hand if you want to try it. Sealed and stored in cool dry place, it will last 10 years at least.

Setting up a DIY UT and getting the most you can from it has lots of little details.

Good Luck,

Neil

Thank you Neil for your speedy reply with a lot of very important information and 'food for thought'. Very much appreciated, especially knowing the time it has taken you in writing up this information. Very kind of you.

I forgot to say that the max 5 LPs in a day won't be for every day. It will be more like 5 LPs every 3 days to one week (depending on how many I have bought in a particular week).
Therefore, before I purchase any external filters, pumps etc. I will calculate how much distilled water I will most probably use and see how many containers of distilled water I would need to by per month. I have an inclination, it won't cost too much for my very low volume of record cleaning. Please also note that the LPs will go into the US CM pretty clean from using the Keith Monks RCM first for the pre-clean and main clean, with the US CM being used as a final wash / kind of 'polishing' clean, and then back on the KM RCM for final rinse with distilled water.

 

[Neil.Antin]

and then back on the KM RCM for final rinse with distilled water.

With you following the same process that @Bill Hart uses, keeping the bath meticulously clean is not as important. Bill (@Bill Hart) how many records do you clean with KLAudio before you refresh the bath?

@Bonesy Jonesy you can follow what Bill does, and since the KLAudio is 2.5L and the Elmasonic is 6L, you should be able to clean at least 50% more records; all depends on your process with the KM. I would still recommend you buy the TDS meter since you can measure the bath and determine some measured quality of the DIW. General recommendation as to when to refresh, assuming the bath is still reasonably clear, is when the TDS meter reads 5-10 ppm.

Aside from what soluble detritus may come off the record, DIW absorbs CO2 out of the air (and of course, there is no lack of that these days - bad joke) and in the water it forms carbonic acid which will cause the TDS to increase. The purer the DIW, the greater its affinity to absorb CO2.

Good Luck,
Neil

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

With you following the same process that @Bill Hart uses, keeping the bath meticulously clean is not as important. Bill (@Bill Hart) how many records do you clean with KLAudio before you refresh the bath?

@Bonesy Jonesy you can follow what Bill does, and since the KLAudio is 2.5L and the Elmasonic is 6L, you should be able to clean at least 50% more records; all depends on your process with the KM. I would still recommend you buy the TDS meter since you can measure the bath and determine some measured quality of the DIW. General recommendation as to when to refresh, assuming the bath is still reasonably clear, is when the TDS meter reads 5-10 ppm.

Aside from what soluble detritus may come off the record, DIW absorbs CO2 out of the air (and of course, there is no lack of that these days - bad joke) and in the water it forms carbonic acid which will cause the TDS to increase. The purer the DIW, the greater its affinity to absorb CO2.

Good Luck,
Neil

Thank you Neil. Very much appreciated.

Will let you know how I get on when I have purchased (hopefully within the next few weeks) and used the Elma Elmasonic P60H US CM and the 'The Vinyl Source' - 'The Vinyl Maid MK 11b' LP loader and spinner.

 

[tima]

Tim;

The alternate 2-3 records at once is a P60 (6L) Elmasonic PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com) with Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaner - The Vinyl Maid (thevinylsource.co.uk) is a nice smaller (and less expensive) setup. It has all the same functions as your P120 just a smaller tank, and the UK made Viny Maid uses a magnetic coupling allowing records dry while other records are being cleaned - like the old VinylStack (USA) unit that is no longer being manufactured.

Take care,
Neil

Thanks Neil for the further informatio about the Vinyl Maid.

Thinking about using it ... I'm guessing one sits it on its magnetic coupler with the spindle pointing up, then slide the discs and records on appropriately. Ideally it wants to sit on a steady metal surface to which the magnet attaches, otherwise it is too easy to tip over. Something similar for drying, where the records are held at an angle rather than parallel to the base.

Have you heard from people using the VM for some time?

Tim,

I am not familiar with any number of people using the Viny Maid. I noticed it mentioned on a site and investigated. Its concept is similar to the Vinyl Stack Ultra Sonic Spin Kit The Vinyl Stack Ultrasonic Spin Kit - A quick look at ultra-coolness! - YouTube that many people use, but no longer manufactured. As far as how to assemble, it has a flat base, so placing it on a rubber pad should prevent it from slipping or a quick DIY with a base & the magnet motor hub (buy separate) would work even better.

Take care,
Neil

Tim:

Here is the manual - The Vinyl Maid Mk II instruction (thevinylsource.co.uk). The record stack attaches to the motor drive by a magnetic coupling. Simply detach (simply pull apart) the record stack from the motor drive and attach another - they provide two kits.

Is the Vinyl Maid built to the same standards as the Kuzma no, but that is reflected in the price, and both appear to be using a high torque gear-drive motor at similar speeds.

Vinyl Records Cleaner/Washing Machine (thevinylsource.co.uk) - £320.00
KUZMA RD Ultrasonic Record Cleaning kit (mackenziehifi.com) - £1,250.00

Take care,
Neil

It seems that from your information in various reply postings to my postings and your excellent online book (which I have now read) and information from other WBF members regarding this subject on DIY ultrasonic record cleaning (in particular 'tima') that the overall conclusion I have interpreted from reading this information is for my first US RCM with quite low batches of LP cleaning at any given time (i.e. normally 1 or two increasing to possibly 5 LPs to be cleaned in a batch per day), it looks like I will buy in the UK the 'Elma Elmasonic P60H' US CM with 'The Vinyl Source' - 'The Vinyl Maid MK 11b' 5 LP loader and spinner, unless you have a another recommendation ? .

I'd like to dig a bit further into the Vinyl Maid + Elmasonic P60 combination based on my experience with the Kuzma RD and Elmasonic P120. At this point I consider the VM + P60 combo as ... how shall I say this ... as hypothetical or theoretical. Why? We have no accounts from end-users of this combinations. That doesn't mean there are or are not such end-users, only we have not heard from anyone using it -- at least on this forum. Show me 5-10 end-users with 6 months experience with the VM+P60 and maybe we can all be better informed.

I suggest you read this post with the VM PDF manual open so you can see the photos of the machine to follow what I"m going to describe.

I am curious about the ergonomics of the VM+P60 combo.

I"m not suggesting the VM will not fit the P60. The tank meets the minimum dimensional requirements of the VM (300mm H x 120mm W x 150mm D) tank, but it sure can not be any smaller. I'm not saying the combination can or can not work. I want to think about / dig in to practical use

What I've learned using my own system is the relatively tight tolerances involved in physically positioning a tank with a rotisserie. Both the Elma units (P60 & P120) measure internal width at 300mm which is ~11.8 inches, with a vinyl record being 12" in width. For any rotisserie: 1) the spindle going through the record hole must sit above the rim of the tank. 2) Enough clearance is needed at the records edge/perimeter in the tank to clear the sides of the tank sufficient to wet the record to the edge of its runout area. The amount of runout varies record to record.

From pictures of the Vinyl Maid, the post holding its motor and magnetic coupler attaches to a plexiglass base and the UT sits on that base. That means a tank full of water must be exactly positioned relative to the motor / spindle, because once in position the tank, base and motor post are wedded to one another by the weight of the filled tank. Bear with me a bit longer ...

Given the above, I'd say forget about mounting 5 records, I believe the tolerances are too tight to yield the necessary space between the records edge and the two sidewalls of the tank to allow the records to spin freely. I'd say you want 1/16th of an inch between the record edge and a sidewall. And you want at least more than 1-inch between the records and between the end records and the front-rear tank walls. Elma tank corners are rounded. Note -- no picture on th VM Web site shows 5 records on its spindle in the tank, the max shown is 4.

Now. think about a VM spindle with a record load. (Loading it is an issue in itself that I can discuss in another post.) How will you hold the record loaded spindle? The spindle's screw-on knob is probably not big enough to hold it securely in with one hand so you'll hold the magnetic coupler with your other hand. With the motor unit at actual wash height you need to lower the records into the tank by hand and attach the spindle to the motor's magentic coupling. Again, the more records the more careful you need to be in doing this.

I"m thinking the VM motor unit needs to be raised to its full height for attaching the record holder, then lower the records into the tank. Loosen the post-height knob, raise the post, tighten the post-height knob to lock it in place. Then hold the records with the knob on the spindle, use the other hand to guide the magnetic couplings together. Still holding the spindle knob release the post-height knob and lower the records into the tank to the correct height to cover the groove area, then tighten the post height knob to lock the post in place. It would be good to examine the post height tightening knob to see how well it works and will it stand up over time to repeated tightening.

It may be possible to attach the magnetically coupled spindle to the fully raised post, and load records and separator discs in that position. What is unknown is the strength of the magnetic coupling. Is it strong enough such that it will not detach from the post by the slight jiggling that will occur while loading the spindle? Maybe that could work but I'd probably feel more secure loading the spindle while it is off the post.

Removal of the spindle of records is the reverse. Hold the spindle knob with one hand, release the post height knob with the other, raise the records out of the tank, tighten the post height knob, break the magnetic coupling to release the spindle from the post. If you will air dry the records and you're using only a single spindle, you could leave the records attached to the post and let them dry in place.

I'm thinking it could be much easier to go through the above with 2-3 records on the spindle. In Neil's suggestion of the P60+VM combination he likewise references using it for 2-3 records. For now I'm thinking it is an ergonomic over-reach each to assume cleaning 5 records with a P60 size tank. What do you think?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

I'd like to dig a bit further into the Vinyl Maid + Elmasonic P60 combination based on my experience with the Kuzma RD and Elmasonic P120. At this point I consider the VM + P60 combo as ... how shall I say this ... as hypothetical or theoretical. Why? We have no accounts from end-users of this combinations. That doesn't mean there are or are not such end-users, only we have not heard from anyone using it -- at least on this forum. Show me 5-10 end-users with 6 months experience with the VM+P60 and maybe we can all be better informed.

I suggest you read this post with the VM PDF manual open so you can see the photos of the machine to follow what I"m going to describe.

I am curious about the ergonomics of the VM+P60 combo.

I"m not suggesting the VM will not fit the P60. The tank meets the minimum dimensional requirements of the VM (300mm H x 120mm W x 150mm D) tank, but it sure can not be any smaller. I'm not saying the combination can or can not work. I want to think about / dig in to practical use

What I've learned using my own system is the relatively tight tolerances involved in physically positioning a tank with a rotisserie. Both the Elma units (P60 & P120) measure internal width at 300mm which is ~11.8 inches, with a vinyl record being 12" in width. For any rotisserie: 1) the spindle going through the record hole must sit above the rim of the tank. 2) Enough clearance is needed at the records edge/perimeter in the tank to clear the sides of the tank sufficient to wet the record to the edge of its runout area. The amount of runout varies record to record.

From pictures of the Vinyl Maid, the post holding its motor and magnetic coupler attaches to a plexiglass base and the UT sits on that base. That means a tank full of water must be exactly positioned relative to the motor / spindle, because once in position the tank, base and motor post are wedded to one another by the weight of the filled tank. Bear with me a bit longer ...

Given the above, I'd say forget about mounting 5 records, I believe the tolerances are too tight to yield the necessary space between the records edge and the two sidewalls of the tank to allow the records to spin freely. I'd say you want 1/16th of an inch between the record edge and a sidewall. And you want at least more than 1-inch between the records and between the end records and the front-rear tank walls. Elma tank corners are rounded. Note -- no picture on th VM Web site shows 5 records on its spindle in the tank, the max shown is 4.

Now. think about a VM spindle with a record load. (Loading it is an issue in itself that I can discuss in another post.) How will you hold the record loaded spindle? The spindle's screw-on knob is probably not big enough to hold it securely in with one hand so you'll hold the magnetic coupler with your other hand. With the motor unit at actual wash height you need to lower the records into the tank by hand and attach the spindle to the motor's magentic coupling. Again, the more records the more careful you need to be in doing this.

I"m thinking the VM motor unit needs to be raised to its full height for attaching the record holder, then lower the records into the tank. Loosen the post-height knob, raise the post, tighten the post-height knob to lock it in place. Then hold the records with the knob on the spindle, use the other hand to guide the magnetic couplings together. Still holding the spindle knob release the post-height knob and lower the records into the tank to the correct height to cover the groove area, then tighten the post height knob to lock the post in place. It would be good to examine the post height tightening knob to see how well it works and will it stand up over time to repeated tightening.

It may be possible to attach the magnetically coupled spindle to the fully raised post, and load records and separator discs in that position. What is unknown is the strength of the magnetic coupling. Is it strong enough such that it will not detach from the post by the slight jiggling that will occur while loading the spindle? Maybe that could work but I'd probably feel more secure loading the spindle while it is off the post.

Removal of the spindle of records is the reverse. Hold the spindle knob with one hand, release the post height knob with the other, raise the records out of the tank, tighten the post height knob, break the magnetic coupling to release the spindle from the post. If you will air dry the records and you're using only a single spindle, you could leave the records attached to the post and let them dry in place.

I'm thinking it could be much easier to go through the above with 2-3 records on the spindle. In Neil's suggestion of the P60+VM combination he likewise references using it for 2-3 records. For now I'm thinking it is an ergonomic over-reach each to assume cleaning 5 records with a P60 size tank. What do you think?

Hi 'tima',
Wow what a great and very informative and detailed post you have written regarding the use of the 'The Vinyl Maid MK 11b' LP loader and spinner. and Elmasonic P60 H US CM combination. Very much appreciated.

TBH, I haven't looked into the details of the Vinyl Maid yet i.e. reading the manual in detail as I was assuming that the Elmasonic P60 H US CM with the 'The Vinyl Maid MK 11b' was a semi-proven system, with not putting any thought into thinking how many people have this Record Cleaning System (RCS) and have experiences of using it, servicing it etc. over a reasonable period of time.

I was considering the Kuzma Ultrasonic Record Cleaning Kit with the Elmasonic P120 H US CM, however Neil's suggestion to look at the P60 H and Vinyl Maid (as I won't be cleaning high volumes of LPs in a short space of time (that the Kuzma Kit and P120 H can handle), i.e. I will be cleaning max 5 LPs in a day (to US clean back log of approx. 500 LPs that have already been cleaned with my Keith Monks Classic RCM) and after this back log catch-up will most probably be cleaning anything from 1 to 5 LPs per day over a 2 day weekend as and when I buy new or 2nd hand records. Also the P60 H with Vinyl Maid is approx. 50% of the cost of the Kuzma kit and P120 H !

I could live with only being able to clean say max three records at any one time with the Vinyl Maid instead of five.

However, the other side of the coin, with this comparison, as you mentioned 'tima' is the Kuzma Kit with the Elmasonic P120 H is a pretty proven design as a US RCM with the people that have used it over a respectable period of time, plus knowing that the Kuzma Kit will be well engineered, designed and built item (like all of Kuzma's products - as I well know from my own experiences), and the Elmasonic P120 H is also a well engineered, designed and built item.

So from where I am standing at the moment, I either pay the extra cost (approx. £1,500) and go for the Kuzma Kit and Elmasonic P120 H knowing I have a very well built and reliable US RCM that can easily handle 5 LPs at any one time (believe it can handle 10 LPs yes ???) that will last me for quite a long time (5+ years), or go for the Elmasonic P60 H (which I'm guessing will also last me a long time like the P120 H would) with the Vinyl Maid that may not last as long as the Kuzma Kit (say 18 months to two years - although I could buy three / four Vinyl Maids for the price of the Kuzma kit) with the inconvenience that can only handle say max three LPs at any one time.

I must admit though, when I saw the YouTube video yesterday of the new KLAudio US RCM with the LP Auto Loader and Acoustic Chamber, I was pretty impressed ! However the total cost of this amazing looking US RCM system (US$12+k) also made me gulp and brought me back down to earth with a bump lol !

 

[tima]

So from where I am standing at the moment, I either pay the extra cost (approx. £1,500) and go for the Kuzma Kit and Elmasonic P120 H knowing I have a very well built and reliable US RCM that can easily handle 5 LPs at any one time (believe it can handle 10 LPs yes ???) that will last me for quite a long time (5+ years), or go for the Elmasonic P60 H (which I'm guessing will also last me a long time like the P120 H would) with the Vinyl Maid that may not last as long as the Kuzma Kit (say 18 months to two years - although I could buy three / four Vinyl Maids for the price of the Kuzma kit) with the inconvenience that can only handle say max three LPs at any one time.

Wrt your question, the Elma P120 + Kuzma RD can reasonably do 5 records at a time, using 2 spacers between the records. You can use 1 spacer between the records and wash more at once, but I do not do that because I believe 1 spacer does not offer enough space between the records for effective cleaning. 1 Kuzma spacer = ~14mm or .055 inches. I'm confident Neil has thoughts on the space needed between records.

Another option is pairing the Elma P60 with the Kuzma RD. You'd still be at ~3 records at a time. You save the cost difference between the P120 and P60.

Granted the VM is less expensive than the Kuzma RD; I see that as its sole virtue. I believe the RD is the better buy given that price difference. My longish thought-experiment post above about the VM was to walk through about using the VM based on what I know from loading and unloading records with the RD and adjusting the RD to mate with the P120. Based on my thought-experiment I imagine the VM is awkward and less secure to use -- this is my personal opinion in the absence of any real world reports. This is about the manual handling of records in the cleaning procedure, which imo is as much if not more of a concern as any aspect of cleaning records.

The other problematic aspect of using the VM I alluded to has to do with mounting and unmounting records from its spindle and using the VM record holder in general. I load records on the Kuzma spindle the same way I do when putting a record on a turntable - with the spindle pointing straight up -- I'm used to that and comfortable with it. Imagine putting the VM record holder on a flat surface, spindle pointing up. It can sit like that but I imagine it is not a stable platform for loading because the magnetic coupler base is small and round. Same for unloading. You will be holding the record by its edges with both hand with nothing to hold or stabilize the record holder. Same for unloading.

The RD includes a very heavy base for holding its spindle straight up for loading and unloading. It also allows holding the spindle at a 45-degree angle for record drying. I have two bases, two spindles, and two sets of spacers. This lets me do two spindles worth of cleaning back to back. I prepare one spindle, put it on the RD (by just laying it in two notches that support both ends of the spindle.) Then I load the second spindle with records. When I remove the first spindle from my wash tank and move it to my rinse tank it is simple to do. I take the second spindle off of its holder and mount it in the wash tank, so I'm doin a wash cycle for it while the first spindle is rinsing. When the first spindle is done rinsing I put it back on its base at 45-degree angle for drying.

If you take the VM spindle off its coupling it can only sit vertically with its records parallel to whatever it is sitting on. There is no opportunity for water to run off the records in that position because they are flat.

I could rattle on in what is already a tortured post about the step by step process. You can do the same walk-through for yourself asking yourself how do I use the VM spindle and hold my hands at each step to manipulate the records.

 

[Bill Hart]

With you following the same process that @Bill Hart uses, keeping the bath meticulously clean is not as important. Bill (@Bill Hart) how many records do you clean with KLAudio before you refresh the bath?

@Bonesy Jonesy you can follow what Bill does, and since the KLAudio is 2.5L and the Elmasonic is 6L, you should be able to clean at least 50% more records; all depends on your process with the KM. I would still recommend you buy the TDS meter since you can measure the bath and determine some measured quality of the DIW. General recommendation as to when to refresh, assuming the bath is still reasonably clear, is when the TDS meter reads 5-10 ppm.

Aside from what soluble detritus may come off the record, DIW absorbs CO2 out of the air (and of course, there is no lack of that these days - bad joke) and in the water it forms carbonic acid which will cause the TDS to increase. The purer the DIW, the greater its affinity to absorb CO2.

Good Luck,
Neil

At this point, I dump bath water every 20 records, sometimes more frequently.
1.I wonder if DIY/Elma is even worth the trouble given lightness of use by @ Bonesy . I haven't owned the Degritter, I guess the question is long term durability- the KL I have is now probably what, near 8 years old and life expectations for these machines are not forever. (Mine is later production, has the extra cooling but eliminated the toggle, I could place it more precisely). I did run a fair amount of records through it once upon a time, but now, I'm not buying or cleaning as much.
2. I also wonder since Bonesy is doing a pre-clean and rinse on the Monks, whether to bother with a surfactant/additive in the US machine since the challenge is then getting it off. My best removal method, as mentioned is a post US rinse/vacuum on the Monks which adds another step/platter mat swaps, etc.
3. Maybe I'm getting tired and lazy (not really) but Bonesy is not going solely US for cleaning. His primary cleaning is the Monks and the US is adding an additional dimension. Will the Elma be more durable/long-lived? Maybe. I do like the so-called medical/industrial quality of the thing, but it seems like DeGritter is supporting the machines (that's true until stuff happens- look at Lamm or ARC - hopefully both are back up and running).
4. This isn't meant to stir controversy over "best" results, but to me, part of the equation as you, Neil, point out is a method is only good if you use the thing and simplification may be justified here. I pose that as a question rather than a conclusion.

 

[Neil.Antin]

From pictures of the Vinyl Maid, the post holding its motor and magnetic coupler attaches to a plexiglass base and the UT sits on that base. That means a tank full of water must be exactly positioned relative to the motor / spindle, because once in position the tank, base and motor post are wedded to one another by the weight of the filled tank. Bear with me a bit longer ...

Tim:

Not sure you noticed, but the motor slides up and down secured in-place with a knurled knob shown on Page 4 of 7 of the Viny Maid manual, it's the knob below the motor assembly. Now the Vinyl Maid manual says nothing about this in the setup but at the end Step 8 - Drying - Detach the record holder from the machine, if the space inside the ultrasonic cleaner doesn’t allow to remove the holder freely then lift the holder using the knob at the rear of the main pillar.

As far as assembly goes, as I previously addressed, a simple angled holder like what Kuzma does - but with a Vinyl Maid motor coupling attached would provide a very stable method of assembly and disassembly. If @Bonesy Jonesy was to consider the Vinyl Maid he should contact the manufacture - The Vinyl Source Ltd - and see if they could construct this - it is simple. The USA VinylStack had a similar device (with magnetic coupling) and is shown in this video (I previously referenced) at time 2:57

which oh by the way I have and of course it makes record assembly/disassembly very easy with their label protector but again VinylStack is gone.

Take care,
Neil

Edit-PS/Yes, I would not recommend more than 4-records, with 3-records more like it to prevent overlading the bath. The ideal spacing for 37-kHz is 40-mm (wavelength) but about 1" (25.4-mm) is a good general use. FYI - You have a typo 14-mm = 0.55" (damn decimal points)

 

[Neil.Antin]

2. I also wonder since Bonesy is doing a pre-clean and rinse on the Monks, whether to bother with a surfactant/additive in the US machine since the challenge is then getting it off. My best removal method, as mentioned is a post US rinse/vacuum on the Monks which adds another step/platter mat swaps, etc.

Bill:

Just to be clear, I recommended @Bonesy Jonesy purchase Dehypon - 1 Litre – Conservation Resources (UK) Ltd (conservation-resources.co.uk) because its cheap and its available; and in the UK you are never sure how long it will be available. Additionally, Dehypon LS54 is an extremely powerful nonionic surfactant. For a 6-L liter tank, 3-4 drops is all that is required to lower the surface tension of water by about 50% enough to easily wet the record and improve cleaning efficiency and improve draining/dry because the water sheets off of record versus leaving drops. An at 3--4 drops (<0.2-ml), the concentration in the tank (6000-ml) is about 30 ppm, and at this very, very low concentration is easily rinsed.

But, at ~30-ppm there is not detergency - just wetting and with a good pre-clean followed by ultrasonics, followed by a rinse, wetting is all you should need. To get detergency you need a higher concentration and now issues with rinsing can arise depending on the chemistry and the concentration. But with the KM, there is always the option to 'clean' with UT using a higher surfactant concentration and then rinse/dry with the KM. In this case, the Elmasonic P-series that is dual frequency and not chemistry limited is head and shoulders above the Degritter and the KLAudio. It all depends on what you are cleaning and how much control and flexibility you want with your cleaning process.

3. Maybe I'm getting tired and lazy (not really) but Bonesy is not going solely US for cleaning. His primary cleaning is the Monks and the US is adding an additional dimension. Will the Elma be more durable/long-lived? Maybe. I do like the so-called medical/industrial quality of the thing, but it seems like DeGritter is supporting the machines

If you read this post - https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/degritter-mark-ii.35816/post-887217, I tried to summarize the pro's and con's of the various machines. But as you eluded in your post, and as I always say, the Best Cleaning Process is the One Best for You.

Take care,

Neil