tima's DIY RCM

[Neil.Antin]

Hi All,

Thanks to you, especially tima and Neil, my first US tank is working smoothly! Now, I am getting a second tank to separate the cleaning and rinsing. I have found this 10L Chinese made tank with 40 / 120 kHz due frequencies, and heating capability, at a reasonable price. As I understand the Degritter uses 120 kHz, and suppose to clean very nicely, I am thinking this tank should be good. However, before I place the order, I would like to double check with you guys whether you see any potential down side with this?

I plan to clean with this 40/120 kHz tank and rinse with the 40kHz tank.

Thanks in advance!

Michael

Michael:

The lower the ultrasonic frequency, the larger the cavitation bubble that is created. A 40 kHz UCM will produce bubbles about 75 microns diameter. These are not going to get into the record groove. But the larger bubble can produce more energy when it collapses/implodes (cavitation) so there is fluid agitation around the collapsing event that can provide cleaning. A 120 kHz UCM will produce bubbles about 20 microns (and more of them) and these can get into the groove but being smaller the bubble cannot collapse as violently. How violently the bubble collapse is determined by the amount of power provided by the ultrasonic transducers, and the higher the frequency the more power that is required.

The Degritter is 120 kHz but is also 300W into only a 1.4-L tank. It's a powerful machine but its focus is really getting that final layer of really small particles. The lower frequency 35-40 kHz UCM are good for the record surface and the big stuff. So the Elmasonic P-series units with 35/80-kHz and 300-watts power are a good balance to get the big stuff with the 35-kHz and final clean with the 80-kHz and 300W+ can do the job which is what @tima and @dminches use.

What are the specs for the 40/120-kHz machine? If its a fairly large tank without a lot of power, do not kid yourself to think it clean at 120-kHz anywhere close to the Degritter.

Neil

 

[thekong]

Hi Neil,

The model I am considering is 360W into a 10L tank. Do you think that is sufficient?

Thanks,

Michael

 

[Neil.Antin]

BitHi Neil,

The model I am considering is 360W into a 10L tank. Do you think that is sufficient?

Thanks,

Michael

Michael,

Maybe. 360W in a 10-L tank is a fair amount of power; but how well it will work all depends on design and execution. Is the power rating peak power or average power? The Elmasonic P120H says 330W, but it also states a peak ultrasonic power of 1320W - PP_Elmasonic_P120H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com). This is a 10-L Zenith (made in USA) industrial unit that operates 40/80 kHz simultaneously specifying 600W peak and 300W average. But for these low-cost units, there is not a lot of details, so you get what you get and for that reason I can make no definitive assessment or recommendation.

Neil

 

[thekong]

Thanks Neil, I probably will take the chance then. Worst come to worst, I will just use the 40 kHz mode.

Thanks again,

Michael

 

[Kingrex]

I broke down and bought a Kirmuss record restore machine. I'm sure its going to be a total pain and take forever, but I need to start cleaning. I am looking at a Zero Water to make my own. I just cleaned a space in my basement. Its pretty dusty down there. But the only space I really have. I actually have a section where I plumbed hot and cold water and have a floor drain. I could move some stuff around to make a space.

 

[tima]

I broke down and bought a Kirmuss record restore machine. I'm sure its going to be a total pain and take forever, but I need to start cleaning. I am looking at a Zero Water to make my own. I just cleaned a space in my basement. Its pretty dusty down there. But the only space I really have. I actually have a section where I plumbed hot and cold water and have a floor drain. I could move some stuff around to make a space

Sounds like steps forward -- that's good. Would you share why you chose Kirmuss?

 

[Kingrex]

A couple reasons. I meet Charles and Eric at a couple shows. They are in the pit areas with me. They are good people and have a solid product.

More important, as I worked through this thread in the past, my understanding from Neil was the manual agitation and resulting foam was what caused the debris to curl at the edges and lift off the record surface. And that an appropriate ultrasonc will penetrate the groove and drive debris out. The Kirmuss machine does both.

Would I rather take 5 records from 1 bath to the next, then rinse and put away. Sure. I'm not happy about the amount of manual labor involved. But I believe the Kirmuss process is superior to other one step machines where you drop a record in and take it out.

And the price was reasonable for a good tank with a drive system to hold and spin the record.

Maybe it has given me another excuse to rework my garage/shop. I am spending more on storage to organize the space and make room to work than the record cleaner itself.

Going to get the Zero Water today.
Rex

 

[tima]

A couple reasons. I meet Charles and Eric at a couple shows. They are in the pit areas with me. They are good people and have a solid product.

More important, as I worked through this thread in the past, my understanding from Neil was the manual agitation and resulting foam was what caused the debris to curl at the edges and lift off the record surface. And that an appropriate ultrasonc will penetrate the groove and drive debris out. The Kirmuss machine does both.

Would I rather take 5 records from 1 bath to the next, then rinse and put away. Sure. I'm not happy about the amount of manual labor involved. But I believe the Kirmuss process is superior to other one step machines where you drop a record in and take it out.

And the price was reasonable for a good tank with a drive system to hold and spin the record.

Maybe it has given me another excuse to rework my garage/shop. I am spending more on storage to organize the space and make room to work than the record cleaner itself.

Going to get the Zero Water today.
Rex

That's good. Stay in touch with your progress and what you learn.

 

[Kingrex]

I also like its a one box kit. Just add water. It does take time. I did 2 records. Then watched a few of Kirmuss video. I'm going to change my process a little.

He uses a clean spray as his last step. I might use my spin clean with deionized water.

He leaves a shot of spray on at the end saying the alcohol is for molf. I don't see that after its evaporated. And does alchohol even kill mold. I use 12% H2O2 in my shower and other places. That is the only substance I have found to kill black mold.

No I do not use it on records.

 

[Kingrex]

And watching his video, he may have a point about spacing the records and frequency/power of units. It appears you can damage a record in an ultrasonic if its set up wrong.

 

[Kingrex]

I just bought a 10 pack of the

Kinetronics Anti-Static Microfiber Cloth​

I already used my dirty hands on the cloths I got with the system. I didnt remember to glove up. I got a 10 pack because the records do have a bit of water to dry out of the grooves when complete.

I tried my vacuum for kicks. It did not seem to do much.

 

[Neil.Antin]

I just bought a 10 pack of the

Kinetronics Anti-Static Microfiber Cloth​

I already used my dirty hands on the cloths I got with the system. I didnt remember to glove up. I got a 10 pack because the records do have a bit of water to dry out of the grooves when complete.

I tried my vacuum for kicks. It did not seem to do much.

Kingex:

The Kinetronics Tiger Cloth anti-static microfiber cloth is not very absorbent. When I dry records, I use a three-step process as follows:

Step 1: Using the Super Cool™ PVA Cleanroom Sponge (Part #335-0090, Super PVA Sponge Products (super-cool-products.com) following the arc of the record grooves, lightly wipe the surface to remove most water. Excess pressure may produce a squeaking sound similar to wiping a mirror. I am not trying to dry the record with the sponge, just remove the bulk-water.

Note: Read the use instructions that come with the Super Cool™ Polyvinyl-Alcohol (PVA) Cleanroom Sponge. This sponge is delivered moist in a plastic package. If allowed to dry, the sponge will become very hard, but as specified in the instructions will resoften when rinsed with DIW. The Super Cool™ PVA Cleanroom Sponge should be able to dry about 3 records before requiring a squeeze to expel excess DIW moisture. The PVA sponge is quite robust and can be wrung-out without damage. Lint-free microfiber cloths are good for drying your hands and can be used to absorb water from the PVA sponge. Note that the PVA sponge is good for about 6-12 months. Using only with gloved hands extends life since body oils and detritus are not transferred to the sponge allowing mold to form. After use, squeeze/ring excess water from PVA sponge and store moist in its plastic container.

Step 2: Using the Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static cloth, with very little pressure, final dry the record in a circular motion after which there should be very little moisture left and the surface will be free of static charge. The Kinetronics™ Tiger anti-static cloth is mostly lint-free, but the cloth edges are not finished or sealed, so some lint may be produced during use. Avoid exposing the cloth edges to the record. I am not trying too completely dry the record. I am using the Kinetronics cloth to spread-out any remaining water to just a thin film that will air dry very quickly. I can dry 6-records & the Kinetronics cloth is never actually wet.

Step 3: Place record in a drying (dish) rack. It should be completely dry in 3-5 minutes.

One item to understand is that with my manual cleaning procedure using a record label protector, the record label protector provides me with an easy way to handle the record. With the Kirmuss unit when you remove the record from the spinner, you are handling the record. However, you could easily make a record drying stand using a 1/4-20 threaded nylon rod and simple wood bookend (two pieces of wood at 90degrees). If you flip the bookend so it's now a triangle with the 1/4-20 rod at 45degrees and with a round plastic spacer (to keep the record off the wood) it should allow you to dry the record w/o your hands holding the record.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Take care and best wishes for the New Year
Neil

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks Neil. Good info.

I pulled out that spin clean I bought a while back. That works well to clean the wash water off the record.
I wore gloves the second batch. I don't seem to end up touching the record. I only touch the edges. Same as when I handle the record to put it on and off the TT.

By the way, my tank fluid says its about 3 ppm of sediment after 4 old records and 6 new records. Is it time to change the water? I thought I read 5 ppm was the tipping point.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Thanks Neil. Good info.

I pulled out that spin clean I bought a while back. That works well to clean the wash water off the record.
I wore gloves the second batch. I don't seem to end up touching the record. I only touch the edges. Same as when I handle the record to put it on and off the TT.

By the way, my tank fluid says its about 3 ppm of sediment after 4 old records and 6 new records. Is it time to change the water? I thought I read 5 ppm was the tipping point.

5-10 ppm is safe.

 

[Kingrex]

What about using a cloth like the lint free painter cloth from Home Depot. I was using this today to knock the heavy drops off between wash cycles and after the spin clean before I dried with the micro fiber cloth. Is there a chance of damage to the record. Am I making a mess of the record.

Intex 11 in. W x 10 in. L Natural Fiber Painter's Rags (300-Count) NW-00255-300W - The Home Depot

Intex Cloth-Like Rags are an advanced disposable wiping cloth engineered to be three times stronger than paper shop towels. Use for all your hand, surface or tool cleaning needs. Holds up even wet.

www.homedepot.com

FWIW, My records are incredibly clean sounding. There seems to be a layer of haze that is gone. I may have a little tick here or there. But there is something that has changed in the whole presentation. Its clean is the best way to describe it. Surface noise is much lower. I am sold on Ultrasonic to clean a record.

 

[Neil.Antin]

What about using a cloth like the lint free painter cloth from Home Depot. I was using this today to knock the heavy drops off between wash cycles and after the spin clean before I dried with the micro fiber cloth. Is there a chance of damage to the record. Am I making a mess of the record.

Intex 11 in. W x 10 in. L Natural Fiber Painter's Rags (300-Count) NW-00255-300W - The Home Depot

Intex Cloth-Like Rags are an advanced disposable wiping cloth engineered to be three times stronger than paper shop towels. Use for all your hand, surface or tool cleaning needs. Holds up even wet.

www.homedepot.com

FWIW, My records are incredibly clean sounding. There seems to be a layer of haze that is gone. I may have a little tick here or there. But there is something that has changed in the whole presentation. Its clean is the best way to describe it. Surface noise is much lower. I am sold on Ultrasonic to clean a record.

As far as other lint-free cloths, there is quite a bit of latitude of what is called lint-free cloth. Long story short, I take many of these marketing claims with a grain of salt. Just do not bear down on the record so there is little risk of the cloth shedding/shredding. Final dry with the Kinetronics should pick up lint that may be left. When using the Kinetronics cloth, periodically shake out the cloth which will dislodge lint/particles it may pick up. The Kinetronics cloth being anti-static will not hold on to lint/particles.

What any good precision cleaning process (be it ultrasonic or manual) is going to do is to remove the very thin soil-films and particulate that allows the stylus to track closer to the actual groove modulations and this is especially evident at the higher frequencies which are reproduced by the side-wall ridges. This higher frequency info is what reproduces the air (space between) and the soundstage providing that see-through experience. Once you've actually heard it, there is no going back.

 

[tima]

I am sold on Ultrasonic to clean a record.

+1

To add to Neil's helpful information on manual drying, from what my experience has taught me: find a technique for manually handling records that works for you. The more hands on, the more potential risk.

 

[Kingrex]

Once you've actually heard it, there is no going back.

Absolutely true. I never believed a new record is as hindered by the release agents as I am hearing from the records I cleaned.

 

[Kingrex]

+1

To add to Neil's helpful information on manual drying, from what my experience has taught me: find a technique for manually handling records that works for you. The more hands on, the more potential risk.

I never touch the groove. I put fingers on the label and the edge of the rim. But I get your point. I need to get my drying spindle set up.

I do wish I could put 5 records in a spindle then move from tank to tank and to dry. It takes 16 minutes to do 2 records with the Kirmuss. And your there the whole time. No fiddling around on other projects as the batch runs. You stagger the records so your brushing one while the other is in the bath. Its a bit of a walk by and have 15 minutes, wash a couple.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Absolutely true. I never believed a new record is as hindered by the release agents as I am hearing from the records I cleaned.

There is no 'release agent' residue on a well pressed record - that nonsense is urban legend. Think about it for a moment, if there was a separate release agent what's it doing to the stamper? If you watch a record press process video, there is no time to apply any release agent and time to clean the stamper. The composition of a vinyl record is quite complex but it's all about a synergistic effect, and the RCA Patent describes what is most likely the appropriate composition - 1498409551006799538-03960790 (storage.googleapis.com).