Wall Outlets

[MylesBAstor]

So that with all equipment on, but playing no music, we could measure the difference in ambient room noise?

How many db's are we talking about here?

Put your measurement equipment away and listen to the sound. The drop in the noise floor is not subtle. Or what a crappy, corroded, arced and pitted receptacle does to the sound is certainly audible.

Why is it that dirty and oxidized RCA connections can be heard and bad AC connections can't? You're telling me that these 25 cent receptacles don't corrode?

 

[FrantzM]

Rich

I am an audiophile and have in my days spent great amount of hard earned money toward such ..tweaks... If these contribute in any way to make you enjoy your system more then one could deem them, priceless ..
The only problem is that on an objective basis there is nothing to support claims of superiority .. They are thus in my estimation overpriced. I am trying to remain nice and succeeding thus the use of the euphemism "overpriced" instead or a more appropriate term...
It looks however they (Oyaide) are doing brisk business ..more power (pun intended) to them ...

 

[MylesBAstor]

Rich

I am an audiophile and have n my days spent great amount of hard earned money toward such ..tweaks... If these contributes in any way to make you enjoy your system more then one could deem them, priceless ..
The only problem is that on an objective basis there is nothing to support claims of superiority .. They are thus in my estimation overpriced
It looks however they are doing brisk business ..more power (pun intended) to them ...

You certainly have every right to question the price!

Now, the one thing to bear in mind is what is the cost when these products are made on a relatively small scale. Roll out 5 million and the cost comes down to quarters. Make a run of 5000 and the costs soar.

 

[Gregadd]

Of course we, audiophiles, will hear these differences .. The only problem is that not knowing the presence of the Oyaide outlets makes us lose that exhalted hearing acuity but once we know we are listening to an Oyade, such acuity quickly returns .. And of course it is superior to all other outlet out there, until some other company manages to convince us that their $ 750 outlet and faceplate combo is even better ...

Frantz could you please cite is to the properly conducted DBT that you rley on for that argument. otherwise your using the lack of a DBT to prove your point. IMO that proves nothing.

 

[fas42]

Wall outlets, the quality thereof, are one of the myriad things that can affect sound quality. My philosophy now, but wasn't in earlier days, is to assume that the outlet is the crappiest piece of junk imaginable and leave it that way: you only start to try and fix up power supply quality problems once you've drawn the juice out of the wall.

Why? Because there may be an outlet on the other side of the wall on the same spur that's as dodgy as hell, and you can't do anything about it for whatever reason, and it completely undoes all the good your expensive outlet is contributing to the situation. The more I've delved into sorting out all this devious stuff the messier it became, so now I'm trying to completely rationalise my approach to it ...

Frank

 

[naturephoto1]

Rich

I am an audiophile and have in my days spent great amount of hard earned money toward such ..tweaks... If these contribute in any way to make you enjoy your system more then one could deem them, priceless ..
The only problem is that on an objective basis there is nothing to support claims of superiority .. They are thus in my estimation overpriced. I am trying to remain nice and succeeding thus the use of the euphemism "overpriced" instead or a more appropriate term...
It looks however they (Oyaide) are doing brisk business ..more power (pun intended) to them ...

Frantz,

You can look at the comments made by Mike Lavigne in the thread linked below from Audiogon; I do not think that Mike is still using the same Power Cords at this point and I believe he is error by stating Oyaide RS-1, I think these are the R1:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1181870845&read&keyw&zzevolution+acoustics

Rich

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz could you please cite is to the properly conducted DBT that you rley on for that argument. otherwise your using the lack of a DBT to prove your point. IMO that proves nothing.

Greg

It is a sunny Sunday morning here in Miami, FL. I will not entertain a discussion about DBT. If you want to believe that these outlets make an improvement to the sound of a system go ahead and transfer some of your funds to the manufacturers of said items.

 

[Gregadd]

Greg

It is a sunny Sunday morning here in Miami, FL. I will not entertain a discussion about DBT. If you want to believe that these outlets make an improvement to the sound of a system go ahead and transfer some of your funds to the manufacturers of said items.

It's partly cloudy (63 dgrees outside according to the free bank thermometer)in Leesburg, VA where I'm sitting in Starbucks enjoying thier overpriced coffee and free wi-fi. You insinuated that ones opinion of the wall outlets might change if you did not they were present. I just wondered if that was mere speculation or you had some proof of that.

I think I made it clear that while I do engage in the occaisional tweak I think the money is far better spent on a superior preamp for e.g. than an expensive power cord attached to it. OTOH members Like Mike Lavigne and Steve WIlliams already own what they consider the best to be offered.They have systems capable of revealing the nuances such tweaks may provide.

 

[mep]

If this is the criteria, then the most "revealing" system is going to be the one that delivers the lowest noise and distortion, and the flattest frequency response, at the listener's ears. And if that is the criteria, then "as ones' system gets better and better" it will most certainly get digital, solid state and headphone-based.

Tim-are you saying that we if we want a revealing system we should all have a stereo just like yours?

And it won't even be really pleasant headphones like big, dynamic Sennheisers that, while revealing an awful lot of detail, are deliberately warmed-up to make them sound a bit more like speakers in a room. This kind of revealing will be maximized by dry, flat, analytical, revealing headphones. And most of us would think it all reveals a bit too much. Even me. Tim

Are you saying that your revealing stereo really doesn’t sound very good?

 

[Steve Williams]

Well I don't use Oyaide but I do use Hubbell hospital grade outlets which are modestly priced compared to Oyaide and they have no $350 face plates but I bet they perform every bit as good as the Oyaide

 

[mep]

Perhaps I will start a thread on this subject. There are folks with 1 or 2% distortion in their tube electronics and then add in the2%+ distortion in their speakers and add in the frequency response aberrations and they claim to hear more inof buried in the cd or lp.....vs a system with 0.001% distortion in the electronics and the same speaker and room. How can that tube system be more revealing?

I know that what you just wrote sounds like a dichotomy, but I really don’t think It is. When you make a change to your system that enables you to hear things that you never knew existed in a recording that you have heard a zillion times, your system is now more revealing. It is now telling you more of the truth. That’s what “revealing” means to me-that I’m now hearing more information. And that doesn’t have to come from using tubes with 1% distortion. The same thing can happen by using SS devices with their impeccable measurements.

More revealing of what? Whats in the cd or lp or whats added harmonically that our ears respond more to and think its more details....it aint easy as one might think. Tom

More revealing of information that exists in your recordings that wasn’t being decoded entirely before. I’m pretty sure that we have all had some “ah ha” moments in our lives when we heard new things jump out of recordings that we know well and didn’t hear before. However, if you are still listening to the same system you have had for 30 years, of course those days have come and gone because no improvements are being made and you are stuck in a stereo time warp. Every day is Groundhog Day.

 

[FrantzM]

Greg

I would say that my former system was as revealing as they get (Entire Burmester Electronics and MG 20.1 ... Outlets made no difference and I have heard the absence of contribution from many in system similar to Mike ans Steve's ... Call me a non believer ... I am comfortable with that .. I don't see Oyaide in my future ever. And NO I didn't say that the perception changed simply the re-collection of said perception would change as in unable to reliably distinguish if the outlet is present or not ...

There is nothing to perceive in an outlet ... but they are reviewed and so have been the intelligent chip and the magic pebbles and the Blackbody and ... a long list of ... far from inexpensive components whose contributions to one's system range from none to imagined something ...

P.S. No You've done it .. Day started sunny and bright now it is getting cloudy ... !!

 

[Gregadd]

Frantz My apolgy for raining on your parade. If i have the power to change the weather(and not just your perception of it) I'm in the wrong profession.
I gues you are saying you just expressed your opinion. That's fine with me

Congrats on your fine sytem of Maggies and Burneister. The Maggies repesent a fine value. The Burmester is probably inflated becaue its' imported.

 

[RogerD]

And one of our members, Albert Porter, markets a very reasonably priced outlet for audiophiles. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?powrdist&1320090742

As far as cryo Rx, the same debate exists in the music industry. Some musicians claim that cryo Rx improves the sound of their instruments and others can't hear any difference.

I use Albert's cryo'd Hubbells and yes they do drop the noise floor. I think that the better connection they offer provides a better ground and also reduces EMI/RFI contamination.

As far as tube vs SS, that debate has raged since the beginning of audiophile awareness. My very recent take is that between my tube preamp and my SS preamp the tube yields a larger sound footprint with a edge to nuance,but other than that it's a draw. The tube preamp has more internal capacitance so the low end is more,but that is just design dependent. I can switch between the two within tenths of a second,so I get a pretty good comparison.

I use ferrites on all my cables and that has increased clarity more than the Hubbell's by far.

 

[mep]

I want to refocus here a bit and clarify my own thoughts. I am not surprised that replacing an existing well-used wall receptacle with a brand new receptacle that is well made would possibly lower noise somewhat. We all know that we should do periodic maintenance on our systems and clean all of our RCA jacks and plugs. Why? Because they tend to get oxidized/dirty over time and they sound better when we clean them. I don’t see a wall outlet as being any different here other than the wall socket is carrying much higher voltages and current than what our RCA jacks are seeing.

The reason I started this thread was because I was surprised that people were writing reviews of wall sockets and proclaiming things like wall socket A has much better bass than wall socket B and on and on. First of all, changing out a wall socket is not a 5 minute task. By the time you unplug your gear, turn off the breaker, remove the existing wall socket, wire in the new one, plug your gear back in and wait 3 or more hours for it to warm up again, who remembers what wall socket A sounded like? I would think there would have to be some fairly profound differences in the sound to overcome the audible memory failings. I know if I was a reviewer and my editor handed me a wall socket to review, I wouldn’t be a happy camper. But that’s just me.

 

[FrantzM]

Well I don't use Oyaide but I do use Hubbell hospital grade outlets which are modestly priced compared to Oyaide and they have no $350 face plates but I bet they perform every bit as good as the Oyaide

Oh yes they do ...

 

[Steve Williams]

I only bought and installed the Hubbell hospital grade outlets not because I felt they sounded better but rather power cords just seem to lock into them and remain steadfast throughout..no other reason than that

 

[Mike Lavigne]

earlier this month i posted this on the 'speed kills' thread;

my most recent humbling experience regarding distortion is with duplex outlets.

when i built my room 7 years ago i used Jena Labs cryo'd outlets. i'd used them in my previous room and liked them. then 5 years ago a friend told me about the Oyaide R-1 outlets. i tried 5 of them in my room; i still kept 5 of the Jena Labs outlets next to the new R-1's. the R-1's were much better in every way. lower noise, increased vividness, better leading edge precision, more body. i had a number of local friends visit to hear the A/B with the Jena's. easy improvement. i replaced the other 5 with the R-1's....and have enjoyed them for the last 5 years.

a few weeks back i was speaking to this same friend about a Lp disk flattner since my new NVS tt does not have vaccuum hold down. i asked him if he had any other items that had rocked his world lately, and he reluctantly mentioned the Furutech GPX-D Rhodeium duplex outlets. he said it reluctantly since he sold me the R-1's 5 years prior. he said the GPX-D outlets were 100% copper contacts, that the R-1's used an alloy and did grip well, but the pure copper sounded better. the GPZ-D outlets solved the pure copper grip problem with a stainless steel band behind the pure copper to allow a proper grip on the plug. also; on the GPX-D everything was grounded and it was a solid as a rock. he said he was replacing his R-1's with the GPX-D's as he could afford to.

this person has high cred to me so i figured why not?

so 2 Sunday's ago he came over and installed 10 of them. btw; after he removed the first R-1 he demonstrated the build difference by dropping both outlets on my countertop; the R-1 had a kind of a hollow prang when it hit, the GPX-D a solid 'thud'.

after installation, at first it seemed like they were better but the sound was closed in and the life was missing. then i went around the back of my speakers and turned the tweeters up from -1.8 to -1. the (previously un-noticed) distortion (brightness) of the R-1's had caused me to need to reduce my tweeter output 1.8 notches below 'flat'. now i only needed 1 notch below flat to get the life with the GPX-D's.

my bass was now more linear, with increased dynamic snap and slam. more ambient information. there was a more natural flow and energy. but the biggest benefit was the precision of everything. every recording was now more solid. little things which i thought had been part of the music were now gone and only music remained. this was a big step. the music was more involving and compelling.

my power grid and system noise floor is amazingly low between the Equi=tech, power cords, and all the reasonance control. i cannot say how much difference these duplex outlets would make in every system. but on the path to musical reproduction truth these $240 each outlets really earned their keep.

and until i heard the absense of distortion i would never have thought it was there.

if you don't want to spend the money to optimize your power grid then good on you. but as you go down the road of system optimization eventually it leads you to every damn thing. and every single item in the power grid has a sound......particularly any connection. connectivity, resonance, metalurgy will all be variables. optimize each one and distortion gets reduced.

stick your tongue out at this if you like. but that does not change cause and effect.

if we really are interested here in 'What's Best' then this is what it takes.

i'm not saying that Furutech GTX-D Rhodium outlets are the best, because i have not heard every outlet.

btw Frantz; i do have that Oyaide $379.99 carbon fibre outlet cover.

back on the 'speed kills' thread, Frantz suggested i was inferring magical qualites to duplex outlets. here is part of my response.

there is no magic involved in any of those issues.

the difference in the duplex outlets is simply the application of solid science to optimization of a step in the power grid chain. if you improve the metalurgy with pure copper instead of an alloy that's not magic. then you make the outlet more mechanically sound and reduce the reasonance that's not magic. then you 'ground' all the metal parts properly to eliminate areas of magnetic contamination that's also solid science. the question is not whether it's better but whether you can hear the difference, how much can you hear the difference, and is it worth it? go to the Furutech web site and read about the GTX-D Rhodeium outlet, then tell me where it suggests magic.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I hate to bring in Steves system and so will not comment directly on it. I am sure it sounds fantastic. I too own SET amps, and fully understand how they work, my avatar thingy is an ultra cheap and simple pubished design in Glass Audio. And, however, although you have heard real music in a studio setting and know what real music sounds like, I too hear live unamplified music about 6 times a year, and have access to the the rear of the stage with amplified music so I can hear things in more their natural state sometimes as well.

Having said that, I am also aware of the effects of harmonics generated by electronics and phase shift by transformers and dynamics generated by transformers, and SET amps do not duplicate the recorded signal as well as solid state (the bass area is an exception of course). That they sound better to you does not mean they reveal more of the signal as much as add more to the signal in the "right" places for some tastes. That is the fact and that is why one persons idea of revealing is not the same as anothers, for example read Tims post # 11 this thread.

I don't postulate except when I don't understand, and I have not made a thorough study of outlets and so I always investigate claims made by people who hear and it is always "better" this and that when they change out something. I know that power can be lost in the outlet but until the day comes when I have time to look into this "noise floor idea" with some type of instrument, I can postulate that a clean junction at the socket would be not generating very low amplitutde noise spikes due to micro arcing but the effects of anything beyond a normal tight connection in a normal metal socket bring out my BS detector.

Technically then, one should be able to replace thier cryo super socket with a new bog standard hospital grade socket and hear a difference....I don't think so. IMO any tight socket is a good socket...but I stand open for correction with measureable data...and as always...can one hear 0.02 db of difference, etc.

When you dont understand theory (and the limits of theory) it is easy to bash theory and say it does not explain things, but then everything you hear out of your stereo is from hard, cold factual bits of metal and other chemicals put together to create the weak "stereo" illusion. Theory might not explain how your ear works but it damn well can measure (atleast the electronics portion) anything happening to the signal. Preferences are another thing. Sometimes I feel like a s SET, sometimes I don't...

Tom

Well let's see Tom. On one hand, you purport yourself to be a scientist. On the other hand, you admit to never having carried out the said experiments and yet already have a conclusion. Not the way I did my experiments in the lab.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Tom said;

IMO any tight socket is a good socket...but I stand open for correction with measureable data...and as always...can one hear 0.02 db of difference, etc.

this is a simplistic way to look at the problem....and it turns out to be wrong. and i admit to thinking that way too. it's logical until you understand the whole picture of what is happening.

it is important to have a secure connection, but the metalurgy of the connection is also important, as is not harming the plateing on the plug. the Oyaide R-1's i used for 5 years have a super tight connection with the plug; however, they also use an alloy to get the gripping strength. the grip is so tight that it stresses the whole outlet plugging and un-plugging, and the plateing on the plugs is harmed. the Furutech GTX-D Rhodeium duplex outlets use pure copper with a stainless steel band behind the pure copper for tightness. it's secure but not as tight as the R-1's.

and it sounds better. more linear, less distortion, less high frequency hash. you don't hear the difference until the hash is gone.

the challenge has always been getting enough grip with as close to pure copper as possible. less costly outlets have more modest efforts in this area. are they broken; no. good enough? not if you have heard what the GTX-D Rhodeium outlets sound like and care enough to get them.

Furutech has solved the problem.

does it measure better? i could not care less although my guess is that it does measure better.