tima's DIY RCM

[Neil.Antin]

Thanks! What specs indicate a high powered machine?

Also- Are you saying that 0.27 RPM for 11 minutes in a high powered machine risks damage but 0.5 RPM for 11 minutes in a high powered machine does not risk damage? I am trying to understand what is more important when it comes to damage. Total time or submerged time per revolution.

A UT tank specs do not always indicate the real power especially for the inexpensive Chinese units. You can measure the power draw using an inexpensive watt meter and measure how quickly the bath heats from UT alone (heaters de-energized). Ultimately most UT power into the tank (absent losses if the tank is thin and vibrates) converts to heat which heats the bath. The Elmasonic P-series and say the 6L P60H https://www.elma-ultrasonic.com/fil...lgeraete/Elmasonic_P/PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf heats the bath quite quickly and you will see where the Elmasonic has multiple UT power rating - effective and peak. People who serially clean records with the Elmasonic may install a pump/filter with radiator to keep the bath temperature under control. An example is detailed in Chapter XIV of this free book - https://thevinylpress.com/precision-aqueous-cleaning-of-vinyl-records-3rd-edition/

For risk of damage, it's four variables, UT frequency, power, temperature and continuous exposure time (not total accumulated time). This post (and the linked book) gives the basic thumb-rules for UT https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ultrasonic-cavitation-cleaning-explained.36690/post-870704. Lower kHz produces a larger cavitation bubble that when it collapses produces a cavitation intensity greater than higher kHz machines.

EDIT: One other variable is the record itself with some (for unknown reasons) more susceptible than others.

 

[tima]

Thanks! What specs indicate a high powered machine?

Effective (nominal) power and peak power are relevant to a high powered machine. Worth comparing when looking machine choices.

See the technical data chart in this post for Elmasonic tanks:

tima's DIY RCM

FWIW, I use Zippo, primarily to remove stickers from sleeves, but it works wonders on paint and other similar substances. It evaporates very quickly, however, so there is no ability to soak. Where does this paint even come from?!

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[rDin]

One of my P60H finally arrived. The other is stuck in consumer hell.

@tima, I am experimenting with the new machine, following in your footsteps essentially, and was looking at the 37/80hz switching mode you use for the wash. Do you still do that? Following @Neil.Antin's book advice I'm starting with 0.5RPM for records in the tank (this is where Neil jumps in to tell me I've misunderstood...) and the first thing I noticed was that doing that meant that each half of the record was subjected to only one of 37hz or 80hz as the spin rate matches the 30 second rate for each frequency...

Can I ask have you noticed this - what rate are you spinning at to avoid the crossover? And do you think there's actually any benefit to this switching method. Using the Kirmuss/Degritter here I started in the Kirmuss with 35khz to remove any top "soil" and better expose the grooves ready for the Degritter. I was intending to do same with the P60H but thought I'd try the multi-mode because why not?!

 

[dminches]

Why can’t you do 10 minutes at one frequency and 10 at the other? That’s what I do.

 

[rDin]

Why can’t you do 10 minutes at one frequency and 10 at the other? That’s what I do.

That's what I currently do. Was intrigued by [t]he multi-mode...

 

[dminches]

That's what I currently do. Was intrigued by he multi-mode...

I only use multi mode for degassing.

 

[Neil.Antin]

(this is where Neil jumps in to tell me I've misunderstood...)

Nope, the 0.5-rpm is optimum. However, based on the process @tima has been using and working with others, this the recommended operation as addressed in the book:

XIV.6.7 For information, the cleaning process shown in Figure 57 and Figure 56 operates the Elmasonic P120H (and Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.015%) for 10-min auto-cycling between 37-kHz and 80-kHz; then 10-min at 80-kHz; and then 10-min in the Elmasonic™ S120H 37-kHz for the final rinse

 

[tima]

One of my P60H finally arrived. The other is stuck in consumer hell.

@tima, I am experimenting with the new machine, following in your footsteps essentially, and was looking at the 37/80hz switching mode you use for the wash. Do you still do that? Following @Neil.Antin's book advice I'm starting with 0.5RPM for records in the tank (this is where Neil jumps in to tell me I've misunderstood...) and the first thing I noticed was that doing that meant that each half of the record was subjected to only one of 37hz or 80hz as the spin rate matches the 30 second rate for each frequency...

Can I ask have you noticed this - what rate are you spinning at to avoid the crossover? And do you think there's actually any benefit to this switching method. Using the Kirmuss/Degritter here I started in the Kirmuss with 35khz to remove any top "soil" and better expose the grooves ready for the Degritter. I was intending to do same with the P60H but thought I'd try the multi-mode because why not?!

XIV.6.7 For information, the cleaning process shown in Figure 57 and Figure 56 operates the Elmasonic P120H (and Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.015%) for 10-min auto-cycling between 37-kHz and 80-kHz; then 10-min at 80-kHz; and then 10-min in the Elmasonic™ S120H 37-kHz for the final rinse

rDin - Neil describes my protocol with wash tank and rinse tank. I agree if you have a machine capable of dual frequencies, use them both! Also I use the Elma's degas function for 10 minutes before the start of a cleaning cycle. Congratulation on the P60s.

 

[rDin]

Apologies, I made a mistake above with the RPM. I was running TWICE speed, eg 1RPM, which threw off my calculations. I have now corrected.

Can I ask though, what's the thinking behind the first pass using multi-frequencies and 80% power? What does this achieve that say running the first 10 minutes at 37khz@100% and the second at 80khz@100% doesn't? Sorry if this has already been explained elsewhere.

 

[Neil.Antin]

Can I ask though, what's the thinking behind the first pass using multi-frequencies and 80% power? What does this achieve that say running the first 10 minutes at 37khz@100% and the second at 80khz@100% doesn't?

The auto-cycling 37/80-kHz gets the best ability to remove the top layer of detritus to leave only the smallest particles for the final 80-kHz. The top layer(s) of detritus can be a combination of detritus. Using only 37-kHz may be beneficial in removing the big stuff only to expose a layer of smaller stuff that it does not work as well on, noting that this layering is [edit] 'not' uniform across the record.

When I was doing cleaning performance testing years ago with the Navy, we did tests to clean grease from threaded rod which somewhat represent a record groove. We were using a very powerful solvent which dissolved the oil component of the grease leaving inorganic filler of which the solvent was useless. Thats the analogy I am using.

You want to get the 'heavy' stuff off of which the composition is uncertain. The auto-cycling 37/80-kHz provides an optimum scrubbing action to do this, while the final 80-kHz is just a polish.

 

[Jim in Missouri]

The auto-cycling 37/80-kHz gets the best ability to remove the top layer of detritus to leave only the smallest particles for the final 80-kHz. The top layer(s) of detritus can be a combination of detritus. Using only 37-kHz may be beneficial in removing the big stuff only to expose a layer of smaller stuff that it does not work as well on, noting that this layering is uniform across the record.

When I was doing cleaning performance testing years ago with the Navy, we did tests to clean grease from threaded rod which somewhat represent a record groove. We were using a very powerful solvent which dissolved the oil component of the grease leaving inorganic filler of which the solvent was useless. Thats the analogy I am using.

You want to get the 'heavy' stuff off of which the composition is uncertain. The auto-cycling 37/80-kHz provides an optimum scrubbing action to do this, while the final 80-kHz is just a polish.

Didn't want to remain totally silent on this. I'm very interested in the discussion and rDin s decision to up his game. I've just been consumed with other things here totally unrelated to vinyl, admittedly things nowhere near as pleasant as just letting the music take me.

 

[Neil.Antin]

noting that this layering is uniform across the record.

Meant to say "...noting that this layering is not uniform across the record".

 

[rDin]

You want to get the 'heavy' stuff off of which the composition is uncertain. The auto-cycling 37/80-kHz provides an optimum scrubbing action to do this, while the final 80-kHz is just a polish.

Got it, thanks. So, the first pass is the main clean, and the second the final polish. Why only 80% power?

 

[tima]

Got it, thanks. So, the first pass is the main clean, and the second the final polish. Why only 80% power?

I suspect 37/80 for 10 minutes at 80% power is aimed at not running the 37kHz at full power. The rated power for the P120H I have for wash is 330W nominal and 1320W peak -- a relatively powerful RCM. I don't know quite how that ties with the P60H. You may may be able to run the first cycle at 100% power.

I did 37khz for 10 minutes and 80kHz for 10 minutes for several years. I found no problems with that. The revision to the first cycle, let's say it is a refinement courtesy of Neil.

I say feel free to experiment -- this is how we learn.

 

[tima]

@rDin -- maybe you said already. What rotisserie are you planning to use with the P60H?

 

[rDin]

I grabbed this one:

Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Cleaning - CleanerVinyl Pro (12 Records Per Batch)

CleanerVinyl record cleaning machines are easy to use and affordably priced. Restore the original glory of your vintage vinyl records. Ultrasonic cleaning removes dirt and dust touch free without damage.

www.cleanervinyl.com

Note, I'm not cramming 12 records onto it. 3 max, noting Neil's spacing data in his book.

I looked at the Kuzma rig but wasn't convinced it would be the right size for the P60H without requesting a custom build, and so took the path of least resistance. The CleanerVinyl does the job. Not sure about its reliability over time, but will find out.

I say feel free to experiment -- this is how we learn.

Never plan to stop!

 

[rDin]

I did 37khz for 10 minutes and 80kHz for 10 minutes for several years. I found no problems with that. The revision to the first cycle, let's say it is a refinement courtesy of Neil.

Neil... any specific advice for the P60?

 

[Neil.Antin]

Neil... any specific advice for the P60?

Like @tima says, "I say feel free to experiment -- this is how we learn.".

However, keep in mind that the P60 us a powerful unit for its size and will heat up pretty quickly. If you are serial cleaning, keep an eye on the bath temperature. Also, your specific requirement to keep the TDS very, very low may compromise using a pumped filter system because when you drain the tank, some water is left in the pump/filtration system, requiring the added step of a fill, flush and drain to get yourself back to near 0-ppm. You can try operating the pump/filtration system with an inline demineralizer, but you would need a fairly large demineralizer cartridge to support a flow rate that filter the 6L tank in a reasonable time and recall that tank filtration is simply not tank volume divided by pump flow rate. That only works if you pump the UT tank to a separate tank and then pump it back.

Your requirements are most the severe of anyone I have ever worked with cleaning records. I did this routinely when I was doing it professionally, but I had much larger budgets and space. If you decide you want to clean serially that would add radiator the standard ones used for gaming computers are copper, and it adds copper ions that raises the TDS. I found only one company that sold an inexpensive aluminum core radiator that has proven successful in not raising TDS (its listed in book, Chapter XIV). Otherwise, you are looking at a stainless-steel radiator, and they are available, but they are not inexpensive. You have to just compromise at only cleaning a few records before refreshing the UT tank.

For large scale deionizers, you in the UK have lots of options for large cylinders (many sellers) such as https://www.daqua.co.uk/divessels.htm, and you have options for the mixed bed resin to use https://www.daqua.co.uk/resins.htm all the way to the Purolite NRW324 Nuclear Grade Mixed Bed Resin which is as good as you are going to get, but not in expensive. But you want to talk to the seller to make sure with your incoming water TDS, you get the right resin to get what you want, which is near 0-TDS measured with your TDS device. Note that when you really get into high purity water, we're not measuring TDS, we're measuring conductivity or the inverse resistivity. I use TDS around record cleaning just to keep it simple and inexpensive.

Take care,
Neil

 

[tima]

I looked at the Kuzma rig but wasn't convinced it would be the right size for the P60H without requesting a custom build, and so took the path of least resistance.

Off the top I think the Kuzma RD would work if it can get low enough. It does have height adjustment. It is high quality, makes it simple to go from wash to rinse, but it is expensive.

Be that as it may, the one you chose should be fine. I'm imagining you can ... declamp from the wash and move to the rinse ... 3 records should be manageable. You could clamp to the outside for drying. Just speculating how to use it.

 

[rDin]

Off the top I think the Kuzma RD would work if it can get low enough. It does have height adjustment. It is high quality, makes it simple to go from wash to rinse, but it is expensive.

It was the width of the Kuzma rig - I couldn't see whether that was adjustable in any way to the narrowness of the P60...?